Pain flare today......ugh!!!!!!!
 

Yesterday I had more pain than usual...even with my Lyrica...then I woke up this morning with the cramping in my calves and then when I got up my legs and hands were very stiff feeling and I ache all over....gees it's going to be one of THOSE days! Can anyone tell me a better medication for the pain than Lyrica? :confused: (besides the fact that Lyrica is causing weight gain.....ugh!!:( )
My dr. has diagnosed me with Neuropathy Myopathy at the moment but has taken a bunch of blood work this past week. So hopefully he'll be able to narrow the diagnosis down more.
Does Neuropathy always get worse over time?? Thanks! Roxie

Hi Roxie:

I read in one your other postings that your doctor recommended a weekly IV. What kind of IV?? I mean, what's the name of the medicine that is in the IV??

Thanks, Melody

P.S. You mention you are taking supplements. Is one of them Methylcobalimin B-12????

I take that every day I take 5000 in one pill under the tongue. Some days I add another 5000. It's so easy to take.
If I have no stress (and the weather cooperates), I have no neuropathy. So the Methyl b-12 is doing it's thing.

HI Melody!
The IV is Immune globulin (intravenous) (IGIV) It's used to strengthen muscles and nerves.......but you have to take it weekly (an hr long IV session) for the rest of your life! So it's not a fix.....just a bandaid that makes you feel better. It's a combination of 40+ people's blood to make this serum and the article I read on Google said it's screened for diseases and virus's but there's no guarantee that you won't catch something from it.....tho the odds are very low. With all the problems I already have I don't think I want to take this chance of catching something that someone else had! My Rheumatologist is looking into the IV situation tho.
No, I don't take Methylcobalimin B-12 (but will look into that!) I take the Twinlab formula of vegetarian B-12 Dots Sublingually. They are only 500mg. My B-12 isn't low (from the blood tests that's been taken recently). I take this brand only because my Gastro dr. who did my Gastric Bypass recommened it. I'm not sure I can take the Methyl type because I have Interstatial Cystitis......it might throw my bladder into a flare.:( But it might be worth trying to see if it would or not.....at this point I'll try about anything!
I'm SO depressed since I've had Neuropathy and all the testing I've had to do....I just wish I could get the pain under control.....or feel like I'm getting a handle on it! Roxie

Ah, you are talking about IVIG. My husband Alan does this twice a month. It's called a double load. Two consecutive days, a month. The first time you have to go into the hospital (usually) for 5 days (so they can monitor and see how you tolerate the procedure), it has all kinds of risks and some can't tolerate it. Alan tolerated it very well.

Until his last one when the bag had a leak (but that's a whole other story). He came down with a temperature the next day of 101.5. I had to monitor him very closely. Some people get really bad headaches. And you say the IVIG is one hour. My husband's prescription is for 4 hours and when the last nurse did it in 3, that's when he got sick the next day. We will never know if the bag was contaminated or what!!!

But research this hard and long before you let anyone give you a one hour infusion. I am not that well informed on IVIG and believe me, other's will jump in and educate you.

I don't know why the doctor told you it's once a week. Maybe some people do this for once a week. But many others do it once a month.


I'm extremely interested why some docs tell you once a week and others do not!!!

And as far as the 500 of he B-12. That's nothing. It's all about the malabsorbtion of it. Doctors are not educated about B-12, but the guys and gals on these forums know what they are talking about. They'll respond to this thread and give you all sorts of good info.
And the numbers for B12 deficiency, well, there is too much of a gap between what's normal and what's not. Aim for a 4 digit number. My number (the first time I got a reading) was 944. I'm aiming for much higher. See, Methyl B-12 heals nerves. Takes some time to do this but it does heal.

If you ask your doctor about B-12 methyl, believe me, he just might pooh-pooh it. Or they might say "can't hurt".

Listen to the people on these boards. They know what they are talking about.

Melody

P.S. Now let's talk about Interstitial Cystitis. How did you get the diagnosis because believe me, what I went through with my bladder (over 10 years ago), well, I wouldnt' relive those days for all the money in the world. I walked around with the pressure down there and I went nuts. Had every test in the book from a cystoscope, to a trans vaginal sonogram. They would always find nothing. I was under a great deal of stress at the time (due to my son's behavior), and now I know that it was all bladder spasms.

But I had gone to urologist, after urologist and one time I asked one of them "how do you know I DO NOT have Interstitial Cystitis", (see I read all about this on the internet and I had all the symptoms), and at the time, the only test to absolutely know if you have this condition is they pump your bladder full of water until they can see the tiny pinpricks of blood on the walls of your bladder. I asked the urologist, "are they going to do that to me?" and he said "are you nuts, we don't do that to women any more".

So have they developed a newer, more diagnostic tool for this condition?

thankfully, in my case, one day (7 years or so ago), I was in the shower and the hot water was running down my body and all the spasming stopped. I wasn't on anything. It just stopped.

I will never forget all those years of bladder torture if I live to be 100 years old.

Melody

B12
 

Roxie,
I don't know that I'm familiar with Myopathy Neuropathy. Is that one disease or two different diseases?

What was your last B12 test number?

Billye

Roxy, welcome!
 

IVIG? I couldn't live without it! I've an auto-immune mainly sensory CIDP. But the chemistry action/reaction of our bodies to ourselves is very similar.

Check out this part of this site...
http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromuscular/maltbrain.html

For each person, how one is treated, either thru steroids, IVIG or plasmapherisis...it's up to the doc in charge and his philosophy and the patient's stage of neuro/myopathy and any other complicating factors.

Some folks with CIDP and MMN I know of receive short infusions as have you of 1 hour weekly. Others anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months or more...or as needed.

The magazine called IG Living is a good resource about all the conditions IVIG is used for, and also info on how it's made. Should you haev trouble getting it, they can help too! Wonderful concept, a joint project of most IG manufacturers and home infusion providers. http://www.igliving.com/

Yes, this all does come and go! I wish like you it would GO AWAY more.

Hope this helps! - j

Someone else will probably come along with a technical explanation. In the meantime, proper nerve function is necessary for normal muscle function. When nerves are damaged in such a way to make muscles malfunction or cease to function that could be called myopathic neuropathy, I suppose.

Probably the most important thing is to make sure it isn't the central nervous system (CNS) affecting muscles. Sometimes a treatable cause of CNS damage is allowed to continue because it has not been properly diagnosed.

One of the easily treatable causes that is frequently undiagnosed or diagnosed late, is B12 deficiency (usually due to malabsorption).

Please do read my non-commercial site. It will provide you with important basics that most doctors do not know because many medical reference editors have not been doing their jobs on this issue for decades. I was damaged badly, and unnecessarily, becuase of this.

rose

HI Melody,
My B-12 level was 786 the last time I had it checked, last month. Quest Lab uses 200-1100 pg/mL as the reference range. So I thought I was ok. Guess maybe it's not ok. I'll check into the Mythol b-12.
About the IC problem.......You sound like me! I went thru years of hell with severe bladder pain with no real pain meds or bladder meds. When I moved from Katy TX to Houston, TX I changed Urologists. I found a specialist in IC and he's fantastic! He said they don't use those old tests they used to use for IC.....now if it 'looks' like IC they treat as such. I didn't have the little purple spots in my bladder when it was tested but have every other symptom in the book. Now I'm on Elmron and Elavil and use the Oxytrol patch and I'm doing really well with IC. I still have to watch what I eat but I do anyway because of my gastric bypass. I also take Freeze dried AloeVera and that works like Elmiron to coat the bladder lining.
I know many dr.s have no idea how to treat IC.....it's sad this day and age! I belong to the ICN website and they have lots of great info and great people on there to chat with. I really enjoy it.
I hope you stay in remission from IC. I've heard that there's lots of people who stay in remission, that would be SO nice!
What state do you live in? Roxie

I just posted something on nerve and joint function on the laptop post...

Muscles need stimulation from nerves to function, if they don't get it they atrophy.

On the IVIG, it is actually made from about 1,000 donors per bag, however it is chemically washed, and they get out 'most' stuff that we know of, even Prions. It is probably the safest of blood products. If your problem is autoimmune, it is a good option.

People think steroids build up muscles...not the kind of steroids that you get for autoimmune disease...they can cause myopathy.

IVIG does not actually build up muscles. It is an immunmodulator. It is used to build up immune systems in immunocompromised patients, and to suppress the immune system in autoimmune disease....must be smart stuff.

I had a course of it for 6 months, but it did not help my problem at least they didn't think it did. It is usually reserved for autoimmune conditions due to cost of $3000 or so per bag. If something autoimmune pops up in the future...it would be my choice over steroids...did awful on those.

I started Lyrica two weeks ago and have been on a tiny dose, and have felt totally brain dead. Not for me....plus I gained about 5 pounds...no wonder, I just laid around.....feeling gloomy...and I had nightmares to beat the band!

It is probably a good drug for many people. I couldn't handle Cymbalta either, not without a portapotty attached....oh, and I had complete, utter insomnia.

Discuss your pain frankly with your doctor and tell him what does and doesn't work...I have found nothing that works fully...mostly just stuff to take the edge off. I have noticed when I get calf pain, sometimes, not always a magnesium tablet helps...but check with your doc.

HI Cyclelops!
Thanks for all the info.
I can't take steriods so they aren't even an option for me. I have Barrett's Esophagus and steriods cause major pain with that.
My dr. is trying to narrow down exactly what my problem is....I hope to get tests results next week.
I've had major pain in arms and legs yesterday and today...out of the blue. They were doing a little better....but now I'm in pain. I'm taking the Lyrica but it's barely taking the edge off.
I'm going to call my dr. on Monday and see if I can get into see him and talk about pain meds. I work at a Jr. High and I was on sick leave the last 5 weeks of school. I hope to be better by the time school starts up again.
Take care......love hearing from you! Thanks for all your info.....Roxie

Roxy:'

I used to go on the Interstitial Cystitis websites (all those years ago), I use to read everything I could get my hands on.

I also always thought I had numerous bladder infections because the symtoms are so similar. I remember once, going to the emergency room, demanding that they give me a urine test, telling the doctor "I must have some really bad infection, because the pressure down there is driving me nuts". He took a urine sample, came back and said 'no, you don't have an infection". I thought he was nuts. I said 'what on earth do you mean, of course I have an infection,". and he explained. "everybody has bacteria in their urine, you do not have enough to make it an infection.

So the next week, I went to another urologist who did the trans vaginal thing, I mean, I must have had every test in the world for this bladder thing I had. I only got relief when I went to bed. As soon as I got up, Bam, there it was again. Nearly drove me out of my mind!!! They gave me tylenol with codeine but it did nothing because I didn't have pain, I had the pressure (which to me, is just as annoying as the pain).

I would always think it was an infection because, after all, I'm a diabetic, and diabetics get bladder infections, right??? well, not this tootsie.

Oh yeah, once in a great while (I think two times), I actually had a bladder infection. The second time, I didn't even know I had a bladder infection. I had no symptoms whatsoever. This was around 3 years ago, and during a regular physical, they took some urine, and the doctor said "oh, you have a bladder infection, here is some Cipro and he gave me the pills. I would have never known it. Now this was years after the pressure down there went away. I also used to have muscle spasms in my chest. For years. They went away too.

So now, I can only believe, that these were bladder spasms. I distinctly remember the night it went away. That day, I went to my doctor and said "please, you must give me something, I'm going crazy with the pressure down there". He prescribed muscle relaxer. I got the prescription filled.

I took the bottle home, (I was going to take it before bedtime). Guess what happened??? I went in the hot shower and let the hot water just run over my body. The pressure went away and never came back.

Boy, what stress does to my body, my god!!!

Anyway, I 'm happy that at least you got some meds and they help you.

mel

P.S. Tell me again, why your doc says "it looks like IC". How do they tell the difference between IC and bladder spasms??? I would love to know!!!

Muscles can also fail to function (as a result of nerve malfunction) while not visibly atrophying. So many ways nerve damage can affect muscles and other systems.

Roxie, you say "last time." Does that mean that you had B12 tested before, and if so what was the result and have you taken B12 since then?

rose

HI Mel!
Good to hear from you!
I think the bladder spams is just part of the symptoms of IC......I had bad spasms for years.....it was awful. Then my husband (my present husband, Mike) saw a book about trigger point therapy, by Bonnie Prudden. I have several trigger points we went thru a ritual every night using a heat vibrator, Ice packs and then Biofreeze. After doing this for a cpl months......every night......my spasms finally subsided! I was thrilled. Now if I start having even a twinge we start over for a week. I have a great husband!
I'm SO glad your spasms ended like they did. Spasms are SO painful!
I don't get uti's much......but used to always feel like I did! I've had more uti tests than you can shake a stick at! The Elmiron and Freeze dried Aloevera have really helped my IC.
I've had IC since I was 19 yrs. old. I first had symptoms after I gave birth to my son. I had a stressful marriage.....too young and imature! Live and learn! so I know what stress does to a body! lol
I'm taking Lyrica but I'm in real pain today....and tonight. I'm going to see my dr. on Monday and see what he can do to help with this pain. I'm tired of it! Take care! Roxie

HI Rose, Since I've had Gastric Bypass surgery I have to have all my levels checked every 6 months. The B-12 levels have always been with-in range that the lab sets. So I've never worried about my B-12. My Carnitine level was low last month when it was checked by my Rheumatologist so I started Carnitine supplements and Vit. D. Roxie

Roxie:

Listen to Rose. She knows what she's talking about re the B-12. Look at her website. It's all there.

And thank god, you're getting help with the IC. I will never forget those bladder spasms. UGH!!!

Mel

Hi there
 

And welcome back,i had ic since i was 19,they spasms are awful. Ha then
after many Drs. I got the same book it did help. But Rose is right on the
nose and here they go again. Boy my feet ,toes hands and shoulder oh
don't those wrists hurt. I couldn't take your med brroke me out with
hives. Do you get along with your Dr. call and tell him--her your hurting.
:hug: :hug: :hug: Good luck to you, Sue It's raining here in Columbia Mo
that usually doesn't help.

HI Shiney Sue!
I can relate...my hands, wrists, fingers, legs, hips.......you name it......hurt today! It's awful! I just took my night time dose of Lyrica and hope it, with my Elavil helps keep me asleep tonight.....other wise it's going to be a very long night!
I've been in Mo. My ex husband and his family lived in Springfield, Mo. for quite a few years when his dad was going to the BBC there. I've been to Springfield and Kansas City, Mo. a cpl times...it was summer and man was it ever hot there! LOL I lived in Nebraska back then. Now I live in Houston, TX and know all about hot weather! LOL have a good evening! Roxie

Hi Roxie, I found a lot of relief with Tramadol slow release, i think the normal limit is 200 mg x 2 per day [ every 12 hours ].
Also at one time i was 6 Celebrex a day, it was 2 tabs after each meal, that also helped too, might not be Celebrex but one of the others anti inflamatory may help.

HI Brian! Thanks for the thumbs up about Tramadol. I'm going to talk to my dr. tomorrow becaues I can't take this pain in my arms and legs any longer! Where is your pain?? Mine is shoulders, arms, hands, legs and some times feet. I'm really tired of this pain.....it wears me down. Roxie

Roxie,

Have you stopped taking B12 at least a few days before test samples were drawn?

rose

HI Rose, No I didn't stop taking the B-12 before the tests.....should I have?? Roxie

Yes. The fact that you did not stop a few days before the test sample was drawn means that the test result was especially skewed. The test measured B12 that never made it to storage or use, along with that which might have.

Anyway, taking 500 mcg every other day, your result should be much much higher unless you malabsorb severely.

In my opinion, 500 mcg is a nonsensical dose; they shouldn't even make that dose. It is just enough to MAYBE keep someone who malabsorbs severely treading water, not enough to build stores in most of those people, and way more than a person who doesn't malabsorb would need. People who suspect they may malabsorb should take at least 1000 mcg at a time.

You need B12, and I hope you will take at least 1000 mcg per day, at least for a long while, and then if you want to cut back go ahead, but keep the doses at at least 1000 mcg per day.

rose

I would think--
 

--that the fact you've had gastric bypass surgery puts you at immediate risk for nutrient malabsorption--particularly B12.

Even if you had no symptoms at all, it would be advisable to take 1000-2000mcg/day of methylcobalamin from that moment on out; it's inexpensive and a good insurance policy.

Hi Roxie, I haven't any pain now, only get a slight burn in my feet every now and again, i was lucky, the cause was found early and its repaired lots.

HI Rose! Thank you for the info and I will definenity increase my dose starting tonight! I had no idea that I was taking a low dose since I was going by the requirements of the surgeon who did my gastric bypass. I am so tired all the time and SO achy I sure hope it helps me! Thank you again.......any other suggestions are welcome! Roxie

It's best to take on an empty stomach. (learned that on these forums). So what I do is first thing in the morning when I get up and after I have brushed my teeth, I pop one (5000 mcgs of the methyl B-12) under my tongue, and go about the business of waking up. By the time, I'm washed and breakfast is made, it's all dissolved and now I can eat my breakfast.

I also don't take the B-complex at the same time. I read that you should take the B-complex at a different time than you take the B-12, so that's what I'm doing. See how much I learned from these forums???

Works for me!!!!

mel

Glenn,
I have worried about malasorbation of nutrients all along but my surgeon kept telling me to stop worrying that I was fine. Well I guess I'm not fine....and now that I have nerve damage proves that. Roxie

HI Mel! Thank you for that headsup! I'm learning things too! Gosh I thought I WAS doing all the right things and here I've been doing all the wrong things! Well guess you live and learn!
I'm feeling like I did when I was learning about Barrett's Esophagus and then with IC......there's SO much to learn about! I truly feel like I'm going to hell in a handbasket these days! lol It's one health issue after another!....and I'm only 51! LOL

Roxie:

Well, you have a whole bunch of new friends here and you'll do just fine.

See what you learned so far?? Methyl B-12, take it on an empty stomach, don't take B-Complex at the same time.

As you read more and more posts, you'll learn lots of good stuff to help you cope.

I just learned about self-hypnosis (from an expert in that subject who posted on these forums), and I do that now. I mean, why not, right??

We do whatever we need to do to get through the day.

So be well

Mel

HI Mel!
Yes that's true, I've met a lot of people this weekend, and found lots of great info!
My husband gives his grandfather B-12 shots twice a month.....his Grandfather is 92. So my husband said he'd start giving me B-12 shots too.......see if that helps with the pain over time. (I'm cringing as I'm writing this because I HATE needles!)
We are also looking into massage therapy. I'm already going to a Chiropractor for neck pain that I've been having, and he's really helping with that pain. I was having severe headaches and I thought they were sinus headaches and come to find out my top 2 vertebre are compressing because of my Dengerative Disk Disorder....like I need another problem! lol
So tell me about tihs self hypnosis and how it's helping you? I've always thought I wouldn't be a good candidate for hypnosis, tho my husband thinks I should try it. We're also checking into whether or not my insurance would cover acupunture or not. I had acupunture 4 yrs ago for an arm injury I received at work and it helped with the pain I was having.
Did I tell you I have a Carnitine deficency? I'm taking supplements for that but am waiting for my order to arrive of those pills and haven't been able to take any for a week (some goof up from the place we bought them from) :( So I'm wondering if that's contributing to my pain right now. Do you know of anyone who has had a Carnitine deficency? I swear if it's not one thing it's another!! lol Have a great day Mel! Roxie

Oral B12 vs shots
 

If you take at least 1000 mcg per day of methylcobalamin it is better than the shots regimen. You would have to be an extremely rare (if the chance exists at all) case to need the shots.

If you want to get the most out of your B12, take it with nothing else.

rose

Roxie.

Go to the thread that's titled Stress and PN. Look for all the posts by Rick. As you look at them, find the post that shows you how to imagine yourself in snow, putting your feet in snow, looking round, noticing the environment. He really goes into detail.

I've been doing that.

He also explains all about hynosis.

Let me know how you do!!!



Mel

HI Rose! Ok I'm taking my B-12 500mcg by itself twice a day and will increase the dose as my bladder allows. With having Interstatial Cystitis it's so difficult to take meds and supplements without being in major bladder pain. Roxie

Good Morning Mel!
I read Rick's posts.......very interesting! I wonder what senerio he would want me to visual since I don't have burning feet but aching arms and legs?
I'm going to try to get my insurance to pay for a neuromuscular massage therapist for me. I found one who sounds like maybe she'd be able to help with some of the pain I'm having. The Lyrica isn't helping as much as I'd like and I hate the side effects! I have swollen ankles and hands and weight gain I don't want!
I started taking the B-12 once in the morning and once at night to start with......and will increase as my bladder permits. I sure hope it helps over time! Having IC is such a pain also. I have such a hard time taking most pain meds and lots of vitamins and supplements. I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard spot trying to take meds! GEEZ!
Hope you are having a good pain day. I'm not too bad now that I've been up for an hr. I woke up in leg pain this morning though :( Take care....Roxie

My heart goes out to you. Between neuropathy and the IC thing, I think I would go out of my mind. I remember those bladder spasms and I had them for YEARS!! Not too much fun, I remember this vividly.

So just try and visualize being in a sunny beach in Hawaii, with the nice sand between your toes, It's not too hot, not too breezy, you are laying on the beach with a nice Marguerita in your hands. Now I don't drink, but if I did drink, it would be a nice Marguerita. I tasted it once. Thank god I don't drink!!! It was that good.

So just imagine yourself on that beach, you look around and the ocean is green and lovely. I actually was in Puerto Rico when I was 18 and the beach was heavenly and the water was an absolute green. I never forgot that image.

When I was on the beach, a guy came up to me and said Hi!!!! Because I was overweight, and had no self-esteem, I looked around the beach and there was no one else even near me. I said to him "Are you talking to me??" See what low self-esteem does to you!!!. He laughed and said "sure, and sat down next to me". Believe me, I had nice time that day. Green beautiful water, and nice sandy beach.

so just imagine.

Melody

HI Mel, I love the beach! We go to Galveston and sit out on the jetties about every other month. It's great for stress. It feels SO good to get away!
I talked to my therapist today about hypnosis and she told me she does hypnosis on people so on our next session she's going to try it on me! I'm excited about trying it.
I started going to a therapist 2 months ago because I felt like I was going crazy from all the pain I was in and trying to keep up with all the medication and tests I had to do before we finally got to the Nerve/Muscle biopsy diagnosis of Neuropathy. At least now with the diagnosis I feel vidicated that I'm not crazy! When I kept doing tests that kept coming back OK I started wondering if I was in pain after all if nothing was wrong with me! It's crazy how your brain works on things like that!
I have a great Rheumatologist and a great husband who's been SO supportive through all my illnesses and sat with me thru all the nasty tests. Now if I can just get this nerve problems under control! Roxie

Tests, some diagnosis and NO you...
 

are not one WHIT crazy? IT is a real 'something'!

Doesn't that help ever soo much? Doesn't change much, other than the fact you really have 'something'... Next steps are what to do - best to do - and, how to do - something about it all.

Further steps, wait for the results, read up on stuff, and ask questions.. We ALL have been somewhere that will be useful to you.

:hug: - j

Crazy
 

Only about the beach the ocean and your nice husband,good
for you roxie. If that med bothers you call your Dr. no good if
it adds to discomfort to your pain. Yep i know it get's hot in Texas
to,boy howdy. Take care. :D Sue

Talk about self-hypnosis, I need to do that big time tonight!!!!

I walked into the bathroom (very slowly, because last week there was that big disgusting waterbug) and every time I walk in, I slowly pull back the shower curtain and take a tiny peek into the bathtub. I do this every night before I take a shower.

Well, lo and behold, I walk into the bathroom, peek behind the shower curtain and there's this tremendous brown thing right on top of the bathtub drain. Now someone please tell me how a waterbug fits through a drain??. It had to come via this way because I plugged up every hole in the bathroom. I put contact paper over the radiator. I sprayed inside the cabinet under the sink. I keep the cabinets closed. I don't ever go there because I don't store anything there. I checked just in case and it was clean.

So I'm thinking, it had to come out of the bathtub drain, because I also put a strainer mesh thing in the sink. And this thing was laying right on top of the bathtub drain!!! So naturally Melody starts screaming, I run into the living room where Alan is resting comfortably, I grab him and order him to 'GO AND KILL THAT THING IN THE BATHTUB".

Alan goes into combat mode and grabs the can and opens the shower curtain and he goes 'oh my". and gets him.

Then he told me it was safe to go in. He cleaned up every thing.

Now I'm going to throw up!!!!

UGH!!!

lol mel

And I do apologize for going off topic.

OMG Mel!
I thought we had big brown ugly bugs here in Houston! LOL I used to do that same routine you mentioned...we'd have those nasty Wood Roaches in our shower of our other house! They are the most disgusting things and they can fly!!!
One morning I opened my closet and one of those dreadful creatures flew right at me! I screamed like crazy and ran for my exhusband to come and kill it! He had to chase it around the room a few times before he could smash it with his shoe! Now I am on roach patrol all the time! I buy those big roach traps and I have them Everywhere in the house and I spray. We have decreased them drastically this summer so far. It's when it gets very dry outside that they get really bad and start looking for water.....toilet water! lol It's amazing how those things can squeeze in the smallest hole to get in the house.