Oh facial pain is there ever an end?
 

Hi this is my first forum post ever yay. Been reading everyone else's for years.
I have pain everywhere, but wanted to get some help with facial/tooth pAin I've been having for a few years. My upper jaw hurts from canine to wisdom tooth. The cheek hurts same side, feels like there is a pressure in there. Recently the ride side of nose has started hurting up to my eye and last two days the eye has started hurting. I have a root canal on the first premolar after my canine. It has recently been redone. No change. No one knows what could be causing this pain. I've have four courses if antibiotics which sometimes seem to help. So my dentist thought it was probably the rc tooth. Been to endo he says there is no sign of infection around the tooth, he redrilled everything got what he said were potential branching nerves. I felt pretty good for three days after he did this, then I ate something chewy and all the pain was back.

The trouble is no one knows for sure what tooth if it is even a tooth is bothering me. At my recent appt the endo suggested this isn't tooth pain at all but nerve pain. He's sending me to a neurologist(?) for pain.

Personally I just want to start pulling teeth to try something. Only he tells me it phantom pain and extraction won't help. Any ideas? There is a constant dull pain, and if I do a lot of chewing it gets worse. Sometimes I think it's the wisdom tooth it is a bit over exposed. Other times it feels like it could be all three teeth on a row premolars and first molar. My jaw on the same side also hurts often.
Thanks everyone

Welcome Pamissotired. :Tip-Hat:

Someone will be along to help.

Hi Pamissotired,

I am in the dental field and can offer you some information here.

First let me say that many dentists, in spite of the chronic infection and inflammation in all root canaled teeth, do not consider root canaled teeth to be unhealthy. With that said, they focus on the "carpentry" aspect of dental care more so than the biological or pathological aspect.

I am going to re-post some of your thread and reply to you in bold type as this makes it easier to follow.

<< My upper jaw hurts from canine to wisdom tooth.>>
THIS IS TYPICAL WHEN THERE IS AN INFLAMED AND/OR INFECTED TOOTH AS THE INFLAMMATION IS IRRITATING THE DIFFERENT BUNDLES OF NERVES THAT CONNECT TO THE TEETH.

<<The cheek hurts same side, feels like there is a pressure in there.>>
THIS TOO IS TYPICAL AS THE INFLAMMATION IS ALSO PRESENT IN THE LIGAMENT THAT SURROUND THE INFLAMED TOOTH MAKING IT SWOLLEN. SIMILAR TO HAVE A SPLINTER EMBEDDED IN YOUR FINGER AND THE SURROUNDING TISSUE GETS SWOLLEN AND SORE.

<<Recently the ride side of nose has started hurting up to my eye and last two days the eye has started hurting.>>

THIS INDICATES THAT THE INFLAMMATION AND BACTERIA MAY BE SPREADING INTO YOUR SINUS.

<<I have a root canal on the first premolar after my canine. It has recently been redone. No change.>>

NO SURPRISE THAT YOU HAVE A ROOT CANALED TOOTH IN THAT QUADRANT OF YOUR MOUTH GIVEN THE SYMPTOMS THAT YOU ARE HAVING AS ALL ROOT CANALED TEETH ARE CHRONICALLY INFECTED, INFLAMED AND UNHEALTHY. RETREATING THE TOOTH WITH ANOTHER ROOT CANAL DOES NOT REMOVE THE INFECTED NERVE TISSUE FROM INSIDE OF THE CANALS THAT ARE NEVER ACCESSIBLE.

<< No one knows what could be causing this pain. I've have four courses if antibiotics which sometimes seem to help.>>

YES THEY ACTUALLY DO. HOWEVER THEY ARE FOCUSED ON THE "CARPENTRY" ASPECT OF THE TOOTH AND NOT THE BIOLOGY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH YOUR TOOTH. ANTIBIOTICS WILL, FOR A LIMITED TIME, TEMPORARILY SUBSIDE THE INFLAMMATION BUT CANNOT CURE THE INFECTION. AGAIN, ALL DENTISTS KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE.

<< So my dentist thought it was probably the rc tooth.>>

HE'S RIGHT. BUT HESITANT TO TELL YOU TO REMOVE THE TOOTH.

<< Been to endo he says there is no sign of infection around the tooth,>>

THE ENDO KNOWS THAT ORAL INFECTIONS WITH RC TEETH RARELY SHOW RADIO GRAPHIC SIGNS OF THE INFECTION UNTIL IT HAS PROLIFERATED WAY BEYOND THE TOOTH. UNLESS THE TOOTH HAS DECAY OR RADIO GRAPHIC PATHOLOGY LARGE ENOUGH TO BE SEEN ON A DENTAL X-RAY, THE TOOTH WILL LOOK "NORMAL" RADIO GRAPHICALLY. THE HUNDREDS OF TINY CANALS THAT HARBOR DEAD, INFECTED NERVE TISSUE CANNOT BE SEEN ON DENTAL XRAYS UNTIL THE CANALS BECOME DECAYED FROM THE INFECTION.

<<He redrilled everything got what he said were potential branching nerves.

IRRELEVANT OF WHAT HE DID TO THIS TOOTH, HE WAS NOT ABLE TO ACCESS THOSE TINY CANALS. SO WHAT HIS STATEMENT ABOUT GETTING EVERYTHING OUT SIMPLY MEANS... HE FOUND BACTERIA, DEBRIS AND SOME NECROSIS INSIDE OF THE CANALS THAT WERE VISIBLE TO HIM AND HE WORKED ON CLEANING ALL OF THAT OUT.

<< I felt pretty good for three days after he did this, then I ate something chewy and all the pain was back. >>

HIS TREATMENT AND THE ANTIBIOTICS TEMPORARILY REDUCED THE INFLAMMATION WHICH GAVE YOU SOME TEMPORARY RELIEF. AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE A SPLINTER EMBEDDED IN YOUR FINGER WHICH HAS BECOME INFLAMED AND INFECTED.... REMOVE A PIECE OF THAT SPLINTER AND THE AREA FEELS A BIT BETTER... ONLY TO BECOME INFLAMED ALL OVER AGAIN BECAUSE THE SPLINTER IS STILL PRESENT.

<<The trouble is no one knows for sure what tooth if it is even a tooth is bothering me.>>

YES THEY DO KNOW WHERE THE PROBLEM HAS ORIGINATED FROM. WHAT TYPICALLY HAPPENS WITH RC TEETH IS THE INFLAMMATION AND THEN THE BACTERIA SPREADS TO THE ADJACENT TEETH AND IN UPPER TEETH INTO THE SINUS.

<<At my recent appt the endo suggested this isn't tooth pain at all but nerve pain. He's sending me to a neurologist(?) for pain. >>

AT THIS POINT YOU MAY HAVE SOME NEUROLOGICAL ISSUES GOING ON WHICH MORE THAN LIKELY HAVE ORIGINATED FROM THIS DISEASED, INFLAMED TOOTH AS IT SET OFF A PATTERN OF INFLAMMATION AND POSSIBLE PROLIFERATION OF BACTERIA THAT HAS MOVED BEYOND THE TOOTH. TO KEEP THE TOOTH MEANS TO KEEP THE INFECTION. THE LONGER THE TOOTH IS PRESENT THE MORE WIDESPREAD THE PROBLEM WILL BECOME.

<<Personally I just want to start pulling teeth to try something. Only he tells me it phantom pain and extraction won't help.>>

AT THIS TIME IT IS NOT WISE TO REMOVE ANY OTHER TEETH OTHER THAN THE ONE THAT IS ROOT CANALED AND DETERMINE IF THE BACTERIA HAS SPREAD TO THE ADJACENT TEETH AND/OR THE SINUS. IT COULD TAKE MONTHS FOR THE PAIN TO SUBSIDE COMPLETELY AFTER THE TOOTH IS REMOVED AS THE BRANCHES OF NERVES ARE INFLAMED AND IRRITATED. EXTRACTING THE TOOTH WILL CAUSE ADDITIONAL IRRITATION AND TRAUMA THAT IS USUALLY TEMPORARY AND REMOVING THE TOOTH IS THE ONLY HOPE OF REMOVING THE SOURCE OF THE ORIGINAL AND ONGOING PROBLEM.

<<There is a constant dull pain, and if I do a lot of chewing it gets worse. >>

THIS IS DUE TO THE BACTERIA TRAPPED INSIDE OF THOSE TINY CANALS AND TO THE INFLAMED PERIODONTAL LIGAMENT. THINK OF THE SPLINTER EXAMPLE.....

<<Sometimes I think it's the wisdom tooth it is a bit over exposed. Other times it feels like it could be all three teeth on a row premolars and first molar. >>

IT IS THE IRRITATION AND INFLAMMATION OF THE BUNDLES OF NERVES, ETC. DO NOT LET ANYONE CONVINCE YOU TO ROOT CANAL THE REST OF THOSE UPPER TEETH. THAT WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY MAKE IT A WHOLE LOT WORSE. YOUR WISDOM TOOTH COULD HAVE SOME ROOT EXPOSURE WHICH COULD FLARE UP FROM EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS GOING ON IN THAT QUADRANT OF YOUR MOUTH.

<<My jaw on the same side also hurts often.>>

AGAIN THIS IS FROM THE INFLAMMATION. IT IS ALSO LIKELY DUE TO SOME GRINDING OR CLENCHING OF YOUR TEETH THAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE AWARE OF. ANYTIME WE HAVE AN INFLAMED OR ACHEY TOOTH WE TEND TO CLENCH DOWN ON IT TO MAKE IT FEEL BETTER. SIMILAR TO RUBBING A BRUISE OR BUMP ON YOUR LEG. THIS CLENCHING OR GRINDING CAN FURTHER IRRITATE THE TOOTH LIGAMENTS, FACIAL MUSCLES AND TMJ JOINT.

A neurologist will prescribe medication to mask the pain which will do nothing to alter or cure the problem with the rc tooth. Typically medications are monitored, changed, dosages are altered and before you know it you are on a cocktail of meds while the original problem is still brewing in your head. After awhile, the irritated nerves in the face can become irreversibly damaged and irrelevant of removing the tooth, the neurological problem will become permanent. This is why you may have read here or elsewhere of people having their rc tooth removed only to continue to suffer with some form of neuralgia. The two missing facts generally associated with that scenario is that the rc tooth was retained in the mouth long enough to cause irreversible nerve damage and the extraction of the tooth at that point in time caused unrepairable damage due to the disease that was already present in that bone and surrounding area.

When you decide to remove this tooth, it would be best to see an an oral surgeon for the removal and not let your general dentist perform the extraction as the os is more experienced and knowledgeable about the nerve correlation.

If you want to learn more about the biology and systemic connection of rc teeth .. google Dr Mercola and George Meinig with the words root canal. You can also buy the book entitled The Roots of Disease, Connecting Dentistry to Medicine by Dr Robert Kulacz and Dr Levy.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Thank you Brianna I love your posts how you always address everything mentioned very refreshing.
I am curious any idea how to tell if I have permanent nerve damage? That sounds scary and awful. My biggest fear is I will have this pain forever.

The tooth beside the rc often hurts it has two big fillings on the sides. I'm told it looks fine but could be a problem? I wouldn't want to have any work on it though, anyway to rule it out for sure? Food couldn't be getting stuck in it? As my problems seem to flare up if I eat things with little seeds. I am now scared to eat blueberries strawberries raspberries pears chewy chicken, lol, crazy.

I most likely grind my teeth, I consciously all day force myself to relax my jaw but I often clamp down on that wisdom tooth because it sticks out? Whatever the cause my jaw muscles are always tight I get regular massage/chiro doesn't help. I have been considering trying to find a tmj specialist, I have no idea how to find someone who is actually a specialist and not just self proclaimed. Though if I got rid of this other pain perhaps this would be a non issue. Any suggestions for finding a good dentist would be appreciated. We live in the middle of nowhere not many options around and driving hours to try different places isn't really an option I would drive hours for someone who is for sure good.
Anyway thanks again I think I will phone my dentist and ask to be sent to an oral surgeon.
Don't think I should take the endos advise and wait a month for the ligament to settle down? ( personally I hate waiting). This thing is like a constant itch I can't scratch. Doesn't hurt too much just it never lets up.

I've experienced a complicated situation involving simple dental work that went wrong. A crown on a cracked tooth with an rc tooth next to it. My cracked tooth was root canaled...what a horror. Then, I had it removed...the pain remained. I do not believe I had one single good dentist...although I went from dentist to dentist begging for help and was willing to spend anything for good care. Instead, I spent a LOT of money for horrible care and ended up with permanent pain and ill health.

I know my recent dental care was HORRID and I'm beginning to suspect the entire industry is wracked with LIARS, cheats, unprofessionalism, cheapskates and cruelty...and this has been going on for decades. Just IMHO.

I believe my severe and permanent pain occurred from dental work and it's been determined by oral surgeons and neurologists that the cause is damage to the Trigeminal nerve. One of the oral surgeons is also an MD...pretty cool. I trust him greatly.....he actually apologized to me for the dental profession. Odd, huh? *Correction...at least I think he has a better understanding of how dentistry can influence the body and oddly, he doesn't seem to trust dentists.

I think you should consider removing the tooth by a well respected oral surgeon and also see a neurologist, especially if your pain doesn't improve. Pam, don't panic, but some of your pain is similar to mine...so IMHO, you probably should try to make a decision soon.

Although I don't have it all worked out ... I highly suspect root canals are dangerous. I ordered the book mentioned above as well as "Root canal Coverup."

Scared
 

Thanks I must say though this is very scary. Trying not to be scared. I hope you get some relief.

Pam

Hi Vowel Lady,

You made a few statements that I think is only fair to clarify for the lay person so I will re-post them and give my two cents in bold type.. just easier to follow that way....

<<I've experienced a complicated situation involving simple dental work that went wrong. A crown on a cracked tooth with an rc tooth next to it.>>

ALL CROWN PREPARATIONS ARE NOT UNDER THE CATEGORY OF SIMPLE DENTISTRY. ALL DENTAL RESTORATIONS REQUIRE DRILLING INTO THE TOOTH. EVEN A TINY AMOUNT OF DRILLING CAN CAUSE BACTERIA TO MIGRATE TO THE PULP AND FURTHER.... OR NERVE DAMAGE TO OCCUR WITH THE NERVES INSIDE OF THE TOOTH. THIS RISK IS ELEVATED WITH THE SEVERITY OF THE DRILLING AS MORE AND MORE TOOTH STRUCTURE NEEDS TO BE REMOVED AS IN THE PREPARATION OF A CROWN. THE RISK ALSO ELEVATED EACH TIME THAT TOOTH IS DRILLED INTO TO REMOVE AN OLD RESTORATION AND PUT IN A NEW ONE OR DO A CROWN. UNLIKE COSMETIC DENTISTRY, FOR A CROWN TO EVEN BE SUGGESTED THERE HAS TO BE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TOOTH STRUCTURE ALREADY GONE OR THE REPLACEMENT RESTORATION WOULD SUFFICE WITH A FILLING.

THE RC TOOTH NEXT TO THE ONE THAT HAD THE CROWN PUT ON HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE "NERVE" PROBLEMS THAT YOU ARE EXPERIENCING. WHY? BECAUSE NOT ONLY WAS THIS TOOTH INFECTED AND INFLAMED PRIOR TO DRILLING INTO THE ADJACENT ONE BUT THE SURROUNDING NERVES, BONE AND LIGAMENTS WERE ALSO INFLAMED AND UNHEALTHY JUST AS THEY ARE WITH ALL ROOT CANALED TEETH. AS YOU KNOW TEETH ARE INTRICATELY RELATED TO BUNDLES OF NERVES THAT NOT ONLY SURROUND EACH TOOTH BUT THEN BRANCH OUT INTO OTHER AREAS OF THE MOUTH, FACE,..... ETC.

<< My cracked tooth was root canaled...what a horror. Then, I had it removed...the pain remained. >>

THE PAIN REMAINED AFTER THE EXTRACTION MOST LIKELY BECAUSE YOU HAVE RETAINED THAT OTHER INFECTED AND INFLAMED OTHER RC TOOTH AND/OR THE SURGICAL SITE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY DEBRIDED LEAVING BEHIND NECROTIC TISSUE.

<< I do not believe I had one single good dentist...although I went from dentist to dentist begging for help and was willing to spend anything for good care. Instead, I spent a LOT of money for horrible care and ended up with permanent pain and ill health.>>

THIS IS WHY I REFER TO DENTISTS AS TOOTH CARPENTERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO FOCUS ON THE TOOTH CARPENTRY NOT THE BIOLOGY. I INFORM PEOPLE TO NOT EXPECT THEIR DENTISTS TO INFORM THEM OF THE PROBLEMS WITH ROOT CANALED TEETH BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GO AGAINST THE TIDE AND RISK BEING OSTRICIZED BY THEIR PEERS. THE PATIENT IS THE ONE WHO HAS TO BRING UP THE SYSTEMIC CONNECTION TO THE DENTIST AND NOT BACK DOWN ON IT. THIS IS WHY I AM HERE... TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BECOME BETTER INFORMED SO THEY REDUCE THE RISK OF ENDING UP WITH A NEUROLOGICAL PROBLEM.

<< I know my recent dental care was HORRID and I'm beginning to suspect the entire industry is wracked with LIARS, cheats, unprofessionalism, cheapskates and cruelty...and this has been going on for decades. Just IMHO. >>

OKAY, YOU SAID IT. IT IS AN INDUSTRY NOT UNLIKE THE REST OF OUR HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY. IT IS THE $$$ THAT DRIVE MOST PEOPLE TO DO WHAT THEY DO FOR A LIVING AND DENTISTS AND DOCTORS ARE NO DIFFERENT.

<<I believe my severe and permanent pain occurred from dental work and it's been determined by oral surgeons and neurologists that the cause is damage to the Trigeminal nerve.>>

IT MOST LIKELY OCCURRED AT THE TIME OF THE FIRST ROOT CANAL AND IT HAS SPIRALED OUT OF CONTROL SINCE THEN. THE RC PROCEDURE CAUSES TRAUMA TO THE FRAGILE AREAS OF THE TOOTH... THE NERVE TISSUE AND BACTERIA BECOMES LODGED IN THE HUNDREDS OF TINY CANALS CAUSING THAT NERVE TISSUE TO BECOME NECROTIC .... THE BACTERIA BECOMES INFECTIOUS AND PROLIFERATES BEYOND THE TOOTH... ADD TO ALL THAT THE INFLAMMATION. THIS IS WHY IT IS SO LIKELY THAT RETAINING A SICK TOOTH WILL RESULT IN A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM LIKE NEURALGIA.

<<One of the oral surgeons is also an MD...pretty cool. I trust him greatly.....he actually apologized to me for the dental profession. Odd, huh? *Correction...at least I think he has a better understanding of how dentistry can influence the body and oddly, he doesn't seem to trust dentists.>>

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR AN ORAL SURGEON TO CARRY A DUAL DEGREE. SOMETIMES THEY ADVERTISE IT SOMETIMES THEY DON'T. WHEN A PATIENT CONFRONTS AN ORAL SURGEON ABOUT THE RISK OF A SYSTEMIC CONNECTION TO A ROOT CANALED TOOTH, 9.5 OUT OF 10 ORAL SURGEONS WILL CONFIRM THIS TO BE TRUE. THEY ARE CAREFUL HOW THEY DISCUSS IT AND GENERALLY DO NOT OFFER AS MUCH INFORMATION AS I DO. THE HALF PERCENT OF THEM THAT DISMISS THE NOTION... ARE THE ONES WHO ARE EATING OUT OF THEIR REFERRALS POCKETS AND WON'T JEOPARDIZE THEIR INCOME BY GOING AGAINST THE TIDE.

<<I think you should consider removing the tooth by a well respected oral surgeon and also see a neurologist, especially if your pain doesn't improve. Pam, don't panic, but some of your pain is similar to mine...so IMHO, you probably should try to make a decision soon. ?|>>

IF NERVE DAMAGE HAS OCCURRED FROM THE TOOTH, IT CAN TAKES MONTHS OR YEARS FOR THE NERVES TO REGENERATE. IT DEPENDS ON HOW LONG THAT RC TOOTH WAS PRESENT, HOW MANY TIMES IT WAS ROOT CANALED, AND HOW PROLIFERATED THE INFECTION BECAME. NEUROLOGISTS ARE VERY QUICK TO PRESCRIBE A MYRIAD OF MEDICATIONS. NERVE REGENERATION CAN OFTEN BE ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH NUTRITION AND NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS. A NUTRITIONIST WOULD NEED TO BE CONSULTED FOR THE PROPER PATH. SOME PEOPLE WOULD CHOOSE THE MEDS... WHILE OTHERS MIGHT CHOOSE TO ATTACK IT FROM A NUTRITIONAL STANDPOINT. THAT IS WHY I MENTION IT.

<<Although I don't have it all worked out ... I highly suspect root canals are dangerous. I ordered the book mentioned above as well as "Root canal Coverup.">>

YOU ARE BECOMING BETTER INFORMED THAT'S FOR SURE! YOU WILL ACQUIRE A GREAT DEAL OF KNOWLEDGE FROM BOTH BOOKS.

I always welcome and appreciate your input here. I know so many people who are in your shoes and it saddens me to know what you are going through. Don't give up learning, you will find the answers you are looking for!

Pam,

You are welcome.

If you are talking about the nerve damage in your root canaled tooth... the damage is permanent, there is no reversing it or making that tooth healthy again.

If you are referring to possible nerve damage other than your tooth, there is no way to know if it is permanent. I can tell you for certain that the offending tooth is causing inflammation to the bundle of nerves that surround that tooth that are intricately connected to other bundles of nerves.

The adjacent tooth with the two fillings could definitely be contributing factors in the pain you are experiencing. One reason is because they are compromised with those large fillings and if the fillings are old they have micro leakage that is allowing bacteria to get in underneath them. Secondly the inflammation from the rc tooth had spread to that tooth given the time frame from when the tooth was first root canaled.

If that upper wisdom tooth is elongated and you are biting into it unnaturally... the it should either be shaved down if possible or extracted as this tooth can throw your entire bite out of alignment.

You don't need a TMJ specialist... you need to take care of that rc tooth and wisdom tooth as they are the likely and immediate culprits to your ongoing problem.

Bryanna

Oh nerves
 

Well I'm trying to get booked with an oral surgeon hopefully sooner rather then later I don't have much faith in things going quickly. I am so tired of pain not sure if I can handle this much longer, I'm off to the advil bottle. Here's hoping I don't get an ulcer.

They just phoned could take 6 months to see a surgeon am I sure I don't want my regular dentist to do the extraction? He can get me in Thursday.

So maybe I should start a new thread but anyone get so tired of it all? I've been to so many dr appt. specialists physio chiro massage even osteopath. Nothing is ever better or figured out. I've wasted so much of my families money trying to get some kind of relief from pain only to be disappointed. But what can a person do but keep trying? Or give up? I'm not sure I could live with all my multiple pains. (By the way the endo clinic tells me I should take advil! Like I haven't already tried advil, or been taking advil). Anyway this is my internet break down thanks for anyone who reads this. Not sure what I'm trying to accomplish but I hate constantly complaining to the people around me. They don't need my pain. So on that note yay here's hoping my dentist doesn't screw up the extraction and all my face pain will disappear. Oh yeah my stomach is burnng figgin advil. Pretty soon I will cave to my dr and be on so many pills I won't need to eat anymore.

Thanks Bryanna...
I still am confused as it (the crown) seemed like a simple procedure as I had an onlay previously. Very very little drilling was done to the tooth in question (31). It was not an rc tooth at the time. However, the crown came back so huge, the dentist drilled the hexk out of the tooth above it and that tooth thank goodness is hidden cause it looks terrible.
The crown kept on breaking...so many times, I lost count. Months went by. I was at the dentist with new crowns trying to be put in for many, many weeks. Then, she decided voila...it finally fit and put permanent cement in. :mad: BAD idea. It cracked within three minutes...I never left the office. So, one theory I have is they were having their crowns made by "Joe the discount crown maker" who works out of his garage. I had my first twinges of pain at the next appointment when she spent about an hour trying to get that thing off. Then the owner decided to put in a post....OMG! That's when I got the pain from"outer space," which caused the office to scramble because they knew I was trying to keep from screaming bloody murder.

THEN...after getting a second opinion (more stoooopid crxp) I was told to rc the tooth. :(.

I'm not discounting the rc tooth next to the cracked tooth as perhaps playing a role. I think many things went wrong here....and if you think about it, when I got the rc (the first one or the recent one), no one ever told me that my health might be negatively influenced.

So again, more than one thing at play here. I do think my dentists and the crown material they were using are highly suspect. I can't explain all the details...but the attitudes, behaviors, tx and decisions in that office...plus the results all seem horrid to me! The adjacent rc tooth is something I'm on my own wondering about. Also wondering if I can get any good, trustworthy, professional input locally re: that rc tooth and what my options are. My pain, poor health and ENORMOUS distrust of this profession...well, it's a lot to get through trying to find a dentist I can work with....but I won't give up. I have to find someone!!!!

The first book came in and I've started reading!!!!:)

PAM...
Just saw your post! Please continue posting. Maybe you should ask around for more names of oral surgeons. Try not to worry about the money. Your health is what is most important. Do what you think is best for your health. And, brush and floss regularly and AVOID SUGAR! I just saw the movie "FED UP" watch it if you get the opportunity. It's about sugar....soooooo bad for us!

Hi Pam,

Oh I hear you.... please don't let this frustrate you. I know you are in a miserable situation but hopefully it will be much and real soon.

Waiting 6 months for an oral surgeon is not logical at all. Do you live in the US or the UK? In the US oral surgeons will see patients on emergency basis. Chronic dental pain requiring daily pain meds constitutes an emergency.

My concerns with the general dentist extracting the tooth are:

1) RC teeth are more brittle than vital teeth. Which means he may have difficulty removing it and break it into small pieces. Many general dentists are not experienced well enough or equipped to remove those pieces without causing trauma to the bone ..... and all pieces need to be removed nothing should be left behind.

2) Upper posterior teeth can be in close proximity to the sinuses. This means that there could be a sinus communication between the root of the tooth and the sinus. Most general dentists are not experienced at dealing with a sinus communication. Oral surgeons deal with this all the time.

3) When the tooth is removed, the periodontal ligament and all necrotic tissue and bone needs to be scraped out so the bone is clean of all debris. Unfortunately, general dentists tend not to do either of those things. Oral surgeons understand the importance of debriding the socket clean. With that said, whoever you choose to see for the extraction, it would be in your best interest to express to them that you want them to debride the socket thoroughly. The reason you should mention it is because in every business people can get sloppy at times... in expressing this be done you are reassuring yourself that it will be done. Inadequate debridement can leave you with infection and neuralgic type pain. So this step of the surgery is very important.

4) Due to the extent of the pain that you have been having and since it is mimicking neuralgia... it is imperative that an experienced dentist remove this tooth and not cause any unnecessary trauma to this area of your mouth.

Regarding the advil.... only take the dosage that is effective and no more. There is no reason to start out with 3 or 4 tablets. Try 2 and if no relief in an hour, take one more. Also make sure you never take advil on an empty stomach.

It would also be very helpful if you took a probiotic supplement. Probiotics are good, healthy bacteria that are essential for life. Anytime the body is dealing with infection, illness, or chronic pain it is imperative to feed the immune system with good bacteria. Seventy percent of our immune system is in our digestive tract and keeping it healthy is very important. Probiotics are not something that the body makes on it's own. You can get it from eating sugar free fermented foods or a supplement. Yogurt... unless it is homemade yogurt without sugar, is not a good source of live bacteria as it is over processed and the bacteria has long died by the time the product reaches the store shelf. A good probiotic product to try is called Culturelle. Most drug stores and super markets carry it.

Hang in there......
Bryanna

Vowel Lady,

Okay so the tooth already had an onlay on it. This means the tooth had already been heavily drilled for the onlay. So this tooth may not have been all that healthy when she prepared it for the crown. Remember not all infection will show up radio-graphically until they are large enough to be picked up.

I realize the rc was done after the final crown was put on. The fact that the crown(s) repetitively did not fit well indicate that there was not much tooth structure remaining above the gum line and she was unable to get a clear margin. Even with the best dental labs, margins need to be precise or the crown will not fit. The crown was made large due to the impression that was taken by the dentist and sent to the lab. The lab fabricates the crown according to the impressions and nothing else. She should have seen that it didn't fit well in your bite before she permanently cemented it... that was really lame on her part.

Tapping off a crown can cause the nerves inside the tooth to be so traumatized that they never recover. I think that visit and the post visit were just icing on the cake with this tooth. By the way, posts are only put into root canaled teeth... not vital teeth. Putting a post into a vital tooth will kill it for sure. That is just not done. Even in rc teeth, post causes so much trauma to the tooth and the bone. That dental office that you went to... sounds like a torture chamber!!

Bryanna

Thank you.


OMG...I had no idea that posts were not put into non rc teeth. Good :mad::icon_evil::Sob::icon_evil::eek:
THAT WAS WHEN THE PAIN FROM HEXX STARTED. Shortly after the post. AND the oral surgeons have told me my trig. Nerve is unusually close to the surface.

Remember, I never had pain originally with the tooth. My DIL was seven months pregnant and I was expected to help when the baby came. An onlay fell off. I asked for it to be put back. I didn't want to be in a different city and possibly need dental work. Then I walked into Satan's Dental Office.

The rc tooth adjacent to tooth 31...may have been part of the issue. But , there was plenty of insanity going on as well.

I do feel very abused, damaged, hurt...etc. i just have to move forward, but with extreme caution. And I am more aware of the root canal issue. Considering how I feel about dentists and what I've experienced....this rc stuff does NOT surprise me. I'm reading...

I tell everyone to be very careful when choosing a dentist !!!!

A specialists
 

Hi I am in canada not sure about the surgeons I googled and found 4 a three hour drive from here. I'm going to phone tomorrow and see what their office says.
What happens if he misses a piece? This tooth was done 5 years ago (it is a dark color) and again two weeks ago.
Four advil takes the pressure feeling away in my cheek and some of the pain. Anything less does nothing. Glad you said daily pain meds is an emergency, I'm so sick of dr.s and dentists just telling me to take pain meds I don't want meds! Anyway I recently visited an ent specialist who thinks I might be suffering from migraines which are making me dizzy causing jaw pain and ringing ears, and back neck pain. Any thoughts on this? I'm hoping it's all tooth related. Incidentally 4 advil does nothing for this nothing at all.

Sorry for the tone I'm having a very bad day and really appreciate you ladies replies.

Pam

I've had migraines for twenty years. I use to write a column about them on a medical website. I doubt it's a migraine. I would stick with a good oral surgeon. If you can find one that is also an MD, that would be ideal! I went to an ENT originally as well, and he said I had a TMJ problem, but later decided I had ATN. Sometimes I think great pain causes people to clench their teeth and this causes a TMJ issue or even a migraine, but I don't think these odd symptoms are either TMJ or migraine to begin with.

I suppose since I clearly have nerve pain, my neurologist helped me the most. I also liked the oral surgeon who was also an MD.

I just remembered that there is one antibiotic (can't recall which one...but I think Doxycycline...need to check spelling) that for some reason reduces inflammation. So during my particular dental / nerve mess, when the dentists put me on this med, my pain was lessened a little.

I hope you can find an experienced and wise doctor and/or oral surgeon and fast! My heart goes out to you!

Vowel Lady,

Teeth do not have to hurt when there is an infection. I know that sounds ridiculous but if the bacteria is draining and there is no swelling, most of the time there is little or no pain. It is when the inflammation closes off the drain site when the pain sets in. I have known countless dental patients who swear they had no pain only to find a medical emergency abscess on their xrays. Go figure...

I am sorry that you have endured such dental failure. You are right in that it is so important to find a dentist who is not only well skilled but a good doctor too. With that said, even the crappiest dentists will do better work on a patient who is well informed. Almost like a child who only behaves if someone is watching.... ;)

Bryanna

Pam,

Okay you live in Canada. We've had many people here who live in Canada and had some difficulty finding an oral surgeon. Sometimes you have to do a private pay, is that what it's called..??

Pam go to this site and type in your zip code. Let me know who if anyone comes up...http://iaomt.org/find-a-doctor/searc...ist-physician/

Migraines can be related to teeth and/or muscular problems of the jaw. However, migraines are often related to your diet.

Bryanna

I have been referred to Neurologist here's hoping that doesn't take 4+ months to get into, and that they have some good news. I really don't want to have to take drugs for the rest of my life. Regardless I'm getting this tooth out.
Vowel lady I am going to phone and find out what antibiotics I was the time before last trey helped to most, maybe that's why.

Bryanna...I see your point about dentists performing better when they know you are an informed patient.

On a much smaller scale than the issues we have been talking about, I once refused to take an xray with a dentist who had old equipment. She didn't get new equipment until her licensing organization or some other governing agency forced her.

Thank goodness you are willing to keep us informed. Thank goodness.

Pam...I think (fingers crossed) you are on the right path. A neuro might be able to rule out nerve damage or give you something that will help. Maybe, even if it is a nerve issue, it will only be temporary. And he or she could evaluate for migraines too. And pulling the tooth out might be best given all that Bryanna has informed us about. Is the tooth well hidden in your mouth???? You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Vowel lady of course this tooth is very much in my smile. At least it's not one of the insisors I am only 30 but not vain hopefully this hole in my smile won't bug me too much. I think a small price to pay if I get pain free. Would have pulled it years ago if anyone could have told me for sure which tooth was bothering me. Had massage today on the masiter muscles I feel way better. Costs more than advil but works way better. Unfortunately can't have one of those everyday. I feel it more just in the tooth area now instead of everywhere.
Vowel lady I'm so sorry for all you dental troubles! They sound a awful, I will pray for you too hope you can get something's worked out. I was greatful I could afford the dentist... Hindsight I'd have been better off 6-7 years ago if I had no money and got the tooth pulled.
Oh life here's hoping this is the worst that ever happens.

Hi Pam, I think it might be good to get various opinions from different types of doctors. It's a long shot, but sometimes people with nerve pain, actually have compressions in their brain causing these odd pains. This can be ruled out with an MRI.

I was somewhat rushed because the first dentist I saw took way over a month to attempt to put on a crown and my DIL was then eight months pregnant. That's when my pain started, but with each dental procedure, i believe mistakes were made and I got more pain. So....what happened is that I was becoming frantic between the increasing pain and my DIL getting closer to her due date.

Your situation is also very difficult since you are in pain and it takes so much time to see a doctor. You probably should make a decision relatively soon, yet you need the help of doctors to make decisions.

But, I was thinking that if possible, it would be nice to gather opinions from different doctors and to try different meds and the massage,etc. Perhaps the help you got from the massage is a clue. And perhaps you have more than one thing going wrong here.

I do believe my great pain has caused me some migraines and TMJ issues at times.

Should you make a final decision to remove the tooth, another thought is to begin exploring what options you will have in the future for an implant or prosthesis to replace that tooth, cosmetically. I have an rc tooth that I strongly suspect will need to be pulled, and that is what is on my agenda.

BTW, I have a cleaning today. I go three times a year, but I won't be able to let them touch my bottom right side.

Thank you for your kind words. It has been very tough. I pray your situation resolves in a healthy manner and soon.

Not to mention **Lunatics.

Extracted
 

Well I pulled two teeth today. They weren't bothering me as much, but that has been the habit for 4+ years. Hurting then nothing. The wisdom tooth was a breeze, the other one came out easy but is really throbbing now, still bleeding to.
I'm panicking a bit. Did I do the right thing? The dentist must have said "well I hope this was the problem" five times. Plus "I can't see why the root canal wouldn't have fixed it" etc. well it's too late now, it's not that big a deal having a tooth pulled is it?? Eegads remorse, I sure hope this was the problem. So any recommendations for replacement?

Hi Pamissotired,

So you decided to have your general dentist remove the teeth, correct? Hopefully he was thorough with the surgery and you will have no residual problems.

It is normal to bleed from the surgical wound for a day or so. Only place the moistened gauze if the site is oozing. Otherwise do not put anything on that site. IF you use the gauze, be sure to moisten it slightly and bite down for 2 minutes before removing it. If you over use the gauze and/or you remove it too soon you could disturb the clot.

It's best to sleep with your head propped up on 2 pillows and you may have some bleeding throughout the night... that's okay.

Your dentist is well aware of the bacteria that remains inside of root canaled teeth. Typically dentists do not comment about that unless they are specifically asked about it.

Eat a soft nutritious diet for several days and avoid eating on that side for just as long. In 24 hrs start the gentle salt water rinses and continue doing them for several days to keep the plaque from accumulating on the site.

Hopefully you will start to feel better soon. Please keep us posted.

Bryanna

Hey hey
 

Hi everyone, fun side effect of getting my teeth pulled my bite us now driving me mad! Feels like my teeth are only touching in two spots. I'm wondering how long should I wait to get my bite adjusted? I think maybe some of the teeth are just exta pressure sensitive right now but it hard to say.

Also I'd really like some opinions on replacements. I had thought to just leave to spot empty but now my front teeth are really butting each other.

Pam

Hi Pam,

Your bite is going to go through changes for awhile as the inflammation in the bone settles down. Your bite should not be adjusted until the extraction sites heal as that is when the inflammation will be healed also.

You do not need to replace the wisdom tooth. Replacement options for the pre molar depend on several factors. Some options may be a dental implant, a permanent bridge or a partial denture. It is best to discuss these options with your dentist.

Hopefully the pain that you were having has diminished and everything goes well for you!

Bryanna

Post extraction
 

I bryanna it's been a week, I can not get comfortable with my teeth. My bite is so different and I can't do any chewing on that side. I don't think it infected or anything it's not that painful just annoying me to death. Is this to be expected? The gums seem to be healing well just a little tender. So just to say again is it normal not to able to chew on surrounding teeth a week later?
I really don't want to go back to my dentist just not happy with my dentist experiences. Like I said they didn't want me extracting this in the first place now I'm nervous of them. Like they think I'm crazy.
Pam

Hi Pam,

To be honest, it is still too early to be eating food that requires a lot of chewing and you really should try not to chew on that side yet. That entire quadrant is still inflamed from the trauma of the extractions.

What could be happening is that your jaw joint may be inflamed and the ligaments surrounding the joint may be tight which would cause he bite to feel peculiar and chewing to be uncomfortable. If this is the culprit, then the way to rest the ligament is to avoid opening your mouth very wide and to not eat food that requires a lot of chewing.

By any chance are you missing any other teeth in addition to the 2 that were just removed?
Bryanna

Hi no these are the only teeth I've had pulled and really I can't find much info on what's normal. Thank you, it feels like there is a really high point over there now. No one said anything about not chewing on that side so now I know I will stop. It will be much harder to get them to stop bumping and during the day feels like I have to let my jaw hang, so it's very hard to get comfortable. Not much I can to about sleep I'm afraid I wake up with my mouth closed the way it would normally be. I'm sorry but am I looking at a couple more weeks of this? A month? More?

Pam

Hi Pam,

There are several reasons why you should avoid chewing on the side of the extractions but the one that will make the most sense to you is that there are open wounds where the teeth use to be. These wounds are not shallow, they are deep which means the bone is also open. So you want to avoid getting food stuck inside of them. Also the rest of the bony ridge in that quadrant where your remaining teeth are is lacking stability until the jaw bone fills in where the teeth were removed. The bone takes about a year to completely fill in. However, after a few weeks the gum tissue closes over making the wounds less susceptible to infection which encourages the bone to grow at a faster rate compared to when the wounds are open leaving the bone unprotected. So yes, if you can stop eating on that side until the wounds close over with gum tissue that would be ideal.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "bumping" or why you have to let your jaw hang open. Could you give a more detailed description?

Bryanna

Hello again having a very bad day. Thank you for answering my posts.
My cheeks bone is again bothering me such as before the extraction the extraction site feels mildly itchy. But my jaw cheek pressure is awful, I'm stressing out that maybe this extraction has done nothing.(the premolar hardly notice the wisdom tooth). It hurts not at all to open my jaw not stiff, just hurts all the time. Once in a while I also get weird aches in my chin. My three remaining teeth on that top jaw are very bothered aching. Closing my mouth is bothersome. I'm having a very hard getting my jaw/cheek to relax its really bothered. I'm sorry this is hard to explain, I used to gently rest my teeth together to relax now that is excruciating(or it gives me a tension headache)

Does this sound like nerve damage? Or tmj? Or like I just need more healing time? I took extra strength Tylenol and one Advil nothing.

Pam,

Your description of symptoms may indicate a sinus problem. Either infection or inflammation or both. Long term sinus problems can cause pain in various areas of the face, head, eyes......

Have you consulted with an ear nose and throat physician?

Bryanna

Hi Bryanna thank you again
Can I ask you more questions about sinus infections?

Hi Pam,

Sure. I'm limited to how much information I can give you about them but I will share with you what I know.

Hello again thank you for your continued help :). Sorry I feel like I'm beating a dad dog with all these posts but I still have not found relief and it is so nice to talk about it. Gives me an idea of what to do. I found this post on the internet describing someone else's tooth pain that describes what I had been feeling.

"However, a few days ago, I felt a 'vibrating' pain in this tooth. (This was not a rootcanaled tooth mine was) It didn't hurt when I ate anything, but after eating or late in the night I would notice this vibrating pain. The 'pain' got worse, and when I tried to pay attention to exactly what I was feeling, I noticed that what I was really feeling was an "itching" sensation in the core of the tooth. (Yes! Me too)

I notice when either I grind my teeth, or if I chew on a napkin over this tooth, or even run a toothbrush back and forth over it...I feel relief - as it I'm scratching an itch. Very strange. (Yes me too I loved chewing or grinding this tooth as that felt better)

I can see the tooth and I don't see any swelling, discoloration or rotting appearance. The tooth feels sound and solid, it isn't loose. Just this 'itching' feeling in the root.
Someone responded to her with

i had a very similar experience to yours, part of a filling came out after chewing a toffee and left a small cavity!! NO PAIN...just a funny sensation when eating or pressing down. brushing was ok but i started to bite my teeth together to relieve the funny pressure. a couple of months later, amazing tooth and jaw ache, sleepless nights and lots of headaches! I went to the dentist (too late) and after xrays was told i had a small abcess under the tooth which was tingling and causing infection, i wish with hindsight that I went straightaway to get it sorted, the tooth had to be extracted under general anesthetic (2 month waiting list) as the roots of the tooth were crooked and my, by now, large abcess scraped out! Antibiotics, time off work in pain, swollen cheek. not good. Please go to your dentist as soon as possible, be brave and get it seen to. your itching sensation could turn out nasty. stop it before it gets worse. good luck.

So I have gone to the dentist they see nothing. I have had a re root canal done, didn't fix it(though I didn't give it a lot of time...). Now I've had an extraction and still feel this itchy pain like I need to grind this now missing tooth. Plus a pain pressure in the gums where the tooth was. No sharp or stabbing pain just this constant deep ache itch. The cheek temple pain I think could be from tense muscles on that side? Now it's starting to feel like it's the tooth behind the now extracted tooth. Also my the two teeth in front (the canine and second incisor) are still pressure sore. So this super long was just to see if this better explanation would help at all. Any ideas?

Oh I almost forgot I'm seeing a facial pain doctor next Friday not sure if this is going to be a waste of money but I'm hoping some help will come out of it.

Pam

Oh I forgot I didn't think it was sinus because I haven't had a cold. It only one side. I am not plugged up or stuffy. The gums where my tooth was look funny to me like bruised a bit and protruding, like there's a hard itchy bump but that could just be the bone. I'm not sure also the canine which never bothers me and has nothing wrong with it has a small hard bump to which is a very pale color. Wiggling or flossing the premolar behind the extraction sight feels very good while I do it... Try not to. Oragel helps a bit.

Pam,

When a patient has an "itchy" feeling in or near the socket of an extracted tooth this could indicate that the periodontal ligament was not removed at the time of the extraction and it is irritating to the socket and tissue. It could also indicate that there is bacteria, plaque or something else causing an irritation. Orajel has preservatives in it and some people are allergic or sensitive to them which would cause an itchy feeling. Sometimes you can become sensitive or allergic to it with repetitive use and the discomfort can become more widespread from the irritation and reaction to it.

Are you aware of other teeth in your mouth that have problems?

Bryanna

Hi my teeth I am always told look good and healthy. Even the two I just got extracted. Everyone was very sure surprised I wanted them out even though they have bothered me for years. Worse this last year. It feels like I need to scratch the missing tooth. Also the gums above where it was closer to my nose itchy pressure aching feeling. I'm not really in pain though so I think I'm going to have a hard time getting a dentist to help out.

I've only really used the Oragel a few times I'm desperate for something other than the advil Tylenol combo I've been trying. I really don't like pill popping especially when it's not really helping.

I do however have very real pain in all the muscles on that side and find it impossible to get my jaw comfortable. Still only chewing on the other side, which is difficult for me. I never realize I used up do all my chewing on the now useless side. Not sure why I favoured it, been told by a few people my jaw opens nice and straight.
Is there anything I should be askng dentists? I have no idea what to try. The endodontist is sending me to "the facial pain specialist" whatever that is. He simply told me that's where he sends people he doesn't know what else to do with. Very expensive for who knows what help, I'm guessing just more pills but I'm hoping something else.
Pam

Pam,

The esthetic appearance of our teeth is not a good indicator that they are healthy. So to have a great smile or similar is wonderful but it can be deceiving. That is why pathology as to what is happening inside our teeth and jaw bone is most important from a health standpoint.

Every root canaled tooth is infected and diseased, there are no exceptions to that. So even a root canaled tooth can look esthetically great but it is black and putrid on the inside.

The itchy feeling indicates an irritant and it may be due to the periodontal ligament still being in the bone. This ligament needs to be removed when the tooth is removed otherwise it will be a constant source of bacteria and inflammation which can eventually lead to referred discomfort or pain as it becomes irritating to the bundles of nerves. All too often people who are diagnosed with facial neuralgia after a tooth has been removed will blame it on the extraction when in fact it may be linked to the ligament being left in the bone. I recall, you didn't see the OS, you had your general dentist remove these teeth, correct? Most general dentists do not remove the ligament as they think the body will just miraculously absorb it.

Just to give you an idea of the purpose of the periodontal ligament and to give you a comparison to something that may help you understand it's purpose and why it should not be left behind after the tooth is removed.
The periodontal ligament is a live and very hearty fibrous tissue that wraps around the circumference of the root structure of the tooth. It helps to protect the tooth from harm and it feeds the tooth and the surrounding bone nourishment via the blood vessels. When the tooth is removed and the ligament is not, the ligament dies and becomes diseased having a negative and unhealthy affect on the bone. The periodontal ligament is comparable to the placenta or after birth of a pregnancy. The ligament and the placenta have the same functions, to protect and nourish as long as there is something present that needs protecting and nourishment. The difference between the two, aside from the obvious, is that the placenta is in tissue and is able to disengage itself with or without help... the ligament is in bone and is not able to disengage itself without physical intervention. You can imagine how ill a woman would become if the placenta were left inside of her body after the birth of her child. So imagine the progression of problems that can occur when the periodontal ligament is left in the jaw bone.

I can no be sure this is your problem as I was not assisting the dentist when he removed your teeth. But all too often this situation occurs and goes undiagnosed and then misdiagnosed as some form of neuralgia.

The only person that can answer the question as to whether the ligament was removed or not was the dentist who extracted the tooth. But do not expect him to be completely honest as to admit he left it behind is not professional in his best interest. Sometimes an xray will show if the ligament is still present. But it may not show until the site has healed for awhile. So maybe you should have an xray done in a few weeks from now.

Also, I believe you previously mentioned that you were using a lot of orajel. Again this stuff can cause further irritation and an unpleasant reaction to occur.

Bryanna

Hello again I am positive he did not remove anything but the tooth. He yanked it out I asked is that it? You don't need to clean anything else out? He said no that's it just the tooth.
So I saw the tooth it looked quite clean nothing else on it. I will ask in the consultation I'm having Monday. I have a feeling they will look at me like I'm speaking A different language. Would this cause this pressure feeling in my other teeth?

Pam