Can you get a concussion from turning your head too fast?
 

I figured some of you on this forum are quite experienced with all sorts of trauma related to the brain so I thought you could help out on this little OCD obsessive anxiety thought that seems to be bothering me a lot at the moment. Now this might sound stupid, but is our brains so fragile, that simply rotating our head (without shaking) to either the left or right rapidly enough with a sudden stop using your neck muscles pose a sufficient enough risk to be deemed as a potential cause of concussion?

I mean I originally did it to test if I got dizzy by turning my head fast, stupid I know, and I think I accidentally went too rough on the rotation and stopped my head too suddenly. I got dizzy and my neck hurt a little now but nothing serious, and I suspect the dizziness might come from my obsessive worrying of concussions and maybe due to the inner middle ear getting shaken around or something?

This just really bothers me, can the brain really crash into the skull by a simple movement from the body a.ka. the neck? I heard that rotational concussions are the worst :(

Thanks in advance!

My brain is very sensitive to rotations. I can cause a metallic taste in my mouth when I do this. I have learned to just not do this. Whether is is a concussion by medical terms or just causes some concussion symptoms does not really matter. If it causes symptoms, try to avoid doing it.

It is counter productive to get stuck on diagnostic terms. Symptoms are what matters.

Learn from this mistake and try to move on with your life better understanding your limitations.

My best to you.

If you're already a TBI patient, rapid head movement, as Mark said, can set off any number of symptoms. As often as not, they are the product of damage in the neck, as opposed to a new TBI.

That's not to say that rapid head movements can't cause TBI. However, that has occurred in people who engage in repeated, long term, violent head banging behaviour, like some punk rock fans. That's a long way from a simple, rapid head shake.

By rotational injury, do you mean diffuse axonal injury, where the brain is sent spinning around inside the skull? It takes quite a bit of force to set off that motion. It is more likely to happen in things, like high speed MVAs.

Welcome Minimac. :Wave-Hello:

Hello minimac,

Welcome to the NeuroTalk Support Groups.

My first thoughts when reading your message straight off the bat...

apart from neck injury, it is possible that you may have dislodged some crystals in your inner ear and that has affected your balance. If the dizzy feeling has subsided with time it's possible crystals have been absorbed back into the body.

You probably know already but it is possible for a person who has anxiety to feel dizzy.

I wouldn't go spinning your head around like that again. :)

All your responses are greatly appreciated and thanks for the introductions! :)

As to confirm some of your speculations: I wouldn't label myself as ever being under the influence of TBI. I've only been self diagnosed of having a concussion as a kid due to the fact I was having a severe headache straight after a hard fall, though lasting only a couple of hours. Hence I believe it is a requirement to have symptoms of PCS before you're at risk of a TBI?

I read somewhere that a direct impact increases the odds of receiving a concussion by up to 50 times? Opposed to a indirect impact (rotation etc?). Anyways is there a difference in terms of shaking and rotating the head? Because yeah, I do kind of fear that my sudden rapid head rotation could cause tearing of axons? What mostly is bothering me is if we are able to produce the same force with our neck muscles as in a vehicle accident :confused:

Some claim you need to have the force equivalent of breaking/snapping your neck before a concussion can occur, this is with whiplash though.

PCS is the persistence of concussion symptoms, after the period when, all things being equal, most patients are recovered. Most people who suffer a TBI do not go on to be diagnosed with PCS. PCS is a TBI complication.

Oh yeah I nearly forgot, concussion IS at least an mTBI :)

Anyways I nearly answered my own questions from a research article regarding this subject just now:

This calms me a bit, but nevertheless, I will not attempt to do this little "trick" again since merely fearing something makes you dizzy can apparently make you dizzy ironically enough :winky:

Minimac,

You said "Hence I believe it is a requirement to have symptoms of PCS before you're at risk of a TBI?" I don't understand what you are trying to say. Did you mean to say "It is a requirement to have symptoms of PCS before you're at risk of a TBI DIAGNOSIS ?"

Please do not get stuck worrying about diagnostic terms. TBI, mTBI, concussions are meaningless for treatment and recovery. It is the symptoms of the injury that matter, regardless of cause. I have had symptoms develop where doctors say I could not have suffered a concussion because the forces were too weak. Yeah right. Tell that to my symptoms, head ache, mental confusion, etc.

My best to you.

Yeah I was kind of convinced that PCS was a necessity for any long term TBI. :o

I completely agree with you that getting hung up on diagnostics doesn't get you far, while at the same time, symptoms can likely also mislead since a lot of factors can be in play. For instance, as some others have mentioned, the symptoms can be generated from anxiety or the inner ear crystals (as probably is in my case) gets shaken up resulting in some of them dislodging. Though I don't hope that shaking of the inner ear can cause any permanent hearing loss without symptoms such as tinnitus.

You are linking issues that have no definitive connection. Inner ear crystals help with balance. They do not effect hearing or tinnitus. Tinnitus and hearing loss are not directly connected. You can get both from loud sounds but tinnitus is more of a nerve issues where hearing loss is usually a structural issue.

As you said, anxiety can be an issue. It can magnify many symptoms but is not usually a cause.

What symptoms are you struggling with ?

Please tell us about your concussion.

Well my symptoms which consisted of dizziness and a bit of a sore neck are now gone. The last time I was sure I suffered from a concussion is nearly a decade ago. Will the brain be more susceptible to a second concussion after having a first one? Regardless of time passed in-between say a decade? Will it be more vulnerable to injury for a lifetime? I thought we were build to be fairly resilient to fast head rotations due to the cerebrospinal fluid preventing collision with the inner skull. How fragile is the brain actually when it comes into contact with the skull? Does simply a light touch cause bruising on the brain or does it take a somewhat of a slam to cause injury?

Solved!

Not to bring this thread up again but just to end it with some good trustworthy news on this question, if anyone else are to wonder if this can happen, the answer is apparently a most definite no!

Today I've been talking with my local doctor about my earlier concussion many years ago, which also, since she declared it was a mild one I had, it can no longer affect my performance at all. According to her, rotating/shaking your head from side to side, rapidly or not, cannot under any circumstance cause a concussion unless it happened in a car crash with rear end collision. It requires a lot more force than a quick shaking, even if it is followed by a sudden change in rotation!

Just to confirm everything.
Good day to you all! :)

I doubt that you can get a concussion from just twisting your head too fast side to side, you might get concussion symptoms (such as dizziness/vertigo, nausea, neck pain, etc) especially if you're suffering from PCS.
For example, my otoloaryngologist (advanced ENT) had me shake my head up-down and side to side very quickly to look at how my eyes responded, and for a couple of days after that I felt worse.

As for the authority of any doctor on concussions - I've learned in the past two years that most doctors really have only a vague idea of what concussions are, and when it comes to PCS even most of the neurologists are clueless.
I've heard everything from "it's anxiety", "bad case of flu" to flat out telling me that what I'm experiencing is not possible after such a long time post concussion and I need to go see a shrink.

[QUOTE=Minimac;1110658]Solved!

According to her, rotating/shaking your head from side to side, rapidly or not, cannot under any circumstance cause a concussion unless it happened in a car crash with rear end collision. It requires a lot more force than a quick shaking, even if it is followed by a sudden change in rotation!

QUOTE]

She's WRONG.

Not about not being able to get concussed from a routine shaking. That's correct - and you have nothing to worry about.

She is, however, GROSSLY overestimating the force required to cause a closed head injury.

There are DOCUMENTED cases (does your doc read journals? :rolleyes:) of headbangers sustaining concussions. Similarly, a lot of hockey players suffer DOCUMENTED concussions from checks that jerk their necks back and forth, without their head ever coming into contact with the ice, glass, etc...

Actually, if you look at the inside of the skull, you will see a very rough surface. There is not enough CSFluid to protect the brain from grating against this rough surface during a strong rotational force. The force one would exert during a simple fast right and left is unlikely to cause damage. The rotational acceleration would need to be faster than most neck muscles can generate. Repeatedly whipping the head back and forth is another issue. The cumulative effect of this repetition could cause trauma.

This might not be directly linked to my question, but generally speaking of the causes of concussions, since it's now confirmed I've, along with all of you, at least suffered a mTBI at some point in our lives, what is the aftermath?

I've heard that repetitive head trauma, concussive or subconcussive, can lead to CTE and/or eventually dementia due to the build up of tau protein in regions of the brain. Do you guys think that one single concussion develops abnormal levels of tau in the brain? Or do we have the ability to heal and prevent permanent damage if no further interruption of brain activity are to be present? I've just seen an NFL documentary where they seem to mention tau protein a lot, but according to them, it normally doesn't build up by one concussion. Long term repetitive hits are apparently required and some even have a genetic advantage. Anyways, will there be the slightest amount of abnormal levels of tau protein in the brain just because of one concussive impact during one's lifetime?

I've exasperated my symptoms from shaking a salad dressing too hard!

Minimac,

There are many reasons for tau protein to malfunction in the brain. Researchers are looking at those with excessive levels of these malfunctions and trying to find ways to reduce them. There is not as much opportunity to investigate the early/lesser accumulations of these defective tau proteins. Tau proteins are an important part of neurological function but it is when they become defective and get tangled that they are a problem.

Due to the prevalence of Alzheimer's Disease, the research is going strong with opes of finding ways to prevent these defects. Hopefully, the treatment will be affordable for the masses.

Getting worried about Tau proteins and CTE can be counter productive. The best solution is to use a good brain supplement regimen and stay mentally active. And, reduce stress in your life.

Here's a good video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsH3W4fc4kI

Sorry for bringing this thread up again, but I think it would be better posting on this thread instead of proceeding on to make a whole new one. I have an extra question on this matter that I don't believe I got answered, it's really just concerning the occurrence of pressure in the head when a fast head turning happens. Is this some form of injury to the brain? Or is it an irritation of the blood circulation getting messed up from turning/shaking too quickly and too sudden, maybe the inner ear crystals getting shaken? I noticed when it inevitably happens from time to time, if it's severe enough, a tingling pressure happens in the head and my head also starts to heat up. Pretty sure the heating process is simply the product of my anxiety emerging from the act, but I'd still like to hear some of your thoughts on this matter. Can it really be injury, or does it just feel as such? I mean I think we've all had that head jerk caused by our own neck movement due to the speed of the turn exceeding our expectation for various reasons (ex. getting scared resulting in a quick jerk backwards or head turn, exercise etc.) Anyways, I just wanted to know if that tingling pressure is a normal thing to experience, and if there should be any reason to worry?

There is no reason to worry. Many of these feeling were happening before the concussion but were just ignored. Now that the concussion has caused a focus on these feelings, they become noticeable and sometimes even exaggerated due to anxiety.

report this to your doctor. Did you get an MRI of the head and neck initially? If not, one may be helpful. If you have an unidentified Chiari malformation at the base of your skull, sudden movement may compress it and the upper spinal column.

No I don't have any serious issues like that. It's just that I've read some of you can get a concussion by as much as a simple shaking of the head due to the cumulative injuries building up apparently, even road bumps, I mean wow! Now, that I know of, I have only sustained 1 mild concussion during my life and my research has lead me to believe that since it's over 7 years ago, the odds are no longer increased of me sustaining another one as opposed to an uninjured person. When searching on shaking of the head and concussion, nothing solid can really be found on the matter. The closest I could come to anything was headbanging and that's a bit too violent an act to describe my scenario. Even then they state it's most likely to happen by forward and backward motion/jerking, up and down, contrary to rotational jerking, side to side turning. Now why is that? Is there more space for the brain in the front and back of the inner skull? Is the brain tight fitting in the sides of the skull? Some people say that as you grow older your brain grows into proportion to fit the size of your skull. So why can it still bang around in there by shaking? Not that it's important to know why, what I really wanna know is if jerking/shaking can reach the equivalent of 50 G's while slamming into the skull so it actually produces a concussion as seen with direct impacts. I know linear and rotational forces use different measuring techniques, but just in overall comparison.

Now with shaking, up and down is apparently the most damaging. But one thing I can't wrap my head around, is if for example a boxer hits someone on the jaw and he rotates his head, it has a much higher risk of severe damage. Now why is that then? Is it because the head both goes up while simultaneously rotating, or is it really more damaging to rotate your head rather than shaking it up and down? Or is it simply because it's a whole different case when direct impact is involved?

Why is it that the newest research indicate that headbanging is more likely to give you a stroke before giving you an mTBI such as concussion? Since the shakes I've had is nowhere near that of continuing head bangish behavior, I'm calm. But of course I'm anxious to know if it can be counted on. There is nearly nothing to be found about the relation of concussion and violent head shaking behavior, only baby shaken syndrome of course but that's it. I've had a hard time getting any solid info on this phenomenon.

Have people here said that? :confused:

I've always understood those messages (e.g. road bumps) to mean that bumps like that can sometimes in some people exacerbate their symptoms rather than "get a concussion"

Hey guys I'm going to piggyback on this thread for my question. My last event was in October and, by and large, I've felt quite recovered from it. I've mentioned before (long time ago when I first started posting) that I work retail and of course our busiest time just ended. We wound up short staffed so I ended up having to work a lot of long hours (16 hours by myself on the 23rd for example) but aside from being exceedingly tired I feel I came through it pretty well.

Fast forward to this morning and I woke up with fuzzy vision and overall sleepiness. I have no memory of hitting my head other than light taps that didn't hurt or anything. All I can think of is when I get ready for the day I have my hair wrapped in a towel, I bend over and kind of wring it out and then take the towel off and kind of whip my head back up. I can't believe that's enough to do something but in reading this thread maybe it is. Does anybody have any thoughts? I'm pretty concerned because I was off work for 4 months last year and I just don't know how tolerant they'll be if this continues, not mention the financial angle.

Thanks in advance.

Whipping your head can be stressful to your neck. Plus, there can be plaques in the vertebral arteries that can become dislodged and cause trouble from the neck movement.

Then, a poor nights sleep can cause these symptoms, too.

The upside down to right side up in a quick movement can be too much for the vestibular system for some.

I suggest you reduce the forces when you whip your head back, just as a precaution.

Socks,

I haven't tried that but t I know my head would not tolerate it currently.

Bud

Well, guess it's already my turn to bring this thread back from the dead, yet again! My concern this time revolves around whipping your head back an forth instead of turning it side to side. So in a way, I'm worrying about the opposite, at least in form of directions. So if for example you stand still, look up in the air quickly followed by a quick look back to the ground, would this up an down movement with the body standing still, cause cumulative injury resulting in sub concussive blows? Or does it take a bit of force to cause that too? I mean in headbanging you use the body to create extra force of some sort, what if you're simply standing still and only using your head to look up and down really quickly. If it were to cause cumulative injury sometimes by doing this, wouldn't it take hundreds to thousands of times in a relative short time span for problems to arise? I mean it's pretty much impossible to give a full blown concussion from simply looking up in the sky fast or down at the ground fast, right? Think about if were scared for example, if a ball is over our head about to hit us, I guess our body unconsciously does a fast movement to look up with out heads. I have OCD, so I easily get scared by any fast movement of my head, so I have to do it consciously several times after with even faster movement, to ensure that no symptoms other than anxiety appears. So I'm just worried if I've made it all worse and causing countless of sub concussive blows.

To summarize, I remember I got told on here that fast backward or forward motion with the head could cause cumulative injury tearing axons, but isn't that only with headbanging type of behavior where their whole upper body is in motion to produce the required force? What if you only use your head fast up and down, similar to turning your head side to side, the only difference is the linear and rotational factors here. Whipping up/down is linear, turning side to side is rotational, is there any difference in terms of potential dangers of the two? Am I gonna be okay from these couple of super fast up/down head movements with the neck?

Hi minimac,

I'm reposting a part of what I wrote to you on your "Leaning head up against wall" thread from just over a week ago.

In that thread you were recreating the action of your head banging against a wall - a compulsive sounding behaviour. In this post you're recreating other types of head movements.

My edited post to you below.

___________


You sound as if you're stuck in a loop.

You mentioned OCD in your first post I'm wondering if you've been diagnosed with OCD prior to head injury.

If your head injury was 7 years ago, I wonder if you've been in this loop for 7 years and have just found an outlet here to vent it or have these worries and concerns just started?

>

Your posts read as if you're stuck. You are recreating scenarios in your head and in reality to test situations and so your obsessive thinking is no longer just obsessive thinking, it's now playing out into compulsions.

Obsessions are thoughts.
Compulsions are actions

Obsessive thoughts grow and grow until there is some temporary relief by acting out the compulsion.

(having said that some people just have obsessive thinking but don't have the compulsive part but your posts suggest you're acting out scenarios)

____________


I know you have said you have a family member who is a Psychologist, but I'm wondering if you see a professional counsellor for support and if you are having any type of treatment for your OCD - medication or CBT or something else? If you're not, then it might be really worthwhile doing that to save yourself so much anguish.

I'm also curious if you have Motor Tics as well as your OCD?

I don't have motor tics, it just so happens to me, that the more I fear of doing a certain movement the more I attract it in a way, and the more I pay attention to it, if I ever were to do it. You're right, it's compulsions and I regret doing them after the temporary relief has passed, right now for example, I wish I would've never done that reassurance compulsion. I can see now that simply doing it once wouldn't have hurt, but now I'm worried about the repetitive conscious movements I've done afterwards to reassure myself nothing has happened. Problem is, it's counteractive. I guess I just have to remind myself that acting out my compulsions will generate more anxiety one way or another.

minimac,

Somebody who does headbanging is asking for trouble. Just a quick look up or down is not going to cause damage. As I said before, it may strain the neck, especially if the neck has been previously injured.

The important part to this is. You can teach yourself to not respond with quick head movements. I've done it. And, once you have realized you have been startled into a quick head movement, don't repeat it. You are only reinforcing the behavior.

My best to you.

I get odd symptoms when i move my neck too - and it is my neck as i've tested it when my head was stationery and moved the rest of my body.
Basically my upper cheeks flush/blush and my heart rate goes up a little, ie an adrenaline rush, + i get a release of sweet mucus at the back of my throat on occasion too, actually thats rather pleasant :)
It really doesnt matter at what speed i move my head or whether its left or right, up or down.

It doesnt affect me in any other way that i've identified.
My cheeks flushing was a very marked symptom in the first couple of weeks post injury (sweet taste came 4 weeks or so in, have a theory i was in ketosis at the time to explain sweet taste and that somehow the taste got imprinted in some fashion despite getting out of ketosis - Drs here are a bit baffled!) but now is fairly mild although its been at this "level" for some time now.

do you reckon i should avoid provoking these symptoms?

that would make further neck rehab rather difficult of course :) and i'm v keen to continue this as I've identified that my dizziness in particular is stemming from my neck :)

many thanks!

So moving your head from side to side really quickly in a linear fashion, has the same effect as moving your head up/down quickly? Or is the odds of tearing axons greater with up/down movement? I recall that's been said. Anyways, so even if I moved my head up/down as fast as I potentially could, it wouldn't cause damage to the brain? Of course it would be harsh on the neck as I am feeling at this moment, and I can surely tell I ain't ever gonna do reassurance compulsions again, I am still a bit worried that it causes cumulative sub concussive damage of some sort, I think I moved my head up and down almost as fast as I could just to calm myself down, as stupid as it may sound. Yep, so much for the logic of OCD. Reading from others here, the diziness I had after it could then be from anxiety, the inner ear or even from the neck apparently. Last but not least, it could be from sub concussive blows it might have produced, which I really hope isn't the case. I don't hope it can be termed as headbanging since there is no movement of the other body parts, and even then, new research seems to indicate that the odds of any brain damage is very low even from headbanging, which I find hard to believe.

What I really want to know is pretty much just if there is any difference from whipping the head up and down or side to side, both in linear and rotational cases. If so, what and why? Is the space between the skull and the brain the same in the front/back as it is in the sides of brain and inner skull? Can the brain easier get shaken from up and down movement rather than side to side? Sorry for always trying to squeeze in a lot of questions in one go.

I don't think there is an answer to your question. Side to side, front to back, up and down, they all have movements but unless you did them continuously for many many repetitions, I doubt they would make any difference. I have told you this previously. Sub-concussive impacts cause damage when there are hundreds of them over a relatively short period of time

You are asking hypothetical questions that do not seem to have a legitimate purpose. Are you planning on an activity where you would need to repetitively move your head back and forth in any of these directions ?

Tearing axons is not the only way a concussion manifests. Plus, axon shearing is not necessarily an immediate event. The axons can be strained resulting in slow deterioration. You said "Or is the odds of tearing axons greater with up/down movement? I recall that's been said." I don't recall anything like that.

Nobody is going to test somebody by having them move their head repeatedly to see if it causes any damage. The only live concussion testing done is done on rats. The research done with football players is not accurate enough to pinpoint the difference between concussions caused by different directions of force.

Are you getting any serious counseling for your OCD ? You really need somebody to help you let go of these concerns. I don't think any amount of factual information is going to change your OCD regarding this. Your mind will continue to find a new way to obsess about these issues.

So just to be clear, the internal weird feeling as if my brain slams into the skull is just an illusion of some sort? To describe it, it's in a way the same tingling feeling I got from fast side to side movement, now it's just coming from up and down movement instead. An earlier comment of yours in this thread just seem to mention that repetitive forward and backward movement of the head seemed to cause cumulative trauma and so this worries me since I believe it then poses a greater risk of injury than that of turning the head side to side. So the weird sensation you get for example from nodding your head fast is harmless? If it's even normal to feel what I'm talking about? Can it be the body's sensory defense system warning me to slow down before it actually causes any damage or something? Even when I'm nodding, all it takes is doing it a bit fast with followed by a sudden stop and then for a very short duration of time, I can feel some sort of internal pressure, hopefully just because it's provoking blood circulation. I also just kinda wanna know if you most likely would pass out from shaking your head before trauma occurs? Or would your neck get severely damaged? To summarize, I'm hoping that the answer is the body's natural response activating some cautionary mechanism and not actually movement of the brain I can feel either inside or outside my head, can't tell.

I don't think any of what you have said as the basis for your worries have any validity. "An earlier comment of yours in this thread just seem to mention that repetitive forward and backward movement of the head seemed to cause cumulative trauma and so this worries me since I believe it then poses a greater risk of injury than that of turning the head side to side. " I did not say that repetitive forward and backward movement can cause damage.

If you spend a few minutes vigorously shaking your head front to back, up and down or side to side, it could cause concussion like symptoms. But, I know you would never do that.

I bet the responses you are feeling have more to do with the inner ear.

Small momentary changes in blood pressure to the head and face are common as the blood vessels respond to different head positions. This happens with everybody. It is not a response to protect against damage. It is a response to keep adequate blood flow so one does not pass out from lack of blood flow.

So, yes, that weird sensation is harmless.

You really need to find somebody to help you let go of these worries so you can get on with living your life.

Alright so you would basically have to do it non stop constantly for minutes. And even then, concussion like symptoms occurring doesn't necessarily mean an actual concussion has happened? Rather a severe disturbance of blood flow or inner ear?

Nobody said anything about a severe disturbance of blood flow. More likely a common but momentary change in blood flow.

Minimac, you're most definitely allowing your anxiety/obsession to take hold, and I'm confident that this worrying poses a far greater risk to your health than anything that you have done with your head as of late. Trust me; I've been trying to get over the very same mental obstacle for the past year, and I'm still not quite there yet.

For example, a part of me still thinks that I'm experiencing concussion symptoms as a result of a particularly "vigorous" activity from earlier this week... I don't quite know how to say it on this forum, but yeah. Sure, it caused my head to jerk around a bit, and—even despite the fact that I've had far too many alcohol-related concussions within a very short timespan (recently, too)—I have to keep telling myself that I'm fine.

As of this past pseudo-incident, hitting the books intensely for a few hours will cause me to feel a pressure sensation in my head, but I'm able to make it disappear instantly by simply relaxing my cranio-facial muscles. Now and then I'll notice what seems to be tinnitus—no, now and then I'll resolutely convince myself that I'm experiencing this hallmark symptom of concussion, but then I tell myself that I've always heard this noise, that even my healthy brain had regularly perceived this kind of sound.

You'll be fine. People keep on learnin', world keeps on turnin'. You're ten years post-concussion, and you've only had one...I remember hitting my head pretty hard only 10 or so months after my initial concussion as a kid, and I was fine. In fact, before my more recent "set" of alcohol-related concussions, I busted up my teeth (and my face) on some ice without cognitive deficit.

Persistence is great in the pursuit of knowledge, and I'd encourage you to go explore the scientific literature ad nauseam (if that's your thing), but obsession and incessant self-projection will eat you alive.

Cheers!