Can Parkinson's be treated by fixing the methylation cycle?
 

New information regarding the methylation cycle and MTHFR gene mutations seem to strongly suggest that PD can be treated by fixing this. Maybe throwing L-Dopa at the symptoms may no longer be the best we can do!

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=news&dbid=42

See also a study below showing a link between MTHFR and Parkinson's'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24064257

Folks with a MTHFR 677 or 1298 gene mutation don't absorb B12 and their methylation cycle needs fixing. Has anyone had any success doing this?

Normal
 

My homocysteine levels have always been normal but here I am in the PD forum!

Hi Gerry,

Interesting. My homocysteine level is normal too, but I have one of the CBS mutations so apparently the CBS is upregulated, so I dump glutathione (dopamine) through the CBS gate too fast. One thing that was fascinating about the Hinz testing was that I had tons of dopamine in my urine so why is it not in the brain where it's needed? Maybe my always open CBS gate explains that. So I've lowered my intake of sulfur to close the CBS gate. Maybe that will help.

Homocysteine and Vitamin B12 Levels Related to MRI White Matter Abnormalities in Park
 

I'm sorry Zanpar, but I respectfully believe your statements are way overboard. There is absolutely NO new research that "strongly suggest that PD can be treated" by controlling the methylation cycle.

With regard to your first linked study, that's very old information, not new. That study was conducted, on mice, in 2001. Just because some whole foods supporter with a web site comments about it today doesn't make it any more recent than 13 years. The second study linked was just a meta analysis of older research on the MTHFR C677 polymorphism and the increase in risk of getting PD. Again, this relationship between the MTHFR polymorphism and susceptibility to PD has been know for years. However, the relationship in no way means that (1) this is an actual cause of PD; or (2) that changing levels of folate and/or ultimately homocysteine, will either stop or slow the progression of neural cell death. In fact, to quote directly from the study you have referenced:

Recent findings suggest that homocysteine levels are increased in PD patients (Allain et al. 1995; Kuhn et al. 1998; Yasui et al. 2000), but it is not known whether this alteration precedes disease onset. In addition, the clinical data are mainly from studies of patients treated with levodopa, a drug that may itself affect homocysteine levels (Miller et al. 1997; Muller et al. 2001). It therefore remains unclear whether folate deficiency and/or elevated homocysteine levels play a critical role in the pathogenesis of PD.

What I personally find most interesting about this research is that it has shown that the adverse effects of homocysteine on dopaminergic cells is ameliorated by administration of the antioxidant uric acid. This may be the reason why there has been some recent studies that have shown possible progression slowing with the use of Inosine (which raises blood levels of uric acid). In that regard, the NIH is going to begin, later this year, a large multi-centered clinical study researching inosine on it's potential as a progression slowing drug. I'm not sure if they have posted the study yet, but I am sure that they haven't yet begun to recruit patients. This may be a better way to test your hypothesis re: MTHFR rather than taking B-12 shots, and certainly better than just increasing dietary folate.

Thanks,

Gary

Hi Gary,

From what I can discover from researching the methylation cycle, it seems apparent that this cycle clearly involves the creation of glutithione and dopamine, which are certainly factors in PD, so if broken would affect PD symptoms to some extent. I'm not saying it's the fix all solution. Throwing excess L-dopa at the symptoms may not be the best solution. The research may not have caught up to this yet, but I'm suggesting that there is something to be learned from the methylation cycle which pertains to PD treatment.

I agree that there is interest in the methylation cycle and its relationship with PD, and, ultimately you may be correct that it will lead to new treatments. However, that is much different than stating that new research strongly suggests that PD can be treated by fixing this. The research on the relationship between PD risk and problems with methylation is decades old. What would interest me, and probably many other members, would be if you can provide current research which gives evidence that controlling the cycle can be interventional (slow progression) or provide symptomatic relief. I certainly hope this can be found and, again, it's one of the reasons I'm interested in the inosine research. I was just unaware of any methylation research that supports your statements and would like to read it if available.

Dr Yasko and Dr Ben Lynch have apparently had good success treating autism, chronic fatigue patients etc. based on the methylation cycle mutations. I'm thinking PD patients also will benefit. Just not sure when big Pharma and NIH studies will get around to studying this in earnest (if ever), or if I have the years to wait. Just sayin . . . If I find any more recent studies I'll post. Best regards!

It's a big problem when totally unrelated data and reserach are sued to support a hypothesis.

The internet is great for something but it can also confuse,especially a little big of knowledge isn't the same thing as having the right amount of understanding ofa topic to really understand it in all its complexity.

I think you cand ask the question, but to expect the answer to come in a quick web link simply isn't going happen.

I would love this to be the missing liking to the PDpuzzle, I really would, but we are so different and science is only just starting to understand the reasons why a condition can have multiple causes. I think PD will eventually be on of those, and perhaps this will be one of our answers.

I caught a answers to a similar question, from this forum, being cited elsewhere to support a hypothesis. It was never meant to do that, so I am writing this for anyone who may see these being used in the say way. It's not evidence, its not even hypothesis, it is supposition, by people like me, who are hungry to find answers that other sources are not giving.

Please don't cite posts as evidence, and yes I am looking at someone posting on this thread.

I agree that PD will eventually be very treatable via multiple means as there do seem to be multiple causes (head injuries, toxins, stress etc.). All of us here are looking for answers, some which may be right in front of us (or not), while others will perhaps be discovered based on hypothesis that are presented here and elsewhere.

you had tons of dopamine in your urine? before or after you took mucana?
if before, where in the world did that dopamine come from? your're saying glutathione is a precursor to dopamine? btw, dopamine can't pass thru the BBB.

i take sinemet, carbidopa/l-dopa, and i get very nauseated if i take more than 200mg in 1 dose, i took A 25/250 TABLET once and was sick to my stomach which i assume was from the l-dopa getting converted into dopa in the blood stream.

I had alot of dopamine in my urine before I took the mucuna and about a third more after taking it. I don't understand why my body would produce excess dopamine and then dump it. I Guess it was being converted in the body/blood to dopamine but not in the brain. I understand dopamine doesn't pass thru the BBB, but L-dopa does. I never got nauseous at all. L-dopa andTyrosine are precursors to dopamine. Glutatione apparently allows dopamine to be more effective and is a master antioxidant, so if it's in short supply more damage can be done to mitrochondria and brain dopamine neurons.

The video below from Dr Rostenburg discusses the role of glutathione, dopamine and the methylation cycle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eq28PCvfsg

I have only anecdotal evidence on this question and in time I'm sure the hardcore research will catch up. Yes, I think that correcting methylation is a worthy pursuit in efforts to heal from pd. But you need to have a sophisticated knowledge of biochemistry to fine tune methylation pathways. The folks who have that knowledge plus the clinical expertise are docs who work under the rubric of functional medicine, integrative medicine or Bioindividualised medicine.

Rather than throwing b12 or SAMe or glutathione at the problem in a random fashion they first run functional tests to see how u are performing as a methylator, not just looking at serum levels. Then they know what precursors to introduce, when and where and how to avoid triggering feedback inhibition. They also investigate underlying causes. Leaky gut seems to be extremely common. Triggers for that are common allergens like gluten, dairy or soy.

Folks are very focused on gluten as an issue but I suggest that you consider parasites and fungal overgrowth equally as they are just as implicated in dysbiosis. My functional med doc says that 80 percent of stool samples she submits are coming back positive for parasites (including my own and an acquaintance with pd). The problem is there if you look for it. This creates two problems. Toxins getting thru and malnutrition. I have shown up some major nutritional deficiencies which are now being corrected. I am also being treated for fungal overgrowth in gut as well as parasite. There's a long road ahead. Parasites are not easy to eliminate.

One such doc I spoke to said that when you treat such underlying conditions in pwps, their symptoms either abate or vanish completely. Worth a try. Pd aside, we'd all benefit from cleaning up our gut.

sorry, i can't take a video from a chiropractor seriously. you can believe what you want.
tyrosine is converted to dopamine in the brain and i believe also the adrenal glands, the eyes - i think forms melanin? and this is tightly regulated, how do you explain how eating ounces of tyrosine in an egg or piece of meat doesn't cause you to die by massive production of dopamine and every other enzyme in your system and on the flip side, why don't you exhibit pd symptoms if you fast for a week or don't eat protein? in addition, selegiline, a non-reversible mao-b inhibitor, was shown years ago not to slow pd progression, same with vitamin C and vitamin E.

people taking dopamine agonists have been shown to progress at the same rate as those taking l-dopa. NO DOPAMINE.

i guess my point is post whatever you want but i object to your constant claim that dopamine is harmful. before sinemet, what kind of life do you think pd'ers could look forward to? please think about the affect of what you post here on the less informed.

one double blinded trial with IV glutathione did not improve pd symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19230029
there's 1 study on nasal glutathione tested on pd'ers but no results published yet

Very informative link. Synthetic L-Dopa has definitely been shown to be damaging.

Soccertease, That study on iv glutathione in pwps is meaningless. It does not address individual genomes or idiosyncratic methylation defects or attempt to correct methylation so that the body produces its own glutathione. This would take months of trial and error on a case by case basis.

Excellent point. The below study seems to show the importance of incorporation of methylation factors (B12, Hcy etc.) when taking L-Dopa to prevent L-Dopa caused neuropathy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24099722

Neuropathy and levodopa in Parkinson's disease: evidence from a multicenter study!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836370

i strongly disagree it is meaningless. it was a small study with just 10 patients getting the glutathione but they got A LOT OF GLUTATHIONE over 4 weeks. neither the control group nor the treatment group showed a significant change so placebo affect was not occurring and there were no adverse affects. i don't think you read the study. i point out this study whenever someone asks about IV glutathione when they stumble across the PERLMUTTER videos on youtube which costs thousands of dollars, i see some value in letting pd'er know about this study. so you think it was a total waste of time because the results were negative? that's what science is about.

sure maybe they didn't test for a METHYLATION mutation, maybe everyone was making enough of their own glutathione but the study was not worthless. it also shows that you don't have to have millions of dollars to run a study on a supplement nor the support from a drug company.

i doubt BASTYR did any gene testing for their nasal glutathione trial.

personally, i don't think anyone on this board is qualified to discuss methylation in a meaningful way. it just gets down to posting links that look good, that's not a discussion.

it is a study, not some anecdotal 3rd hand account. murieanne, you think that study is meaningless, what kind of study would you like to see? remember that the placebo affect is very strong in pd patients, they really want the treatment to work.

congrats zanpar, both very useful links IMHO. I do take 1000micrograms of B-12 daily. i tried daily B-12 injections for a month, a friend who is a compounding pharmacist asked me to try them, felt no benefit.

Soccertease, exactly where in the terms of use on this forum does it say I have to be 'qualified' to contribute to a discussion here? Are you trying to imply a right to moderate posts now?

I think other contributors to this thread understand the points I'm making. At least they're not coming back at me in SHOUTY block capitals :)

That's great! I started taking 5mg Methyl B-12 and 1000 mcg 5-MTHF . Apparently the MTHF is necessary to start the methylation cycle. Folic acid is not good to take as it is synthetic and can't be utilized much and may cause other problems.

I agree. Where do you find such a doctor who is gut and DNA literate?

Zanpar, I sent u a private message. Check your inbox.

Read my post again. I said I thought noone here was qualified to discuss this in a meaningful way, i didn't say there should be no discussion. It seems everyone approaches this topic with their opinions set in concrete and only look for research that supports their opinion.

yes, i got angry when you said that study was meaningless, i totally disagree with you. especially since I tried IV glutathione and got no benefit. If that study had occurred before I got sucked in by the glutathione hype i would have saved hundreds of dollars.

Soccertease, I'm not quoting research to support my opinion. I'm simply proposing a more open minded approach to our problems. Iv glutathione may not improve most people's pd for a number of possible reasons:

1. They have additional coexisting methylation defects.

2. You can't leave the iv in for long enough.

3. It is a challenge to normalise anybody's physiology once they are on pd meds.

Personally, I think what is needed is to correct the methylation process itself so the person produces their own glutathione.

What works for one may not work for another! PD is a multi-headed critter from my experience. It's my understanding that posters don't have to have their posts approved by other forum users. It's my hope that we all work together to find some answers to the PD matter.

Excellent post. I agree!

For a good overview of how complicated methylation is, listen to

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/elevate...dr-tim-jackson

btw, this guy has a PH.D, he's not a medical doctor. everything he does seems to have a fee.

Medical doctors charge fees too. And his having a phd only reassures me.

he has a Ph.D in physical therapy. All I'm saying is there is a profit motive here to convince one they have a methylation problem so buyer beware. I pay my doctor to diagnose my problem and pick the appropriate treatment, that's far different from what this guy is doing. He can't diagnose you like a doctor can.

Thank you for this link and your other input on this subject. That's the great thing about these forums is the ability for each of us to post our opinions. I have viewed all of links that have been posted on this thread and have tried to get more detail on my own. From my perspective, I have to agree with soccertese. These videos all have a strong sense of being infomercials with the goal of selling services and products. I wish that at least one of these promoters would present some scientific backup when they make what appear to be factual statements.

I certainly don't know if there is any truth to their statements and will not make any judgments. We can each do as we see fit. What I am weary about is the knowledge that people with debilitating diseases are often targeted by promoters of untested, unreliable and unvalidated products, supplements, and services. They realize that many of us will try almost anything to find a cure or symptomatic relief.

Good luck. I hope that any forum members who elect to try the services of these "functional" health care providers will give us some anecdotal details of their experiences.

Good points. Of course there is the possibility that a profit motive also drives most research studies as well. Notwithstanding the above, I do believe that the methylation cycle exists and is important even essential to good health, regardless of whether someone makes money by promoting their supposed (or actual) expertise in this area. Just as with regular MD doctors, all of us need to carefully research and hopefully find the docs (MDs or functional) that can give us some real symptomatic relief/reversal. I predict that this area of doctoring on the molecular/dna level will bring a new era of exciting changes to how medicine is practiced in the next 3-5 years and beyond!

Hers is a great site. Just put in your doctors name and it tells you how much drugs he's prescribing in dollars and cents for big pharma. Well as which drugs and alot more. My doctor moved almost 400K worth last year and he was on the low side compared to most doctors. http://projects.propublica.org/checkup/

Wow, that's a great website. My MD did over $500k. Thanks for this!

so you are saying medicare pays the doctor for writing prescriptions? directly he/she gets nothing. without the RX writing privelage and the available drugs, there would be very little reason to see a doctor except for broken bones and minor ailments so indirectly they definately benefit since you have to usually visit a doc to get the initial RX but you don't have to see them for refills for a year. sure some docs get perks from drug companies/salespeople and might benefit owning stock in drug companies. but sometimes maybe the patient benefits?

http://www.propublica.org/article/ho...ares-drug-plan

‘Let the Crime Spree Begin’: How Fraud Flourishes in Medicare’s Drug Plan

Medicare Drug Program Fails to Monitor Prescribers, Putting Seniors and Disabled at Risk.

http://www.propublica.org/article/pa...heckup-mainbar

An interview with Dr terry wahls talking about functional medicine:

http://instantteleseminar.com/?event...0c1dc39d649e25

There are different types of cobalomin. Also different causes for B12 not arriving at point of need. If you take oral b12 but got no help from injections that is odd, does it have an effect?