Failed root canal?
 

Hi, In early July I had a painful left cheekbone. I thought I had a sinus infection, but after a few days I realized that my cheekbone pain occurred after eating or drinking something warm. I went to my dentist and was diagnosed with a tooth abscess in tooth 14. He did a vitality test and I never felt a thing. I had a root canal and didn't think any more about it until recently. About a month after my root canal I started having pretty severe pain in my left little finger joint. I didn't injure that finger. Shortly after this point I had strep throat. 2 weeks later I noticed that my shoulders were both very stiff. After another 2 weeks almost all of my joints are painful. I started searching online trying to figure out what is going on with me. Everything keeps pointing toward rheumatoid arthritis. After repeated searches I stumbled upon the connection between root canals and serious illnesses like RA. I made an appt with my doctor and he tested me for RA, lupus and gout. Luckily everything came back negative, but I am still in a lot of pain. I was diagnosed with synovitis. In searching synovitis, it sounds like a precursor to a RA diagnosis to me. I have had the joint pain for 6 weeks now. I want this tooth pulled in order to see if my symptoms disappear afterward. My dentist doesn't want to pull it, so I made an appt in mid October at a biological dentist an hour away. Am I on the right track? What is a safe way to replace this tooth? I don't like bridges since you have to destroy 2 teeth. I've heard implants aren't healthy. Do I just go with an empty spot? Thanks for any guidance!

Welcome Buster23. :Wave-Hello:

Thanks Kitt!

Hi Buster,

It is refreshing to read your post as you connect the dots between your oral and systemic health. Ancient chinese medicine and others similar are convinced that our oral health is the window to our overall well being. My lengthy career in dentistry has without question shown me to believe that connection is very real in every one of us.

Here is an interesting tooth and organ chart. Perhaps you have seen this before? http://naturaldentistry.us/holistic-...nitas-dentist/

The ideal way to look at this chart is to first find the tooth in question. In your case it would be tooth #14. Click on that tooth and you will see the names of connecting organs and various other sections of the body come up on the right of the chart. Now click on the tooth in front, #13, then #15, then the teeth below that line up with those teeth. So that would be #18, #19, #20. The reason you would do it this way is because all of these teeth intricately share the same nerve meridians which means they are intricately connected. I think you will find it interesting what comes up!

I just want to make a note here about blood test results..... standard serum tests can only detect a problem when the problem is chronic or severe enough to be picked up in the blood specimen. So a negative serum test does not necessarily mean that an illness or disease is not brewing in the system.

Seeking a biological dentist will hopefully become a great fit for you and he will be knowledgeable and willing to openly share his opinion on root canaled teeth. Can I ask you where you found the name of this biological dentist?

Regarding the replacement of this tooth. Your options may be a permanent bridge which does require cutting down the adjacent teeth, .....a permanent onlay bridge which requires minimal cutting down of the adjacent teeth,.... a removal appliance called a Nesbit which snaps in and out and replaces that one tooth but it is worn for esthetics and to keep the other teeth from sliding in towards the open space, not for eating..... or a dental implant made of either zircoium or titanium. The research indicates that they are both bio compatible materials providing the recipient is not allergic or sensitive to them. The titanium tends to build up a bio film around it where as the zirconium tends not to build up that same bio film. However, if the bone is healthy and the patient is healthy that bio film does not usually pose a problem.

Hope you found this information helpful.
Bryanna

Thank you very much Bryanna! I found the biological dentist through internet searches. I wasn't sure if I wanted to go there or not. Then I remembered an acquaintance who is extremely health conscience and holistic, so I asked her where she goes for dental work and it was the same place I found online. I have an appt Oct 15th. I appreciate your advice. What you said about negative blood tests and brewing diseases makes sense. I know, with all my being, that I am in the early stages of RA and I am also positive that my root canal is the culprit. I am leaning toward an implant right now. I can't wait to get this tooth pulled and be on the road to recovery.

I had my appt today and am not sure what to think. My X-Ray showed a dark spot above my root canal. They said that could be infection or it could be nothing to worry about. They want me to have it tested by an acupuncture dentist. Apparently he can tell if the root canal is bad by poking my finger. I have 2 baby teeth (no permanent). They want me to have these tested by the acupuncturist too, for a total of $250. Any thoughts?

I also wanted to add that when I get my heart rate up I notice my pulse in the gums above my root canal (which was 3 months ago)...normal or not?

Hi Buster

The truth of the matter is this, sometimes dentists are hesitant to suggest the removal of a root canaled tooth especially to a new patient because they know that this suggestion is frowned upon by most of their peers and certainly by the big kahunas that govern the dental societies. No one wants to jeopardize their livelihood by going against the tide which I have seen happen many times. So if the tooth is not yet a full blown abscess, they may suggest to let it wait or have it "tested" by various means. Ironically, most of the testing methods even though there is some validity to them, are also frowned upon by those same kahunas. It's all about passing the baton to the next guy so as to not have to stand alone on the decision and through this action it confirms that the "patient" ultimately made the decision to remove this tooth. There are some dentists who do not bother to jump through these hoops and just lay down the facts as they are and take their chances with the rest of it. Fortunately that number of dentists is growing but at a snails pace. I hope I have explained that okay. If not let me know and I will try to put it another way.

The fact is that all root canaled teeth are chronically infected and there is no way around that nor is there any means of making that tooth healthy again. The darkened spot above the root as you have stated indicates that the bacteria has proliferated beyond the tooth. Some dentists will even call if "scar tissue". Generally that dark area is a cyst, similar to a pimple, and it is collecting bacteria as a means of trying to contain it within that space. However, due to the vascularity of the mouth that cyst will continue to be nourished by the blood, it will continue to grow and the bacteria will continue to multiply.

The acupuncturist can identify which meridians this tooth follows and where they lead to elsewhere in the body. He can tell you if he feels there are any irritations or disruptions along those meridians at this exact time. But he cannot tell you that this tooth is nothing to worry about for the long term.

The retained deciduous teeth can become a problem so they need to be monitored. Frequently these teeth end up infected and need to be removed. But dental x-rays are pretty good at detecting problems with these type of teeth.

Two things.... if you decide to see the acupuncturist, keep in mind what I have told you here about the information that he is able to provide to you. Also, if you decide to remove this tooth, before choosing a dentist to do that, make these questions a part of that discussion:

1)Unless he is an oral surgeon, ask him if he performs oral surgery on a regular basis?

2) Does he remove the periodontal ligament, debride the socket of all necrotic tissue and bone and rinse with copious amounts of saline?

3) Does he place bone grafts, if so, what material does he recommend using and why?

If you can and you want to, post the xray here. Let me know if you have other questions...
Bryanna

Buster,

That pulsating sensation in the area above this tooth would generally indicate that there is a cyst present and it is in close proximity to your sinus. The cyst could either be pushing on the sinus membrane or could have perforated it. Either scenario is not healthy and could lead to further problems with your sinuses.

Did you tell the dentist about this symptom? If so, what did he say?

Bryanna

Thank you very Bryanna. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your advice. I have not felt well since the root canal. It seems odd to me that it is my mouth and I am willing to pay to have the tooth removed and I am having a hard time finding someone to do it. I understand what you say about the big kahunas. I guess it's a good thing that I am stubborn. One way or another, this tooth is coming out, ligament and all. If I am wrong and my other symptoms don't clear up afterward, oh well. What I am not willing to do it let it fester and continually feel worse and worse. OK, I am done now :). What you are telling me goes along with my gut instinct. Again, thank you for you input. You are helping me and a lot of other people immensely.

Yes, I mentioned it to the new dentist. She said that is generally not a good sign, but that the acupuncturist would be able to tell us more. What you said about the sinuses hit home. I have been having sinus issues lately, but wasn't sure if it was due to the change in the weather.

Buster,

I am a huge believer in acupuncture and I believe the acupuncturist will have the best of intentions. However, they know nothing about root canaled teeth with regard to the anatomical nature of the chronic infection in the jaw. Whatever advice they offer you will be short lived as long as that tooth is present.

I would however suggest acupuncture for post op healing of the extraction!

Bryanna

I went with my gut feeling and decided to try a different dentist. I am very happy to report that based on my symptoms and insistence, she gave me a referral to an oral surgeon and I am having it extracted on Nov 5th. I can't wait. The arthritis that started after my root canal in July has gotten worse. I am also having ringing in my ear near the tooth. Thanks Bryanna!

Hi Buster,

Glad you found a dentist you feel comfortably working with.

Hopefully your symptoms will dissipate after the tooth is removed.

Keep us posted.
Bryanna

Good news/bad news.....I had the tooth extracted a week ago. About 12 hours after it was removed I started noticing that my arthritis was going away. Yippee. However, 4 days after the extraction I noticed some pain in my gums above the extraction. It gradually worsened, so I call the surgeons office and they called in an antibiotic for me. That was on Sunday. Every day since then my pain has gotten worse. I went and saw my surgeon yesterday. He said everything looked ok and to wait until Friday to see if the pain started to subside. He gave me a prescription for pain meds the day of the extraction (last weds) and I didn't take any until today. I woke up this morning with swelling on my cheek. I called them back to report this and am going back in to be seen tomorrow. I'm happy that my arthritis went away, but not happy that I traded it for a whole new set of problems.

Hi Buster,

Glad to hear that your arthritic symptoms have improved since the removal of your tooth.

Given your description of the pain and when you first experienced pain, I would say you probably have a dry socket. This needed to be seen by the oral surgeon soon after that pain developed so he could have treated it. To be honest, I am surprised that he said it looked yesterday especially since it was not treated and you were still having that pain. The swelling could indicate that there is inflammation from having the dry socket or it could be sinus related. The antibiotic will help but the site may need a little intervention.

Did the surgeon mention anything about the sinuses when he extracted the tooth? Like the root was in close proximity to it... there was a sinus perforation or communication... the infection (black area on the xray above the tooth) was into or near the sinus... anything like that???

It would be wise to ask him.... "Did I have or do I have a dry socket?" Also ask him the same questions that I asked you about the sinuses.

What have you been rinsing your mouth with?

Are you brushing and flossing all of your teeth?

Have you been eating on that side of your mouth?

I also want to tell you that although it feels like you have traded one issue for another.... the issue you have now is treatable and hopefully it will be better soon. The RA would have been a progressive condition AND you would have still had an infected tooth in your head. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel... it's just covered in pain and disappointment right now :/

Bryanna

Thanks Bryanna. Your last sentence made me chuckle. I have been using a prescription antiseptic mouth rinse. He did not mention anything about my sinuses. He did have to really work to get the tooth out. It was a really large tooth with long roots. He thinks that the soreness is from all of the wiggling and tugging. He did mention that it could be the start of a dry socket, but that it didn't look like one yet. He put something in there to help moisten the area. I can't remember what it was called but I think it started with an A and there was a G in there somewhere :) He also said it could be that there is a fracture in there. The area right above my teeth is bowed out, hard, red, sore. He said it didn't feel like a fracture. I'm going to request an xray today.

When I first saw my original dentist back in July, he thought, based on my xray, that tooth 13 was the problem. The vitality test pointed to tooth 14. I had 14 extracted. 13 has been feeling pretty tender. I was assuming that it was because it got agitated during the extraction. Now I am wondering if I also have an abscess in 13. The cheekbone pain I am feeling now is very similar to the cheekbone pain I felt in July.

He gave me a prescription for pain meds the day of the extraction. I didn't have to use any pain meds until yesterday. I had severe throbbing. Today I still have swelling, but so far no pain.

Well, its a long shot but it is a shot. There are a small number of dentists who are using a root canal filling material that has formaldehyde as its active ingredient. The theory is that the powder formaldehyde, when mixed with the liquid components, off gasses into the nooks and crannies of the tooth therefore "disinfecting it". The problem is that this material can seep thru the porous tooth and affect surrounding issues and bones. And worse than that, the canals are bleeding and therefore the formaldehyde can get into the blood system and cause systemic problems. There is a long long long story about this issue that the dental world knows about but forgot to tell the rest of us. "Luckily" I was only left with severe nerve pain. Two other stories that I know of left two ladies with a chronic bone infection that about killed one woman and is continuing (after 10+ years) to work on another one. I am aware of a woman who believes it was used on her and she suffers from systemic injuries. She never found out for sure but her dentist lunged at her when she asked if he used Sargenti Paste on her and then filed a restraining order. Unfortunately, her statute of limitations ran out while she was too sick to deal with the legal aspect that would have gotten her some answers. She was diagnosed with heavy metal poisoning. This stuff also has lead and mercury in it.

I was absolutely flabbergasted when I found this out about my injury.

The ADA's ONLY recognized endodontic specialty group (The American association of endodontics, NOT to be confused with the American Endodontic Society which is nothing more than a group of dentists who push the use of this all but illegal material and absolutely put out false information about it including pending FDA approval) is STRONGLY against it. The ADA doesn't recommend it and the FDA claims that it can not be considered safe and effective.

Here are some things that you should look at. It will not allow me to post links so, I'll tell you how to search for them. The first is the AAE's position paper on it. It was originally published in 2005 (I think) and then reissued in 2013. I don't know why they only put the 2013 date in the footer because it makes it look like a new position. Google "Position Statement on Paraformaldehyde-Containing Filling and Sealing Materials". it should take you to the AAE.org site. If both the other lady and you had this material used on them, you are poster children for this AAE position paper where it talks about the possibility of systemic damage.

this next source is to a seriously out of date website that I built when this happened to me as I foolishly thought that if only the regulators knew how much information was out there, surely they would stop this. HA HA...how stupid and naïve could I have been. But, watch the NBC Philadelphia video on it.

Google "sargenti opposition society"


And forget what you read that comes from the American Endodontic Society. I could fill volumes with misinformation that comes out of them, the least of which is their status with the FDA. Never approved, not legitimately working on it, and never will be approved.

feel free to private message me if you want and we can talk about it. Send me your dentist's name and I'll look to see if it is one of the ones that we know are users of it. If this is something that you want to pursue, the first thing that you need to do is get a copy of your dental records before you let the dentist know that you are looking for this. Look for entries like RC2B, RC2W, TCM, paste, N2, N2 Universal...

IF an endodontist did the root canal, it is unlikely to be your issue but not a guarantee. It has been taught in every accredited dental school, since the 70's not to use it and for good reason. What happened to me is now taught at dental schools as the reason you don't use this. My xrays and glossy surgery pictures are in the two leading endodontic textbooks in the U.S. in the chapter about Legal and Ethical Implications of Dentistry (or something like that).

I hope this is not your case.

After rereading the thread, I'm wondering if you ever saw the xray? If so, was there any white material showing outside the bottom of the tooth? Were the canals filled to where they were solid and all the say to the tip of the tooth?

One initial concern about Sargenti is that the canals are not filled all the way to the end or there are voids in the filling. There has been a school of thought around some of the Sargenti using community that since the formaldehyde gasses can go thru the tooth, you don't need to worry about filling them properly....not the truth.

I'm glad that your RA type symptoms went away and I'm glad you found a bonafide OS to do it. There isn't much support for biological/holistic dentists in the dental community and I will admit that I wouldn't use one myself.

If Sargenti Paste (by whatever name) was used on you, you need to find a lawyer. Im not a sue happy person but there are many dentists who would use this crap if not for the fear of litigation. And, thankfully, some insurance companies will not cover a dentist for malpractice if they use this material. They attempt to get around it by coating the outside of the canal with Sargenti and then filling it with the standard of care material guttal percha. It doesn't matter. The sargenti is a part of the permanent filling material and IMHO, in the worst place where the formaldehyde can seep out of the tooth. If you had an overfill (material outside the tooth), the consequences are much worse.

When I was injured, a lot of the dental community believed that it was no longer used...including an OS in NJ who said "No one uses that anymore except in 3rd world countries"....well, welcome to the USA, a third world country. These dentists don't want to be exposed, if you watched the NBC video, you saw that they don't tell their patients. Most settle out of court to keep their secret safe. In a recent newsletter of the Sargenti group they said that they need to stop settling cases and let Sargenti Paste stand on its own in the court system. LOL! But, this does tell me that there are people continuing to be injured by it and once discovered, sue. Its not easy to find a lawyer who will take a dental malpractice suit but I can get you in touch with someone who will. As I said, I'm not sue happy but this is different. The OS who did my surgery kept telling me "GO FIND A LAWYER, I DON'T POINT FINGERS BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT, GO FIND A LAWYER".

BTW- most dentist use diluted household bleach to disinfect the canals before they fill them. It works for probably 99.9% of the legitimate root canals. Sargenti dentists are frequently of the belief that they don't have to disinfect before they fill because the formaldehyde filling will do that for them and allow them to skip that step. All that said, its hard to tell what one sargenti dentist does vs another since they live in a closet.

I could write a book.

OK, last post (I hope). I have too much info rattling around in my brain about this to be able to get the pertinent parts out in a single post. :mad:

Sargenti Paste (aka all those other names I mentioned) is advertised by its proponents to have a "disinfecting" period of 7-10 days....so, in other words, the formaldehyde, which is a fixative, will continue to seep into the tissue/nerve/bone that it comes in contact with for those 7-10 days creating more and more damage. This is in contrast to an acid burn where your tissue will attempt to create a crust (or barrier) to stop the penetration. this is why they use formaldehyde for embalming. And the % of formaldehyde in sargenti paste is well within the range of embalming materials. Remember those frogs in biology class...they never came back to life!!!

This "disinfecting" was clear to me after my root canal when my lip and chin started off being numb and over the next week was turning to horrific burning...and where it now stays 9+ years later. My inferior alveolar nerve was burned (nerve runs below bottom molars and feeds sensation to the lip, chin and gums). And oh what a joy my life has become. This root canal ruined me physically, mentally, financially.....and all this from what I thought was going to be a run of the mill procedure.

OK, I have a soap box the size of montana about this. I just want other people to know what I wish someone had told me. It isn't right that this is allowed to go on and us not know about it. Unless you frequent the AAE web site or watch Good Morning America, Dateline or 60 minutes in the early 90's, I'm not sure how you are supposed to know about this. I have those news stories but I can't post them because of copyright and I cant get those networks to respond to my requests. You think as bad as their reports were on this material, they would want to revisit this and tell some more of us about it. :mad::mad::mad:

This is bad stuff. I can write a book!

Thank you for all of the information pained. I will definitely look into it. That is some scary stuff.
I am on day 11 after my extraction. I have been on 2 different antibiotics and have been seen by an OS 3 times, including an emergency visit on Saturday night for an abscess drainage. The abscess is as large as it was on Saturday. I am going back tomorrow for a follow up, which will include another drainage, I assume. For some reason the antiobiotics, first Zithromax and then clindamycin, are not working. I am allergic to penicillins. Ugh!

How are you doing now?
 

I hope you are feeling better, Buster! Any updates on how you are doing?

Hi Buster,

So sorry for my delay in replying to you. I have been so busy with school and work.... will try to make up for some lost time here.

Did YOU bring up anything about the sinus being involved or did you just assume that the dentist would just automatically mention it to you? This is something you have to bring up to him as he may not think it's something he needs to tell you. Some patients do not want to know too much and some dentists make that assumption automatically.

Tooth #13 can be sore from the extraction procedure due to the bone being traumatized during the removal of the adjacent tooth.

He thought there might be a fracture? Did he elaborate on that at all?
Sometimes the buccal ridge portion of the bone is fractured during the removal of a tooth. But this can usually be seen on a post op xray.

Did he take the xray? Can you post it here?

Bryanna

Hi Buster,

I just replied to your previous post to me. So please look for that okay.

The information about the disinfectants used during root canal therapy as "pained" wrote about are a very important topic. They certainly warrant attention simply because people should be informed of their toxicity. It is very true that formocresol is something that is never "safely" used in the mouth. It is also true that once it is used, there is no way to rinse it out as that is the purpose of using it.. to continue to kill off all live tissue. So yes, there can be residual problems in the bone, sinus and beyond when formocresol has been used during a root canal procedure.

You can find out what was used by requesting your dental records from the dentist who did the root canal on #14. Legally he had to record what he used. Do not tell anyone at the office when you request the records why you want them as it is too easy to alter them. Keep in mind that no one can refuse to give you your records, they are legally your property.

I have a feeling that the abscess is sinus related and the only way to determine what antibiotic is effective in treating it would be to have the bacteria swabbed and cultured. An oral surgeon or perhaps an Ear Nose and Throat specialist would do this. Infections, especially those related to the mouth and sinus, can contain multiple species of bacteria. Repeated antibiotics are not going to kill off the bacteria unless they are sensitive to the species of bacteria causing the infection. It is not healthy to be on antibiotics in the first place, never mind repeated dosages that are obviously ineffective.

If your dentist is not willing to check further into the cause of your infection, then please seek a different oral surgeon. Also you may need to consult with an ENT physician as well.

Are you taking a probiotic? I may have asked you this before, I just don't remember. It is imperative that you take a multi strain probiotic as by now you have lost a great deal of healthy intestinal bacteria and can end up very sick from that. A good multi strain probiotic is made by Custom Probiotics. They have a few different ones but the one I use is the Adult Formula CP-1. There are several places online that carry it. The place I purchase mine from is pureformulas.com.

Bryanna

Well, things are finally better! I had my gums drained. After that the throbbing and pain went away, but they were still swollen. A few days later I accidentally hit that area with my toothbrush. It bled like crazy and I thought it was a bad thing, but the swelling went away and everything cleared up a few days later.

Before all of that, I asked the oral surgeon to take an X-ray, but he said the small bones wouldn't show up, so no X-ray.

I asked the oral surgeon if I could have a hole into my sinuses. He said they normally close on their own and we should wait. I contacted my ent and he said the same thing.

I asked theOS about sargenti paste and he said nobody in this area (madison, wi) uses it. He said my X-ray from before the extraction shows gutta percha, not sargenti. Thanks

Hi Buster,

So you had an incision and drainage done again in that same area. I am glad that it's feeling better but to be honest, I know exactly what your dentist is doing and I think you may have a pocket of infection that keeps filling up and it could be in relation to your sinus. A radio graph should have been taken as that may have be helpful to see if that is what is happening. Also, I am concerned that the OS has not confirmed that there was or was not a communication into your sinus. He should be making that diagnosis very clear as to one or the other.

Not all sinus perforations heal on their own especially those that are open due to infection and the OS and ENT are completely aware of that.

If this fills up again, please see a different oral surgeon and make sure an xray is taken.

Regarding the sargenti paste issue.... just so you know it is unfortunate that the dentists that often use this stuff, do not admit to it and there is no governing body to tell them to stop using it. Besides that there are other products that contain formaldehyde or a comparative substance that is used during the root canal therapy. Unless the treating dentist honestly discloses what he used, no one would ever know.

Bryanna


QUOTE=Buster23;1110223]Well, things are finally better! I had my gums drained. After that the throbbing and pain went away, but they were still swollen. A few days later I accidentally hit that area with my toothbrush. It bled like crazy and I thought it was a bad thing, but the swelling went away and everything cleared up a few days later.

Before all of that, I asked the oral surgeon to take an X-ray, but he said the small bones wouldn't show up, so no X-ray.

I asked the oral surgeon if I could have a hole into my sinuses. He said they normally close on their own and we should wait. I contacted my ent and he said the same thing.

I asked theOS about sargenti paste and he said nobody in this area (madison, wi) uses it. He said my X-ray from before the extraction shows gutta percha, not sargenti. Thanks[/QUOTE]

I just read this and am wondering if the OP Buster is still around and how did all of this finish???

I've read too many threads here that have no ending, no updates.

It would be so great if more people would keep reporting and updating on their case. I think it is important. I think many more of us could learn and benefit from sharing our stories. Too many times a thread just stops - all while the OP is still having issues - and then we can never learn. I guess the world is not ideal, but I cannot believe that all these "no-completion" people just disappear or lose ability to write and therefore can never tell their story in full!

I guess you may say I'm a dreamer (but I'm not the only one :winky: ) ... so I am appealing to whoever reads this and has a story to tell and asks for help here - to keep telling it until the resolution. I think it is fair - you ask for help, you get help, therefore you should give something back, shouldn't you!

And at the same time - a very big thank you to all those people who keep updating us with their progress as they go through their dental ordeal! :)

Femlex,

It seems that people only come to a "dental forum" when they have a problem. Dentistry is not a favorite topic for most people.... me included!!

But it would be nice to hear back from those that have shared their story with us to give an update on how they're doing. I do have a feeling that there may be a lot of people reading these threads, both established posters and non members, who stop by often just to read. Which is okay too!

Bryanna