Leaning head up against wall
 

Sorry it's that time of the month again where my questions are filling up the front page, but this one just caught my mind. I think each and every one of us have leaned up against a wall either standing/sitting waiting or whatever reason we do it for. Anyways, if we decide to relax our head by leaning the head up the wall, which I guess most of us do if having to sit for a long time, I was wondering if the small impact with your head on the wall can cause a sub concussive blow? Because sometimes you can hear people making a bump sound, I even had it happen to myself today, so that's why I'm asking. I get all dizzy if I do it too roughly, so this worries me, but then again, time and time again has proven a lot of things that doesn't mean anything end up making me dizzy, no matter how much I try to ignore the fear. I guess it's my subconsciousness keeping my anxiety going or something. Anyways, my scenario was I was watching a movie and needed something to lean on, which ended up being the wall. So my head came in contact with the wall doing that bump sound and a shaking of the skull. I guess my head bumped into the wall with a 2-4 cm distance.

It might be a silly question since I see it happen to people occasionally without complains, but I've been wondering about this, if it has a sub concussive potential or something?

No, this was not a subconcussive impact. Besides, subconcussive impacts do not have any significance individually. It is when there are hundreds of them over a short period ( a month or such) that they start to be an issue. Your brain had plenty of ability to tolerate these situations.

How are you doing at getting some counseling to help you with your anxieties ?

I'm lucky to have a member in the family who is a psychologist so that's very beneficial, though as expected something very odd happened. I thought to myself: "as long as I prevent my head from getting hit, I will be able to keep the anxiety at bay" The thing I've been told and learned is that this is impossible since apparently it will find other ways as I experienced today (of course you can't prevent small impacts to your head forever). So as I had nothing to worry about yesterday, I was fully aware of that it was just a matter of time before my brain would start to complain about me not being worried as usual. So what happened was that I was walking up the stairs putting on a shirt and then suddenly I lost balance a bit and hit the wall. I'm fairly certain that I only hit the wall with my shoulders, but a few seconds later my fears made me doubt my own judgement. I had no symptoms of anything, but the scary thing was that my memory of the event got twisted around. Can anxiety create such delusions and screw with your memory? I am actually beginning to believe I hit my head on the wall but for some reason I simply didn't notice it.

I'm not sure how much you guys know about what anxiety can do, but if it can create delusions of events and make you doubt what really happened, I'd like to know!

I think you are right. Focusing on the possibility can convince you that it actually happened. It's a progression from Did I just hit my head? to I think I just hit my head. to I know I just hit my head.

Did your therapist teach you any replacement thoughts ?

Anxiety wouldn't typically cause delusions.

There's a difference between a delusional thought and a thought caused by anxious concern.

Your concerns do not mean you are delusional! :)

I keep recreating the scenario at the spot of the event to calm me down by reassuring myself that it would've been very unlikely for my head to hit. I still want a little help on this one though. What I'm meaning to ask is that if there is an impact to any body part (shoulders against wall), do our neck muscles automatically stiffen up so that our heads don't move a whole lot? If I did use my neck muscles it would've been pretty much impossible for my head to hit the wall since my shoulders are pretty wide.

I know that this is seeking reassurance and for some reason it's considered bad for fighting anxiety, but I really need to calm down asap so all responses are appreciated.

Minimac,

Since it has been 7 years since your only concussion, I highly doubt that you have any sensitivity to bumping your shoulder and the related jerking of the head. If your only symptoms is anxiety, then, your anxiety is the only issue. When I have a minor bump, sometimes I experience no symptoms at all.

Other times, I experience a visual disturbance, a metallic taste in my mouth, and a struggle focusing my thoughts for a few minutes. It is these symptoms that signify a concussion.

If there are no symptoms other than anxiety related symptoms, it is NOT a concussion. But, I doubt any of us can convince you of this. You need to convince yourself.

You sound as if you're stuck in a loop.

You mentioned OCD in your first post for some reason and I'm wondering if you've been diagnosed with OCD prior to head injury. If your head injury was 7 years ago, I wonder if you've been in this loop for 7 years and have just found an outlet here to vent it or have these worries and concerns just started?

You also mentioned that you have a family member who is a Psychologist. What does that mean exactly? Do you see a professional counsellor or doctor who is not a family member at all?

Have you ever taken or are you taking medications right now? If you're taking medications for an anxiety disorder such as OCD then maybe it's time for a reevaluation of your treatment/s.

Your posts read as if you're stuck. You are recreating scenarios in your head and in reality to test situations and so your obsessive thinking is no longer just obsessive thinking, it's now playing out into compulsions.

Obsessions are thoughts.
Compulsions are actions

Obsessive thoughts grow and grow until there is some temporary relief by acting out the compulsion.

(having said that some people just have obsessive thinking but don't have the compulsive part but your posts suggest you're acting out scenarios)

I see anxiety mentioned in almost every post on this forum. It disturbs me. Anxiety can be a very complicated and life changing condition and we can't just say to ourselves oh well we got a concussion and that's why I'm anxious. Sure anxiety can be part and parcel of the PCS, however what you're describing in all of your posts is something that seriously needs addressing.

You're 16 aren't you or is that someone else?

I'm still working towards dealing with my anxieties in a more independent way, but I feel as if I'm not quite there yet. I can inform it's getting better with reminding myself and distinguishing between rational and irrational thoughts, but it can still get the best of me sometimes, as it seemed to have gotten yesterday.

What I'm meaning to ask, is if it's the CSF that can sustain 60 G's, or the brain itself when/if the CSF fails? If the CSF fails to cushion all of the force is there still a remaining 60 G's of force which the brain can tolerate without any cushioning protection? And also, does the skull and skin absorb force before it reaches the CSF?

The reason for these question is because my anxiety lead me to believe I bumped my head into ceiling/wall at low speed, but still. So, yes, as has happened earlier, without successful reminding of the increased anxiety from reassurance, I had to check if the speed and distance could be a sufficient risk of concussion. And yes, it's irrational to believe you can check something like that, but I just wanted to hear if you bump into the wall at 5 cm distance and with speed equivalent of letting yourself fall be able to cause concussive force? Can't remember if it's the neck or the jarring of the skull from impact that causes concussion, but I can tell that the surrounding area of impact wasn't sore and it didn't particularly hurt. It might sound self-inflicted, and I wouldn't be worried if it wasn't because of the fact that I bumped at a slightly greater speed into the wall than estimated.

It wasn't meant to give a bump sound, but I had to see what happened since I am constantly anxious of getting my head into contact with solid objects. With good conscience I can say that this time it's kind of like headbutting the wall at close distance, just enough to hear the skull bump - maybe more like leaning up the wall but letting yourself fall to hit it. I honestly don't know why I felt I had to redo it, just because I thought I hit it. I was pretty sure I could refrain from reassurance but obviously not quite yet apparently. And additionally, do these small bumps sound, feel and look more serious than they really?

It would be a huge relieve if things could be put in perspective with my other questions that's been covered in my other threads. I would like to, if possible, get an answer to which of the following three phenomenons poses the greatest risk of concussive force. Jerking/shaking the head versus bumping head into solid object vs bumping head into moving object (heading a ball etc.), and does it even matter which one of the three it happens to be when discussing such low distance and speed leading most likely to low G forces in general?

I might seem like a black hole demanding endless explanations and answers, but I get the feeling that I've narrowed down my basic fears and in already existing threads. That's why I'm planning only to place my future worries in these pre-existing threads of my own, so it won't seem as overwhelming.

Minimac,

You said, "What I'm meaning to ask, is if it's the CSF that can sustain 60 G's, or the brain itself when/if the CSF fails? If the CSF fails to cushion all of the force is there still a remaining 60 G's of force which the brain can tolerate without any cushioning protection? And also, does the skull and skin absorb force before it reaches the CSF? "

These questions can not be answered. There is not enough information. The key piece of information needed is the distortion of the skull. We would have to make a number of assumptions to do the calculations. If we use 1 mm of CSF as a cushioning distortion and another 1 mm of skin distortion and 1 mm of skull distortion and 1 mm of wall distortion ( total of 4 mm cushioning distortion), then a 5 cm drop at normal gravitational rates would cause .05/.004 G's or 12.5 G's. But, the 60 G's of force considered the threshold for the brain is measured at the surface of the skull, not at the brain. So, we need to leave the 1 mm of CSF out of the calculation, so .05/.003 is 16.6 G's.

I do not believe these calculations will help you with your anxieties. Every bump will be different. Every time your head contacts an object, you will need to assume a new set of factors.

You need to accept that life happens meaning minor bumps happen. The brain is tolerant of these minor bumps. You need to constantly remind yourself that "Bumps happen and the brain can tolerate them. " Trying to understand the science will not help nearly as much as changing the way you think.

Yeah I guess you're right, I mean it's almost every week something happens like this to me. So this implies for all the different kind of impacts with the skull? Solid and moving objects?

"So this implies for all the different kind of impacts with the skull? Solid and moving objects? " These questions are incomplete so they can not be answered.

To paraphrase what I said previously, No matter what the answers say to diffuse your anxiety, your anxious mind will continue to come up with new questions to support your anxieties. You will not defeat these anxieties with facts. Your mind will continue to find gaps in or misunderstandings of the facts to allow your anxieties to continue.

You have already lived with the normal risks of head bumps and survived with only one concussion. Most concussions are the result of people participating in risky activities. You are not participating in risky activities so your risk of concussion is normal and minimal. Accept that, please.

Does a helmet protect or hat protect the brain from acceleration/deceleration by proving an extra layer? Contrary to what normally is told, it does not. It would make sense in a way that the helmet would only protect the skull and hereby preventing force applied to the skull, but it still shouldn't stop the brain from moving by the sudden abrupt stop, should it? So in a way, having a helmet on and hitting it on the wall won't even protect the brain inside? If it's, as people state, almost exactly the same conditions for brain injury by hitting the head without a helmet, why the hell do we wear them? To protect the skull from fracturing? Is that the only thing it protects from, because it surely as hell feels like the brain is harder to injure with head gear protection on.

Where did you get the idea that a helmet does not make a difference ?

Helmets make a huge difference. Drop an object on a semi-hard surface from 8 inches with an 1/8 inch deflection and the G force is 64. If that deflection is 1/4 inch, the G force is only 32. If the deflection is 3/8 inch, the G force is 21. The internal padding in a helmet creates the deflection. The helmets that are made for football have various thicknesses of foam padding. The thicker the padding, the better the reduction in G forces against the skull.

When the players are followed, those who wear the helmets with the thicker padding suffer 30% fewer concussions than those who wear the standard helmets. This was started by ProCap, a second hard covering over a helmet with 1/2 inch of polyurethane foam between the cap and the standard football helmet.

Yeah that's what I thought, would be weird otherwise. Must've been rotational forces they were referring to.

When your hear that bump sounds, that is the result of deflection. If there was no deflection, there would be no sounds. Sounds is generated by the wall moving back and forth (vibrating) causing a sound wave in the air that is received in your ear as the sound of a bump. The amplitude (deflection distance over time ) of that back and forth movement translates into the loudness of the sound.

Mimimac, From the calculations I did for Katharsis, if you laid your head against the wall at 1/2 mph with 1 mm deflection, your head would experience .96 G's, the same as if you gently laid your head on a hard horizontal surface.

So, ladies, lighten up with your anxiety over these meaningless bumps.

I wouldn't do any more recreating or re-enactments...it could be a risky activity if you accidentally bump too hard or too many times.. :grouphug:

Haha, did the exact same thing with my hand. Took it to cover my head, then slammed it into the wall at a considerable speed, I can asure you, that nothing will happen from this, several times, got over that compulsion though. What's bothering me now is doing it without protection, though at lower speeds, I try to resist as long as I can but in the end my anxiety builds up so much that I absolutely have to reassure myself Again and Again. Gotten so bad I do it once a day. Have to stop it asap. I'm worred because I once did it hard enough to cause a Little pain on the outer surface for a Little moment, and that's primarily why I have to reenact it over and over, to prove myself that the small quick pain meant nothing. But I'm currently struggling with it.

Minimac,

You need to seek out serious help. There is no justification for what you are doing. You have been duping us with your questions. Instead of getting reassurance that a previous bump did not hurt your brain, it sounds like you have been seeking justification for continuing this dangerous behavior. I say it is dangerous because it demonstrates how much you need professional help. Not help from a family member who is a psychologist. Not help from someone online.

As often as you do these head bumps, you may be subjecting your brain to sub-concussive impacts at a frequency that can lead to long term neurological problems. Nobody can say either way. But, the risk means you need to stop and find help so you don't start up again. Once you stop, there are support groups that can help you maintain your abstinence. I will not post a reference here. If somebody is interested, PM me.