Question about making money while on (or applying for) disability
 

Hi folks,

I am in the never ending process of the circus that is SSDI. I am waiting for a hearing date at this point and confident that I will be awarded SSDI.

Suddenly though, there is a possible issue. As I sat home, unable to work and barely able to care for myself - I decided that I needed to do something before depression became a serious factor. I decided to write. It wasn't steady - two or three hours at a time was about my limit, though there were days that I'd put in multiple sessions after a nap or rest. Twenty nine days later I stopped writing on page 355. I had written a novel.

No sense writing a novel and sticking it into a drawer I figured, so I sent it out to a publisher. Rather than the rejection letter I expected in four to six weeks, I got an e-mail back four days later complaining of the nights sleep I cost the him when he couldn't put it down. He wants it. There's a contract on the way and the advance is generous.

So, am I employed now? Is this considered work? When I went to the state to see if I could be retrained in the early stages of this disease, I asked about writing and they said that no, writing was 'art' not work. Ultimately, does this completely throw a wrench into disability?

congratulations that is great. and that is definitely inome.. lol. the question being does the income cross certain allowed amount thresholds over a period of time. it is a little complex and someone better than me can answer the question, I think it would be like freelancing and the earnings would be spread over the time it took to write the book, but I could be wrong maybe you will be rich nd famous and wont need disability

Thanks so much for responding Mark. Yeah, I mean, I guessed that it would be income - but how on earth do you calculate the time period? I wrote it during January but there seems to be a few factors involved - some I would not expect them to take into consideration, others I would. For instance:

1. When a friend asked how long it took and I replied twenty-nine days, she countered with, more like 49 years of experience. She's not wrong, although I wouldn't expect SSDI to care about that.

2. Now that I have a publisher, there are endless edits - and I am STILL doing that - though I should be done this week. But then there's cover art to arrange, back cover blurbs to ponder endlessly, e-mails back and forth to other authors for recommendations, etc.

3. Though the advance will be nice, typically royalties are paid annually. While a (random guess) $7000 check seems big, that's $583/month or $134/week.

I'm not looking to take from the system if I don't need it, but I haven't got dollar one at this point and I've been cutting up clothes for toilet paper as I try to live on nothing for the last eighteen months. Even if I did get hit with the lucky stick and make it big - I'd still take the back pay as pain and suffering for them telling me I didn't need it for the last eighteen months - on moral principle.

Which brings up another point... Can they make me continue writing once I've shown success? I mean, obviously, if hit with the inspiration, I will continue writing. But the reason the book got written so fast is simply because I had the book inside me. I don't know if I've got another one in me.

say that you wrote it over a year. then the income will be divided by that number of months. if they ask why you didn't tell them you were working say you didn't consider it work at the time and just decided to send it to a publisher on a whim. I don't know if they consider income quarterly or you can do yearly. you would have to ask someone else on that or ican go peek for you. I have nothing better to do right now lol. I would definitely want my back pay if I was you. edit. I did some research and it seems you can work while applying or appealing for ssdi as long as you only make or average a certain amount each month. if you go over that even if they approve they will reevaluate your approval so make sure the time period fits with the maximum allowable monthly income under ssdi rules

Mark, thank you so much. You've been extraordinarily helpful.

No they cannot make you continue to write, however they will say that you can, and if such is the case, including you having been published, you will lose your claim out of hand. Also, one of the predicate issues revolving around ssdi is the thorny issue of retraining(thats why they have a VE at your hearing)and educational experience. If you're able to pen complete novels within just thirty days, and SSA has verifiable proof of you having done so, including that generous advance, in my opinion you have absolutely no chance of prevailing at any level in the ssdi system, nor should you.

you're allowed to make a certain amount per month no matter what your skill is. even with 7000 over a number of months you still deserve the ssdi that was coming for you and I would get a good lawyer to sort out the details and get what you deserve

Glad you responded before I signed! Thank you.

No, you are not looking at this from the proper perspective, and you have an entirely imperfect understanding of work allowances as they pertain to SSDI. First of all, in my experience those with the hardest road to hoe to a fully favorable decision, are those that come from the most education, and the most skilled and professional of occupations, regardless of their disability. Most people who appear before an ALJ must prove that they are capable of a "less then sedentary RFC," that means that you are unfit to even answer telephones with breaks every thirty minutes or so! How hard does that become, convincing an ALJ that you are fully, totally disabled , unable to do even sedentary work, while at the same time you are working a part time job?

99.9% of the time, you will lose right there, as your credibility will be virtually nil with the ALJ. Now, toss in the OP's skills, he has penned a novel, in just thirty days, and he has been advanced a significant amount of money for his efforts! Maybe 1% of the total population is skilled enough to compete at such a level. Such a person would have highly transferable skills, regardless of his disability.

So, hopefully you begin to understand the obstacles, and the biggest one is your credibility. SSA could care less if you can't find work, or pay your bills, all SSA cares about is whether or not from their perspective, you are capable of doing so, thats all that they need do, prove to their satisfaction that you are "capable!"

Now, how capable do you think one might be in the eyes of the SSA if they are claiming complete, total disability, but are at the same time penning complete novels in just thirty days time, and being advanced substantial amounts of money for their efforts?

The op in my opinion has no claim, whats more they really shouldn't have one. This certainly doesn't mean that they cannot apply, it is their right to apply, but they will be contributing to the back log and delaying someone else's moment before the ALJ. In my opinion the op hasn't a chance or prevailing at the hearing level. ;)

Not so. The fault is probably mine for not being clear enough though. The advance comes after the contract is signed. I have not yet signed.

My doctor has suggested that if I were considering an attorney, to forgo that route because my medical condition is too severe to require one in order to be successful. Riding to the bus station to drop off my wife on Saturday morning required a trip to the ER because the trip was too taxing and I went into crisis. I'm thinking that if I can't take a ride to the bus station without risking my life, then I have a pretty fair chance at hearing.

However, based on your input, the contract will sit on my desk until after the hearing and we'll see how it goes.

Don't get me wrong here, your disability is however severe that it is, I am merely proceeding from the perspective of the SSA, and they turn down people every day with dire disabling conditions, they don't care in the least how tough it may be for you, they only care about what they can prove or demonstrate.

If you are under fifty years of age you must almost always establish a less then sedentary RFC, but other factors are also considered, especially education and professional occupations. Thats what that VE will be there for, he will take your skill sets and then convert them into other occupations that you can do, whether you feel you can or not being completely irrelevant, often such VE presented occupations don't even exist at all, no matter, if he says you can do them then you are now saddled with them.

As to your contract, thats up to you, but if I was able to secure such an opportunity I know which way I would be leaning.

Based on the posts in this thread, it seems that ALJ's need to be asking everyone if they have an unsigned contract for payment for work sitting on the desk at home waiting for the outcome of the disability hearing.

I think withholding pertinent information is also committing fraud.

Everyone here is speculating about how this will be treated by SSA. I don't think it is possible to know it advance. Using all your creative juices in a marathon writing session in a month may or may not mean that you can do that every day from then on. Obviously you didn't do it before that one session. There are plenty of one-hit wonders out there.

I think the ALJ should be told. You will have to report it at some point since there will be a paper trail and if someone decides to look back at your ALJ decision, it could be discovered that you were less than credible.

If you have an attorney, you should take his or her advice, since he or she knows the totality of your case.

If his claim be true, he must disclose it to the ALJ, and once an ALJ hears of that deed he is not very likely going to be paying his claim! One other thing, its not just about a one time creative juices event, or penning a book, its about "transferable skills!" Thats the whole idea behind the VE sitting in on these hearings.

Well, I'd sign the check and take the money and disclose it, who knows how long the SSDI process will take. A bird in the hand so to speak..

I'm sure there's some way to calculate it all somewhere on the forms or paperwork, many freelancers & contractors have sporadic income also.

Congratulations and hope you can write another book, and keep up those successes..

I find the comments in this thread strange. As if some have a vested interest in my not acquiring SSI. That is your right; perhaps we have different politics/morals/values/beliefs...

Here is what I do know:

I served my country's military earning two purple hearts and spent nine months in a cage as an enemy of the state in the former Soviet Union. I could have gotten disability then but didn't cause I was too young, too tough and too proud.

Though the nightmares and PTSD lost me many a nights sleep, I never called in sick to work but showed up every day and did my job.

I've had two heart attacks at work and finished my shift both times before driving myself to the hospital and getting a stint put in.

Never took a dime of the government though I qualified many times for food stamps, unemployment, etc.

I'm sick now. I can't work. I know this to be true. Yes, I did what I said and had my wife (a physical and massage therapist) there every step of the way working my body so I could continue working this book.

Should I have? Heck no. And don't tell my doctor I did it either or he'll kick my butt and unfortunately, for the first time in my life, I know I won't win that fight. I push myself; it's part of my makeup and, it'll be the cause of my death I'm sure - cause I don't always do what the doctor tells me to. I'm stubborn.

It took a lot for me to come to grips with the fact that I can't take care of my family any longer. And if you're American's, then I'm saddened that I can't take care of you folks any longer too. But to form an opinion that I shouldn't get disability because I am able to push myself beyond good sense or doctors orders is, in my opinion, unfair.

I hope you didn't take my post as being against your application for SSDI..

I meant go ahead and take the book money, you did earn it.. just state it as income in the proper section of the SSDI paperwork.
Perhaps some assistance will be needed to get it all figured out, but I'm sure they know how to fill out income like that correctly.

That money will help carry you though while waiting on the decision process.

Unless changing the paperwork at this stage will mess things up for you?:confused:


What is your book about?
Did you type, or handwrite it, or use voice recognition software?

The point I wanted to make is that no one here can really predict how this will impact the disability decision. Again, I think a valid argument can be made that since you had never written a book before, actually making some money for a one-time effort is not definitive proof that you can do this on a sustained basis. So it would require the totality of evidence for someone to make a decision and the only person whose opinion matters is the ALJ.

Have you also applied for service connected disability benefits with the VA?

I don't intend to minimize the effects of your POW experience, but if you still managed to drag yourself to work every day and do the job you were paid to do, SSA would not have found you disabled back then. Some people are more stoic than others, have stronger mental fortitude than others. We all handle adversity differently. I commend you for pushing through as long as you did and thank your for your service to our country.

I too am curious about this book, but you probably shouldn't tell us anything more until after your disability hearing. This is not the time or place.

Not at all...in fact, I wrote that before I saw your post. (There were only six minutes difference between our posts - I was typing and I don't type so fast.)

I dictated most of the book; my wife did the typing for me. Soo....I guess we can call that voice recognition software eh? :) Every so often we would take a break but then I'd get an idea I couldn't wait on and I'd type it out - but repetitive motion of any sort wears me out quickly and so I'm only good for a page or so.

That is the concern. It seems as if I sneeze there is a complete stop and a three month investigation over what the sneeze meant.

I think I'm going to take Janke's advice on this at this point.

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8072/148322.gif

Whole thread has a lot of useful & helpful info.


:hug:

Look, we all have a story, the painful reality is that the SSA really doesn't care, what they do care about is whether by their current standards you are able to work! You must understand, if you are under age fifty, in most instances you must prove that you are capable of less then sedentary work restriction, some circumstances allow for different allowances, either for or against! They turn down the claims of very ill people all the time, doctors are routinely discouraged, even horrified by the denial of their patients disability claims, thinking them no-brainers, when in fact they aren't!

It doesn't matter what we say or think here, in this medium, what matters is what is in your medical files, and whats in your work history. Most people applying for SSDI are low income, semi-skilled or less workers, those that are professional and educated beyond high school to include college and or grad school will find that they have a tough road ahead of them due to the nature of the systems reliance on the testimony of the VE!

It is my opinion that if you are in the position of having to confirm to an ALJ that yes, I wrote a novel last month, and then signed a contract in which I was advanced a substantial sum of money, that your credibility will be virtually nil in the mind of the ALJ as you submit a claim in which you are declaring complete, total disability, a less then sedentary RFC which translates as unable to even answer phones, keeping in mind that the vast bulk of this man/woman's face time with disability claimants is with those who are DoT classified "unskilled labor!"

I think an important part is being missed..
substantial gainful employment ??
Usually means working a 8 hr day/40 hrs a week or something similar I believe.
I'm sure there are complicating factors in some circumstances, they can be worked out.

To clarify-
The contract mentioned has NOT been signed yet..


oh you may have missed this question by Janke-
[Have you also applied for service connected disability benefits with the VA?]

I'm sorry Jo*mar (and Janke) sometimes this double vision byproduct makes reading challenging. (except when my wife writes me a love letter - then it's more fun with double vision!)

No, I haven't. A variety of reasons really...none of which translate well. But my primary disability at this point is one which there is no known cause and so it would be nearly impossible to make a service connection. Too, asking for help is something that I am new at - and frankly, I'm not very good at it. I'm getting help in so many area's of my life right now (and I can't go through the process without help), that one more thing is more than my plate or psyche can manage right now without doing irreparable damage to my sense of self - if that makes any sense.

@Skyking... I was taken aback and responded pretty unskillfully; forgive me for that. Your responses have probably done more to prepare me for the hearing than anyone. Sometimes I wear my heart on my sleeve - and I probably need to re-don my emotional combat fatigues before I walk into that hearing. You've helped me to see that and I sincerely thank you for that.

I wish you the best of luck man and thanks for serving

One reason to apply for service connected disability through the VA is to be able to obtain treatment for the specific conditions that can be attributed to your military service, even if those conditions did not cause you to be unable to work. My ex has loss of hearing directly attributable to his military service. If he needed treatment or evaluation for that, the VA would have to provide it.

If you need medication for PTSD caused by your POW experiences (and undoubtedly you would have some residual effect), then the VA may pay for it. But, the VA, like SSA, has a long application process with a lot of paperwork. And does not always end the way you want.

You provided new information in your last post when you talked about the unpaid help you got (your wife typing for you). Without that unpaid help, you might not have been able to finish your book at all. The value of that help should factor into the value of the work you did. Not easy to place a value on it, but it should factor in. How much would it have cost to pay a stranger?


http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OP_Hom...-34-di-03.html

Unpaid Help: The reasonable monetary value of any significant amount of unpaid help furnished by a spouse, children, or others should be deducted from net income. The file should include facts which would permit an estimate of the reasonable value of unpaid help furnished by family members or others. When it is clear that the help rendered consists of miscellaneous duties carried on in connection with the person's general activities as a member of the household or as a friend, statement to this effect will be sufficient, and no estimate of value will be necessary (e.g., a farmer's children feed a small flock of chickens or tend a home garden). On the other hand, where the help furnished is of a nature to which commercial value would ordinarily be assigned, the following type of information should be in the file: the name of the helping individual and this person's relationship to the impaired self-employed individual; the reason why unpaid help was furnished; a full account of the services rendered, the amount of time furnished, and how long the arrangement existed; an estimate of the reasonable value of the services, on the basis of prevailing pay for that type of work in the community; and, if the help was furnished by a spouse or by a child under age 18, an explanation of how the previous pattern of such individual's activities was affected, if at all.In estimating the amount to be deducted for unpaid help, it is necessary to consider the prevailing wage rate in the community for similar services. Where the unpaid help is rendered on a part-time or intermittent basis, only the pro rata value attributable to the services actually performed (as compared with those that a full-time employee would perform) should be deducted.

Angel, if you're at the ALJ level it is REALLY important to undergo Functional Capacity Testing and have your docs fill out Residual Functional Capacity forms--there are forms for both physical and psych disability issues.

The Vocational Expert will use that information to determine what types of jobs you qualify for--and keep in mind that the "jobs" descriptions are insanely outdated.

READ THIS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveil...system_monitor

Something to consider, could you manage working from at home taking calls? You would likely qualify as a disabled worker and might be able to get a job with special accommodations. If you couldn't realistically manage a normal work schedule that is important to document.

It is impossible to tell how an ALJ will respond, although once you get a hearing date you can certainly lookup their approval ratings. Might an ALJ deny you if you report the earnings? Some likely would hold it against you. BUT, if you don't report it and are caught, you will lose all credibility and there is no question that you are supposed to report it.

You might also consider shopping the book around and even getting an agent. What if there is potentially for a more substantial advance in this book? Congratulations, btw!

There are reasons why disability attorneys shy away from claimants who insist on holding part time employment, the primary being that it in large part shreds most claimants credibility. RFC's are important, they are even more important if they are a reflection of the outcome of a two day professional functional capacity evaluation, nonetheless, these things do become predictable based upon age and skilled worker factors. ts been my experience that most claimants under fifty must establish an RFC of less then sedentary, as opposed to those over fifty establishing one of sedentary. This has a huge impact on the outcome of most hearing level decisions.

The op should contact an attorney and inquire of them if they are interested in taking his claim, informing them of "everything" including his apparent offer for publication of a work he wrote in just thirty days time.

I would be very interested to hear the outcome of that consultation.

Sounds like he mostly dictated the book and his wife typed it for him.
That assistance would factor in.. 30 days or not..
I don't think the 30 day book event will be a factor in the big picture.

example..
Famous artists may be able to knock out a wonderful painting in a few days, but the next one may take many months..

Technology already exists that would enable such an individual to work without any such aid from a second person.

Most new computers have voice recognition built in, so you don't have to buy nuance/ dragon software..
Some tablets and smart phones have a similar program I suppose.
I can dictate notes and messages on my smart phone.

I underwent training in Dragon more than a dozen years ago and even back then SS certainly thought it was a reasonable expectation that I could find work by utilizing just such an accommodation. (And had I not subsequently developed RSD/CRPS after the Voice Activation Software Programming training, I believe I could have made a living wage.)

Dear Angell,

Congrats on the book. That is fantastic. Will you share the title with us when it hits the market so we can read it?

I have no idea of how your book will impact your claim. I do suggest honesty as the best policy because you do NOT want to lose credibility. That is also an important factor in the decision making process. One must be credible and your honesty gives you that.

Even though there is a difference between "earned" income and income that is NOT earned, what if someone were to win a large prize or a substantial amount in a lottery?

If someone plays a scratch-off ticket and wins say $20,000, does that negate their claim? Although you "earned" the money by writing a book, it is a little bit similar to a one time windfall, and may or may not be considered substantial gainful employment. I can't say. It IS different than a winning lottery ticket in that you DID earn the money.

My point in posting was mainly to say congrats. My only suggestion relating to your claim is be honest and therefore credible.

Best wishes to you.

An ethical attorney would confirm it must be disclosed. This is not a gray area.

Working PT can also show SS a pattern that the applicant did everything in their ability to continue working. It's really about the details of why they can't continue the PT work. For those that quit FT work and take PT work or work that allows greater accommodations such as working from home, sometimes they then reach a point where they realize it doesn't make "financial sense" to continue working, or they have a further decrease of function, or a combo of the two--and they don't realize they've been documenting that they their are capable of lesser work at the SGA level and undermining a potential SSDI application.

In this case, the work has already been done, it just hasn't been disclosed yet.

I agree it would be in his best interest to hire an attorney or a non-attorney rep for the hearing. One strategy the OP should discuss with any prospective counsel, IMO, is if during the hearing the book disclosure becomes a major sticking point and a denial seems imminent, to consider suggesting a closed period award. He can reapply for benefits later on if a career in writing is unsustainable. (OP you would want to verify your last date of eligibility for SSDI.)

I believe the OP's application is for SSDI, not SSI. SSDI does not consider financial matters unrelated to work, whereas SSI has strict rules on income limits and other resources. ;)

angell,

This link may be of some help:

http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/res...ess-and-still-

And this:
http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/404/404-1575.htm

It might , depending on how much they offer you to publish, then again how many hours you worked on writing it.