Diet Changes for PN?
 

Yikes! I purchased the book The Wahls Protocol which was recommended reading for people with PN, autoimmune illnesses, MS, etc.

OMG :eek:

I don't know. That diet looks so complicated. So extremely limiting. Also expensive.

My docs haven't said anything (yet) about my diet except to limit carbs.

I am contemplating the Atkins, eliminating carbs almost completely.

Has anyone here adjusted their diet and seen results?


I have added B12 supplement, soaking feet in Epsom salt, trying to be as active as I can (difficult with my other illness, myasthenia gravis), and cutting down on carbs.

Anyone here used/using the Wahls Protocol?

Or Paleo diet?

Any Insight? Results?

Thanks in advance for any input.

SoftTalker
aka
SoftWalker

I've been on a Paleo/Primal style diet for years. I basically don't eat grains, dairy or legumes. To be more specific, for me, this diet means I eat whole foods and I don't eat sugar. I only have an occasional non-gluten grain (rice), I eat lots of vegetables, and my carbohydrate amount depends on my level of activity. I was eating this way before I got sick, so I can't say how it's impacted my symptoms. I do notice if I eat slightly off my diet template, I don't feel so great. It also made me realize that I have sensitivities to artificial sweeteners.

There are 3 levels of the Wahls diet depending on what level of strict you are will to adhere to. All of us on this forum are looking for answers as to what is causing our medical problems. I think trying an elimination diet (Wahls, Paleo, No Sugar No Grains, GAPs etc) for a period of time certainly can't hurt. And it might help get a few more vegetables into your life - there are worse things!

I don't feel like any of these diets are necessarily more expensive, unless you are currently eating all processed foods out of a box. Where they do get expensive is when you start trying to buy more quality meat and vegetables. If someone can't afford this, then I feel that they shouldn't worry about it and it will not stand in the way of a healthy diet. There are always strategies to cut costs - hunting, fishing, growing a garden, buying organic for only the "dirty dozen", shopping at Aldi, Costco, Walmart, or Farmers Markets, stop eating at restaurants etc. There are also some good blogs out there about how to do Paleo on a budget.

The one good thing I would say about the Wahls diet is that it has been professionally analyzed for nutrient content. So if you are to do her strictest diet (Ketosis diet), you won't have to worry about being short on nutrients, which is more than I can say about some of the other Ketosis diets that have been put out there by medical institutions.

I have been eating vegan for 18 months in a few days. It is hard to know for sure how it has helped, but I have a few educated ideas. Bear in mind my neuropathy is diabetes related-

1. I dropped 1/4 of my weight, which has helped my bulky left knee, legs in general and my A1C is now 5.8. I am still having progression in my symptoms.

2. I move more, too. Though I have to change parking spots soon, closer tp work I had two miles of walking built into my day. I am trying to notice when to adjust before it is a more severe problem, but my legs can't handle the mandated pounding right now.

3. I had the shingles earlier this year and I am certain that it would have put me in the hospital had they struck when I was in my former condition. They did a number anyway- essentially resetting a lot of pt/exercise stamina I had developed.
Pushing the boulder back up the mountain, adjusted grade, rest spots planned for, baby steps.

I worked my first 40 hour week in who knows how long. I really feel that I am in a better place for my drastic change, though as I said it has not turned off the progression faucet yet. I hold out hope.
I say find one you feel is worth the commitment, give it time and see where it goes. This vegan experiment was planned for a month. I keep asking doctors if they feel I should change, they say as long as I get my protein via other sources ride it.

So I do.

Thanks for both of your replies.

Yes, I am cutting out everything (most) white; refined foods, bread, sugar, etc. Until now I have been eating these in moderation.

Trying to eat mostly low sugar fruits and vegetables and once in a while, lean meat, e.g., chicken, pork, and fish.

By more expensive I meant that the Wahls Protocol advocates local vegetables, meat and fish. This would be almost impossible for me, geographically and financially.

We have Sprouts where I live; this is where I purchase most of my fresh vegetables, fruit, etc.

I rarely eat processed food.

Admittedly, I do bake cookies from scratch occasionally, which are now history.

Again, I appreciate the feedback from this group, immensely!

Try baking with half cashew or almond flour/half unbleached?

It all depends on how you are, I guess. My Aunt who convinced me to try vegan on for size brought up cheat days- that is a sure derail for me. We had som whey incidents and such, but I just keep moving.

I am sure most people could benefit from some tweaking. If rewards of a cheat day work for you, go with it.My idea of cheating was some vegan Girl Scout cookies my dauggter was selling. Delicious, but the extra sugar let me know it was around. I won't say never again, but limiting excess sugar is key for me.

I have adjusted my diet to low carbs (20g - 60g per day), and the best I can say is that my symptoms haven't progressed. It's been about 7 months now.

IMO, since high blood sugar levels are an absolute known insult to nerves, anyone with neuropathy would be wise to cut back on carbs. I have intermittent hyperglycemia (high blood sugar), yet sail through normal diabetes screening. I'm not even close to pre-diabetes according to those blood results, yet my blood sugar rises to high and potentially nerve-damaging levels when I eat carbs. I hate to think how many other people like me are out there and have no clue. I was on a high "healthy" carb diet for a long time, and I'm sure drove myself to this state.

I looked at The Wahl's Protocol awhile back and just gulped. I'm just trying the low carb/high fat approach for now and see what happens.

Atkins Experience
 

Hello Softwalker, I too am in search for a diet that I can live with. I will only relate my Atkins experience. It tool about four days for me body to start burning fat for fuel and had run out of Glucose. I felt fine and was generally feeling energized. I would pig out at breakfast and eat eggs and a fistful of bacon and was still losing weight. It is a qualitative diet. Not quantitative. If you eat anything that turns to glucose your body will revert back to burning it. Long story short, I was tripped up by craving an apple, not your ordinary,every day, run of the mill, average craving, but get in the car and drive to wherever you have to and eat an apple. I'm not disciplined enough, Mayby if Rambo and GI Jane had a child? Good Luck, Ken in Texas.

I got over apple cravings really quickly when I did a blood sugar check after eating a medium-sized one. Major blood sugar spike.

Then I looked into them nutritionally which I had never done:

1 medium apple = 19 g sugar
1 tsp sugar = 4 g sugar
1 medium apple = just under 5 tsp of sugar

And when I looked at the sugar content of other fruit, it was equally depressing. I guess that's why it's called "nature's candy."

My big challenge will be with blueberry season coming.

1 C blueberries = 15 g sugar

I can still eat them, but in limited quantity, and it would be best to eat them after I've eaten a lot of fat and protein to slow down the sugar absorption.

Well, there goes my every other day apple.

But thank you. I knew they could be hard on my stomach if eaten first thing, but that sugar, wow.

Is that most apples or red delicious?

Most of the sugars in fruit are fructose.... these are metabolized slowly and therefore are considered "safer" for diabetics. They still have calories however, but should not move glucose readings quickly.

There are some other food considerations too....
The nightshade veggies contain solanine--which is an alkaloidal poison. It is being thought today that this is not eliminated by the body, and can become cumulative over time. They can cause burning and stinging in the skin, long after consuming them.

Nightshades are tomatoes (also a histamine releaser), potatoes, peppers (all of them), eggplant, and some spices like paprika.
Never eat a green potato... cutting off the green is not enough...the solanine can be in the white portion of a green potato.

Many people use hot sauces and peppers, for taste variety...and in fact these may be causing many paresthesias for some.

There is a difference in sugar content, but I remember it not being substantial. I recall that Fujis were the worst, and Granny Smith the best. Unfortunately over the past century, most of the commercially available apples have been bred to be sweeter in keeping with our tastes. The old cultivars, if you're lucky enough to find one, are supposed to be the best. This guy in NC grows them. Would love to find someone local:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/ga...rden.html?_r=0

My friend who is a severe diabetic still eats apples, but only two or three slices at a time. She refrigerates the rest in a sealed container to eat later. All I know is that eating an apple on an empty stomach took my blood sugar into the high 140s. My goal is to keep it under 120 at all times.

The one trick that is used to prevent spikes, and it does work for me, is to drink organic apple cider vinegar before you eat carbs. And yes, it tastes as awful as it sounds, but I do it when I know carbs will be unavoidable.

well, I look to eliminate spikers. I think I really enjoyed my lemon juice soaked apples. I'll drop em and monitor. The only dsily/every other day sugar "safe" from the block are my bananas.

That is an incredibly low carbohydrate intake. How do you pull it off? I'm trying to lower my carbs also. Hemoglobin A1c was 5.4 - which is too high. Trending towards the prediabetic. I already to have neuropathy. What kinds of things do you eat? Give me some ideas. My gut doesn't like it when I eat too many vegetables - very gassy. Seems hard to find the right adjustment.

In a nutshell....eggs, meat, fat (not trans), non-starchy veggies, cheese and nuts.

No....sugar, starchy veggies, fruit, or grains of any kind or in any form

I have no problems with veggies, so I eat a lot of them....at least six different kinds throughout the day, usually more.

As long as you keep your fat intake up, you won't be hungry.

Here's a link to a transcribed version of Dr. Eric Westman's famous "Page 4."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/200781570/...an-Pg-4#scribd

YouTube video of his talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLf4bzAyOM (38 minutes


Another TED talk by a doctor that just came out on this fat/carb subject with regard to diabetes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1vvigy5tQ (18 minutes)



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So far I have not noticed much of a change. I mainly eat rice/sweet potatoes, lots of veggies/fruit and chicken. Anti-inflammatory diets I assume are geared more towards people with IBS or other digestive disorders. Other than being good for health overall, I don't see the connection to PN.

The diet we've been talking about here is one for lowering your blood glucose levels in case diabetes or pre-diabetes are responsible for the PN. They're one of the major causes and are sometimes not caught by basic screening tests.

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/neuropathies/

About 60 to 70 percent of people with diabetes have some form of neuropathy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3086960/

"Diabetes and prediabetes (including both impaired glucose tolerance and impaired fasting glucose) frequently are associated with pure small fiber neuropathy;"

Autoimmune conditions.

Yes I forgot about glucose being a big factor. If blood glucose levels are ok, is it still necessary to do a glucose tolerance test?

A lot of the info I've seen lately indicates that impaired glucose tolerance can be seen in people that don't show as having a problem on the typical fasting glucose or a1c tests. And the evidence seems to be mounting that impaired glucose tolerance results in PN for a significant percentage of people.

So many of us have just become used to eating processed foods on a daily basis because its easy and cheap. Who knows what all the artificial preservatives and ingredients are doing to us after years of consuming them? Going back to more natural foods might not be a miracle cure, but it sure can't hurt.........

Yeah maybe i'll get tested for that too. I really don't eat much sugar though, but do eat lots of white carbs.

Hi tunaboy
Did you watch the TED video that janieg listed above? (the 3rd link) - good info on carbs, glucose and the diabetes connection.

Your rice and sweet potatoes do really bad things to me blood sugar wise, and my screening numbers are normal. If you're idiopathic, just be careful.

In addition to or in lieu of the Oral Glucose Tolerance Test, you can also get an inexpensive meter at Walgreens or wherever and start checking your postprandial (post meal) blood sugar yourself. You'll learn pretty quickly if you have abnormal spikes and stay elevated too long.

You can switch to brown rice.... it is a better and lower glycemic form for those who might have pre-diabetes.

Swinging high to low with high glycemic carbs, is very triggering for some people who are on the path to type II diabetes.

Diabetes remains one of the most common triggers for PN.

I don't do it often anymore, but when I eat rice, I eat wild rice which isn't really rice at all I've recently learned. It has a lower glycemic index than brown rice and a little more protein. I avoid white rice like the plague now.

In case anyone is interested in a comparison:

Carbs per 1 C cooked:

White - 53
Brown - 46
Wild - 35

Glycemic Load

White - 30
Brown - 22
Wild - 16


From: http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-...000000000.html

Definition of Glycemic Load: http://nutritiondata.self.com/help/e...-glycemic-load



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I hate brown rice! I know that eating white rice with veggies and meat together will decrease the insulin spike somewhat.

I switched to brown rice only when my kids were little, 25 years ago. No one seemed to notice, even my husband who is notoriously picky. I now use a Lundberg blend of brown and wild rices most of the time. Amazon has an amazing selection of specialty rices and subscribe and save makes them affordable.

Basmati white rice actually has a lower glycemic index and tastes way better than brown

I love the info in part one, Tunaboy. Certainly you recognize part two is subjective though, right?

I tried the Target microwave wild rice as a forgot my lunch food pantry at work choice. The serving was large, probably too large to regularly consume. I like having choices other than my go to hummus and nuts.

I use a brown rice derived pasta by Tinkyada brand. A serving of this with my lean meats, lasts me all night with no hunger at all.
I try to stay gluten free as much as possible. I like it very much and think it is the best gluten free pasta out there.

http://www.tinkyada.com/
I think the spirals are the best.

With white rice or wheat pasta, I get hungry around 4am.

There's a free low carb recipe book on Amazon right now for anyone with a Kindle. I got it, but haven't looked at it. It has gotten good reviews, though.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...OSKLSPXTD3WHNW

I've also picked up a lot of good recipes on the web, especially Facebook's "Low Carb Zen" page.

I think you will find as you age (and start pushing 70 like I am), that you will need a bit more carbs. I don't think the liver can convert protein to glucose/glycogen, when we are old, compared to younger times.

I used to eat high protein, high good fat, all the time but I can't anymore. The brown rice pasta will hold me a LONG time.. it must digest slowly or something. So I usually have some for the night meal.
I eat cheese, lean meat, sometimes sausage, nuts and fish, during the day.

At night I'll have various veggies and some Tinkyada with my meat. Sometimes we get salads at Panera when we do a carry out.

I assume you feel low on energy?

Eating a piece of fruit is not the same as eating pure sugar. The fruit contains hundreds or possibly thousands of nutrients that help our bodies work better. Table sugar contains none of these. I would surely not give up blueberries because of the sugar. They are very high in antioxidants, as are most purple plant foods, and they don't even taste sweet. It would be very rare to eat a cup of blueberries, although in a smoothie it is quite easy. But the good far outweighs the bad.

As far as the original question, several years ago I started studying health and eliminated nearly all animal products, began eating many more fresh fruits and vegetables, eating less-refined carbs (such as whole wheat bread instead of white, brown rice instead of white), eliminating high-sugar drinks like soda, and exercising, eating lots of nuts. Some of my PN pains went away, but not all. Those that went away were sharp pains that I would get periodically in my fingers and toes. Still remaining are dull aching pains that I have in my feet, buttocks, and various other places where there is pressure (shoulders, ears, etc.). The pains that remain are progressing more slowly, but I must say they are progressing. I could do much better with the diet, as I have a sugar problem, could easily be called an addiction (dark chocolate, biscotti, peanut M&M's, etc.) The rest of my family does not share my interest in healthy eating and sometimes I do not resist eating their food.

In other posts, I have written much more about my situation and rational behind my diet.
Ron

Hey Ron,

The people at Diabetes UK echo your thoughts about eating fruits, here:

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to...ruit-diabetes/

The article also covers fruit juices (more of a danger) and lovely veg.

Dave.

Yes, sometimes dizzy, weak feeling (hard to climb stairs), even some muscle aching at times. When extreme I get nauseous and horrible hunger pangs.

So I do include some carbs now. Just carefully though.

I am following a FODMAPS type guide to avoid GI upsets and this is working. I have had just horrible GI events all my life... and this diet includes avoidance of gluten too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP

I am finding I can tolerate a little bit of fruit... The Rainier cherries (now called Northwest by Kroger's) are just my favorite fruit. 6 a day does not upset my GI....so that is what I am doing this seasonal time (6 a day and no other fruit). But a whole banana is too much (even the small ones). And citrus flares my arthritis. But all in all I cannot tolerate much fruit at all. Apples and pears are the worst! I will try grapes soon this way... but most would spoil if I only ate 6 a day! I think I can pinch off a small cluster at the store though.

Ok, thanks. I'll watch for it. I don't think I've ever read...do you actually have sugar issues, or do you just watch your carbs to help prevent more insult to your nerves?

I'm slowly introducing more carbs into my diet, but not nearly to the extent I was once eating them. Still "low," but will be eating to my meter. I had house guests last night and bought a lot of "normal" food I know they like. Cheerios is their mainstay breakfast. For the heck of it, I had a bowl (measured 1 cup serving) with 1% milk to see what would happen. My blood sugar spiked over 165. Was not expecting that it to go that high for some reason. I know the milk didn't help, and whole milk would have been better.

Quinoa tabbouleh wasn't as bad. Between its built in protein and fat and the fact that this dish is made with olive oil, the spike was around 140.

Now I'm left with a bunch of blueberries and strawberries and will be playing around with those to see what happens. The good news is real whipped cream is on the table with those. It's relatively low carb. Happy day. I'll be trying with and without to see how the fat affects it.

Posting this here for future reference:

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14045621.php

"Research conducted with human patients, mice, and pancreas beta cell cultures all point to a single threshold at which elevated blood sugars cause permanent damage to your body. What is that level?

140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/L) after meals"




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This is some really good nerdy info about fats and other topics. But remember, if you eat only whole plants foods (not saying I do), and maybe some wild-caught animal foods, you don't have to know any of these details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOsgprH5QrA
The truth about fats...Hormones, blood sugar and health.

Ron

I really enjoyed that video, and especially the message conveyed at the end. I'd never heard about the connection between fat intake and hormones.

I have found locally an organic brown basmati rice, brand may be Full Circle, that I like a lot with my beans. Basmati rice has more flavor than just plain white rice. If I recall, jasmine rice tastes pretty good too, but something in brown is a better choice, without the nutrients (including fats) in the outer layers removed.
Ron