Chapter 3 in my horrible ongoing saga
 

Hi Bryanna and all--

I'm on my phone so I need to be brief but I can give lots more info later.

As you know I had major dental issues this year. First #19 RCT which I had extracted with great pain and long healing time.

Then unexplained pain and facial numbness around apicoectomy tooth #11--cause still unknown. Numbness/tingling spread to nose and upper lip and even right side a bit so it might not even be related to #11 but it's the best idea I have.

Now in these past 2 weeks--pain on #7 (not a RCT, a virgin tooth!)
#7 started to become painful to heat. It lasted awhile but would go away. Then it stopped going away and started hurting all the time. No cold issue. As a matter of fact if I touched the tooth with ice I did not feel anything. So back I went to the holistic dentist. They saw nothing on the CBCT scan. He thought (even though both him and I know I don't want RCTs) that I should see an Endo for eval. Saw endo today. He did periapical xray. Said no infection but tooth almost completely calcified with a very very blunted root (all my front teeth have short roots from earky and aggressive braces.). He did cold test with endo ice. I felt cold on all my other teeth but nothing on #7. He had a syringe of hot water, sprayed it on #7. Sharp pain! But resolved back to baseline (which is still pretty painful.)

He recommended RCT based on the results of the testing plus the calcification. He said nerve is irritated to the point of dying.

At this point even though I know RCTs are not ideal, I can't keep pulling teeth. With 19 gone, 11 maybe going, I can't lose another front tooth. I'm only 35. I'm worried about becoming a "dental cripple."

I don't understand why my teeth are having all these unrelated issues in unrelated quadrants. I don't know why a Virgin tooth would just start dying.

My options are now: 1.). Do the RCT using ozone supplied by my holistic dentist (they offer this service that my dentist brings over the ozone to endodontist. They said they do this a lot because many people choose RCT over extraction. I understand why, I'm in that boat.)
2.). Leave the tooth and live with the pain, see if it heals by itself? Is that possible? Endo says no, dentist said rare but maybe. Endo said no rush to do RCT because not infected but I will have to live in pain until then. I made an appointment for RCT with ozone in 5 days. I can always reschedule or cancel....

I'm lost. Just lost. Any advice would be helpful.

I don't have the copy of the xray as they said they would send it to me but I imagine forgot. I can get it and post it on Monday. But if you had advice before then I would be SO grateful.

I leave town to fly across the country in 2 weeks to further complicate things and I stay for 2 weeks in NJ. I do not want to have complications when I am over there from the flight if I choose to wait. I'm scared. And I would greatly appreciate help.

I am very informed about RCTs I have read every link and book you suggest. But I feel like I have to take in my own circumstances to account too and make hard decisions. I don't want to have missing front teeth, especially multiple ones!!!

Also pain on 7 is quite bad. It eclipses the pain on 11. It's hard to live with it like I'm living with the pain on the other side. I wondered if it was referred but they tell me "pain can't cross the midline."

And to make matters worse, my dentist is on vacation starting today! But his assistant is still in the office. She's very nice. She would be bringing the ozone if I chose to do the RCT.

Hi nukuspot,

I am sorry you are having all of these dental problems. Obviously your immune system is dealing with more than it can handle and my guess is that things that were laying dormant are now no longer in the dormant stage. The reason I say that is because every dental problem that you have had in the last several months were with teeth that have had some degree of trauma, infection, or abnormality. Meaning something happened to them in the past and were asymptomatic for a long time.

The orthodontia that you had caused blunting of the roots of your 4 upper anterior teeth. That means that those teeth were permanently and unfavorably affected by the orthodontia. Teeth with blunted roots from ortho trauma frequently end up slowly dying over time and the large canal(s) becomes closed or partially closed due to calcification. There may or may not be symptoms of this occurrence as it is happening. However, calcified canals often show up on dental radiographs because the teeth look different compared to healthy teeth. I would be curious to see past and present single periapical radiographs of your teeth to see if the calcification is apparent on them. This panorex shows the root blunted and there is some indication of the calcification's going on but the film is too blurry to be sure. The periapical films show a 2 dimensional view of the anatomy of the teeth more closely than the panorex.

I am going to re post some of your thread and answer in bold type. Hopefully I will be able to clarify some things for you.

<<Then unexplained pain and facial numbness around apicoectomy tooth #11--cause still unknown. Numbness/tingling spread to nose and upper lip and even right side a bit so it might not even be related to #11 but it's the best idea I have.>>

THE SYMPTOMS IN THE AREA OF TOOTH #11 ARE NOT UNUSUAL FOR A ROOT CANALED TOOTH, ONE THAT WAS PERFORATED DURING THE RC AND THEN APICOED. THE RC, THE PERFORATION AND THE APICO ARE ALL INVASIVE AND TRAUMATIC TO THE TOOTH AND THE BONE. AS LONG AS THE TOOTH IS PRESENT THERE WILL BE A INFLAMMATION AND IRRITATION TO THE FACIAL NERVES THAT CORRELATE WITH THAT TOOTH. IT IS NOT A PHANTOM PAIN OR SOMETHING THAT OCCURRED FOR NO REASON. IT'S BEEN ONGOING FROM THE BEGINNING, JUST ASYMPTOMATIC UNTIL NOW.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, TOOTH #7 IS IN THE SAME BOAT AS #11. BOTH HAVE BEEN TRAUMATIZED BY THE FORCE OF ORTHODONTIA. BOTH HAVE CALCIFIED CANALS. TOOTH #11 WAS PERFORATED DURING THE RC BECAUSE CALCIFIED MEANS CLOSED, NOT OPEN. SO DURING THAT RC THE INSTRUMENT USED TO DEBRIDE "OPEN" CANALS, WAS PUSHED THROUGH THE TOOTH FURTHER INJURING IT WHICH ALSO MEANS THE DEBRIS ON THAT INSTRUMENT WAS PUSHED INTO THE BONE. FURTHER SURGERY, THE APICO, WAS DONE TO TRY TO PATCH THE PERFORATION CLOSED AND SEAL OFF THE TIP OF THE ROOT. ALL OF WHICH CREATES CHRONIC INFLAMMATION AND VARIOUS SPECIES OF BACTERIA TO GROW BECAUSE THE BONE THAT THIS DEAD TOOTH SITS IN IS ALIVE WITH COUNTLESS NERVES AND BLOOD VESSELS SURROUNDING IT. THE TOOTH IS NOT SEPARATE FROM THE BONE, THE NERVES THE VESSELS. IT IS INTIMATELY CONNECTED TO ALL OF THEM.

<<Now in these past 2 weeks--pain on #7 (not a RCT, a virgin tooth!)
#7 started to become painful to heat.>>

THIS IS A VIRGIN TOOTH ONLY BECAUSE IT DOES NOT HAVE A RESTORATION IN IT. HOWEVER, IT IS A TOOTH THAT HAD BEEN TRAUMATIZED DURING THE TIME YOU WORE BRACES TO THE POINT THAT THE ROOT BECAME BLUNTED AND THE CANAL CALCIFIED. SO IT'S NOT A VIRGIN TOOTH IN THE SENSE THAT IT WAS PERFECTLY HEALTHY AND ALL INTACT. HEAT SENSITIVITY INDICATES THAT THERE IS SOME VITALITY AND ALSO SOME INFLAMMATION TO NERVES INSIDE OF THE TOOTH. THERE COULD BE A SMALL PORTION OF THE LARGE CANAL THAT HAS NOT YET CALCIFIED AND/OR THE NERVES IN THE DENTIN TUBULES ARE STILL ALIVE. EITHER WAY, WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THIS TOOTH IS VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT TOOK PLACE WITH TOOTH #11.

<<Saw endo today. He did periapical xray. Said no infection but tooth almost completely calcified with a very very blunted root (all my front teeth have short roots from earky and aggressive braces.). He did cold test with endo ice. I felt cold on all my other teeth but nothing on #7. He had a syringe of hot water, sprayed it on #7. Sharp pain! But resolved back to baseline (which is still pretty painful.)>>

EXACTLY. THE CALCIFICATION WAS PICKED UP ON THE PERIAPICAL XRAY. THAT CALCIFICATION DID NOT HAPPEN OVER NIGHT. SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT PREVIOUS PERIAPICAL XRAYS SHOW OF THAT TOOTH AND THE OTHERS. KEEP IN MIND THAT THE BACTERIA INSIDE OF THE TOOTH OR INSIDE OF THOSE MICROSCOPIC DENTIN TUBULES WILL NOT SHOW ON DENTAL XRAYS UNTIL IT BECOMES LARGE ENOUGH TO BE PICKED UP BY THE RADIATION.

<<He recommended RCT based on the results of the testing plus the calcification. He said nerve is irritated to the point of dying>>

HE'S RIGHT ABOUT THE IRRITATION AND VITALITY. BUT HE SHOULD BE INFORMING YOU THAT YOU CANNOT ROOT CANAL A CALCIFIED CANAL AS THERE IS NO OPENING TO GET INTO THE CANAL. EVEN IF THERE IS SOME TINY PORTION OF THE CANAL STILL OPEN, BY NOW IT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE TO HIS INSTRUMENTS, THAT'S HOW TINY IT WOULD BE. IN ADDITION, THE DENTIN TUBULES WILL REMAINED UNTOUCHED BY THE RC PROCEDURE. SO THIS TOOTH WILL BE THE SAME AS TOOTH #11.

<<At this point even though I know RCTs are not ideal, I can't keep pulling teeth. With 19 gone, 11 maybe going, I can't lose another front tooth. I'm only 35. I'm worried about becoming a "dental cripple.">>

YOU ARE FAR FROM A DENTAL CRIPPLE. THAT IS WHEN SOMEONE LOSES MOST OR ALL OF THEIR TEETH "DUE TO CHRONIC INFLAMMATION AND INFECTION" THAT HAS CAUSED THEM TO HAVE SEVERE BONE LOSS. YOU ARE NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THAT STAGE AND DO NOT HAVE TO END UP THERE.

I don't understand why my teeth are having all these unrelated issues in unrelated quadrants. I don't know why a Virgin tooth would just start dying.

<<THE VIRGIN TOOTH HAS BEEN DYING FOR A LONG TIME DUE TO THE ORTHO. NOT ALL PEOPLE WHO HAVE ORTHO WILL EXPERIENCE BLUNTING OF THE ROOT STRUCTURE OF THEIR TEETH. BUT THOSE THAT DO, TEND TO LOSE MORE "UNRESTORED" TEETH THAN ANYONE ELSE BECAUSE OF THE EXCESSIVE TRAUMA CAUSED BY THE MOVEMENT OF THE TEETH DURING ORTHO.

<<My options are now: 1.). Do the RCT using ozone supplied by my holistic dentist (they offer this service that my dentist brings over the ozone to endodontist. They said they do this a lot because many people choose RCT over extraction. I understand why, I'm in that boat.)>>

OZONE IS AWESOME AND VERY THERAPEUTIC IN MANY APPLICATIONS AS IT ENCOURAGES POSITIVE CELLS TO FORM IN AREAS WHERE THEY MAY BE LACKING. HOWEVER, IT CANNOT ALTER THE ANATOMY OF YOUR TOOTH IN ANY WAY. SO WHATEVER IS PRESENT IN THE DENTIN TUBULES WILL REMAIN THERE. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHATEVER YOU DO TO THIS TOOTH AND #11 IS TEMPORARY AND WILL NOT PREVENT FUTURE ISSUES TO OCCUR.

<<2.). Leave the tooth and live with the pain, see if it heals by itself? Is that possible? Endo says no, dentist said rare but maybe. Endo said no rush to do RCT because not infected but I will have to live in pain until then. I made an appointment for RCT with ozone in 5 days. I can always reschedule or cancel....>>

THE TOOTH HAS BEEN DYING FOR YEARS AND HAS NOT BECOME SYMPTOMATIC TIL NOW. iF YOU DO NOTHING, IT MAY CALCIFY FURTHER AND IN TIME SLOWLY EVULSE ITSELF FROM THE BONE. THIS MEANS IT MAY CONTINUE TO HURT OR NOT AND EVENTUALLY IT WOULD BECOME LOSE. IT MAY CALCIFY FURTHER AND BECOME INFECTED WHICH MEANS AN ABSCESS CAN DEVELOP. TO RC THE TOOTH MEANS TO CAUSE FURTHER TRAUMA RESULTING IN MORE INFLAMMATION, POSSIBLE PERFORATION AND APICO WITH NO FAVORABLE ALTERATION OF THE HEALTH OF THE TOOTH.

<<I leave town to fly across the country in 2 weeks to further complicate things and I stay for 2 weeks in NJ. I do not want to have complications when I am over there from the flight if I choose to wait. I'm scared. And I would greatly appreciate help.>>

THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL YOU WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN FROM THE PRESSURE OF FLYING. THE TIMING OF TOOTH PROBLEMS IS NEVER REALLY GOOD :/

<<I am very informed about RCTs I have read every link and book you suggest. But I feel like I have to take in my own circumstances to account too and make hard decisions. I don't want to have missing front teeth, especially multiple ones!!!>>

YOUR PERSONAL UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOU HAVE READ IS WHATEVER YOU INTERPRET IT TO BE. THE ANATOMY OF A TOOTH IS WHAT IT IS AND THERE IS NO GETTING AROUND THAT IRRELEVANT OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES. THE CHOICE YOU MAKE IS WHAT YOU FEEL IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST.

<<Also pain on 7 is quite bad. It eclipses the pain on 11. It's hard to live with it like I'm living with the pain on the other side. I wondered if it was referred but they tell me "pain can't cross the midline.">>

IT IS NOT REFERRED PAIN FROM #11. IT IS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM REBELLING JUST LIKE IT WOULD IF YOU HAD A WEAK AREA ELSEWHERE IN OR ON YOUR BODY. THE WEAK AREAS SEEM TO ACT UP WHEN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM IS TIRED FROM SOMETHING CHRONICALLY IRRITATING IT.

I feel terrible that you are in this situation. Only you can make an informed decision based on what you feel is in your best interest. I know what I would do if it were me, but no one can guide you to do what you feel is right for you.

Please keep us posted...
Bryanna

Hi Bryanna!

I have been checking neurotalk every few hours hoping you would write back. A big THANK YOU!

I don't have any other PAs of my front teeth to compare the calcification to, unfortunately. I have all the xrays my current holistic dentist has ever taken saved in an email folder, and they are all bitewings or PAs of back teeth. I have no PAs of front teeth. I saw a ADA dentist before him and I have some of her xrays but I just looked and again, no PAs of front teeth. Everything is just always the back molars or the canine teeth.

As soon as the endo office opens on Monday I will ask them to resend the xrays and I will post them on this thread.

What I was really wanting and hoping for from you was a good explanation of what would happen if I do nothing. My dentist tells me to follow my intuition. All my intuition says right now is that I do not want to extract #7. I have already extracted #19 and have to go through a long implant process. I might be looking at that for #11 as well. I can't face doing #7 right now. So I guess my choices are 1.) Do nothing 2.) Do the RCT with ozone and use it as a stopgap for a few years until the implant on #19 is successful and I figure out and implement what to do on #11 and have that be successful.

So I already know what the outcome of RCT will be (most likely a tooth without pain but with anaerobic bacteria trapped in the tubules that may or may not cause issues down the road) but I am not totally sure about what the future would look like if I did nothing on #7. I can't really accurately compare it to my experience with #11 because that one never had pain. It just one day BOOM a painful abscess which there was no living with. Right now, #7 has pain but no abscess or sign of infection. I have read that calcified canals can sometimes be the body's own way of doing a "natural" root canal. If I live with the pain for awhile, I guess I wonder if that is better in the long run than doing the RCT. Would the pain get worse? If it got worse I couldn't choose the do nothing option. If it stayed exactly like it is now, I could live with it, I just would put ice cubes in my hot drinks or broth to cool it down. I have no pain with room temp or cold. Just a general dull ache from that tooth which gets worse for a moment with heat and then stays a bit more painful for a few hours afterwards. But in the long run, is that OK? Is it safe to live that way? That is what I am trying to figure out. The endo was confused as to why I would want to live with pain when I asked him these questions, but he said that right now it's not dangerous to live with a dying nerve. Lots of people do it without having pain so they don't know. That was my experience with #11.

But...Is that tooth still protected from infection by it's natural defenses at this point? That is what I need to know to make this decision.

Also, I guess I should call the endo office and leave a message for the endo who said I can ask him any questions. He said at the time he would just do a RCT with ozone. But you seem to be implying (and it makes sense) that he would not be able to do that with the calcification and I would have to get another primary apico just like #11. I need to know if this would be the case before I go in IF I go in. My canal on that tooth is calcified but also very wide as all my 4 front teeth basically stopped growing at age 9 with the braces, they say. They said my tooth is the size and shape and has canals like a child's tooth. I am very upset that braces did this to my teeth.

Finally I wanted to clarify the remark I made about being a dental cripple. I know that term well because of my mother. She has almost all of her teeth either RCTed or implanted with bridges. She struggles daily. Hers were not due to decay, they were due to bad dental work through her life. I wonder how genetic my teeth issues are. When I mentioned it I meant that if I default to extraction every time one of my teeth needs a RCT, I may eventually be one. Because the braces blunted my 4 front teeth AND I had the impaction surgery on both canines (with #11 deemed already dead 20 years later) and now my #7 doing a similar fate---I imagine that over my life the remaining 3 fronts and 1 canine will get that way. It's a horrible prospect to think of, but I don't know when or if it will happen. And I don't know how I will respond to implants. Plus my dentist strongly suggests that if I do implants I only do zirconia ones. He said that with my history of hypersensitivity and autoimmune disease, we would not recommend titanium, even though most of the population would probably be OK with them. The zirconia ones are pretty intense of a process--Being that they are one piece and cannot be covered by gums then uncovered after integration, every time I get one I would have to wear an Essix and not chew on that side for 6 months while they are osseointegrating. So....Being that I am going to start that process with #19 in December and wear a lower essix and not be able to chew on my lower left---I cannot also be dealing simultaneously with an upper essix and not being able to chew on my upper right. Does that make sense? I need to do these one at a time I feel. So that is why I am not considering extraction of #7 at the moment.

I hope this all made sense and was no too rambly. If this was an issue of lower molars on the same side it would be such an easy decision to make! I would extract and do implants in the same quadrant. But my case and situation feels a bit bleak. I get very sad when I think about what is going on. This has been one of the worst years of my life. And it's all teeth related!

So if you wouldn't mind, could you please give me a general idea of what I might be facing if I decide to just do nothing on #7 for the moment? How might it progress? Would it ever favorably turn around or would it always get worse? What might be the time frame? It will help me with my decision SO much.

nukuspot,

It is odd that you don't have xrays of your front teeth. The blunting or resorption of the roots began "during" orthodontia as the teeth were moved faster than the body could tolerate. If it wasn't diagnosed at that time, it should have been so the orthodontist could have backed off of the adjustments until the bone could catch up. The resorption of the roots can continue to progress especially if the teeth become traumatized and/or infected.

So as I said earlier, those upper anterior teeth, although asymptomatic, have been in a compromised state for many years. There is no way for anyone to predict what will occur at what time with any of those teeth. This is why many dentists will wait until they become symptomatic before they even mention the root resorption or discuss the problems that can occur due to the condition.

Is it safe to just leave them, even if they hurt? They have been asymptomatic but in a compromised state for years. The symptoms indicate a change is occurring and no one can predict where that will lead to or when/if something else will occur. Your "natural defenses" are dependent on your immune system and how healthy it is and how well it deals with the problems. Anything else that taxes the immune system, like becoming ill, chronic stress, lack of nutrition, allergies or even getting pregnant can cause further symptoms to develop as the immune system becomes busy dealing with other issues.

Things that can occur as a result of traumatic root resorption/blunting are:

**Nothing. In people who have a truly healthy immune system, these teeth will rarely have problems in spite of becoming calcified.

**The nerves inside the tooth can die. If this occurs very slowly and infectious bacteria does not take over, there may be vague or no symptoms. The teeth may just eventually loosen and separate from the periodontal ligament, become very mobile to the point of needing to be extracted or they can literally just fall out. The mobility and loosening of the teeth would become quite evident before they evulse.

**The large canals become calcified, closed. The nerve tissue dies inside and the teeth eventually loosen, etc.

**Any remnants of dead nerve tissue can become infected leading to loosening of the tooth and the ligament or even an abscess.

Root canaling a calcified tooth is like trying to put your fingers into a glove where the fingers of the glove are either sewn shut or only partially open. It doesn't work. Apicos are done on calcified teeth to amputate the blunted root tip and seal it off from the blood vessels in the bone. The "logic" (sarcastically) behind doing the apico .............. there really is none other than it can give the patient false hope that the tooth is miraculously healthy again and the tooth can be retained for an undetermined amount of time. The systemic and neurological consequences of retaining non vital teeth that have been traumatized by an rc or apico procedure are not measurable.

People who have a compromised immune system and/or who have other dental problems, tend to have more severe complications with these teeth than people who are in a healthier state. People who have been healthy and then develop chronic health problems or chronic physical/mental or emotional stress will then tend to develop symptoms in these teeth as their immune system becomes less able to function at an optimal level.

Tooth #7 and tooth #11 are very similar. The only difference is #7 became symptomatic sooner whereas #11 was quiet until it abscessed. Both had suffered the same trauma and both were in the same condition for many years.

I agree with you that dental implants are not without systemic concerns, especially in someone with a compromised immune system. However, zirconia implants are covered by the gum tissue and because they are white they have a tendency not to show through the gum like titanium, unless the gum tissue is very thin. Any dental implant that is placed in healthy bone is not going to show through the gum as it will be embedded in thick, healthy bone. It is when the gum tissue is thin and the bone is compromised due to infection and bone loss that the bone becomes weak and shallow. This is when an implant would show through the gum. I am referring to the buccal or facial side of the gum.

Now if you are talking about the occlusal surface, biting surface, of the dental implant when it is first placed in the bone... that again is dependent on how deeply the implant is placed. On titanium implants a small metal healing cap is put on top of the implant head and this little cap may or may not be visible through the top of the gum as it depends on the individual case. If tissue grows over the healing cap, it is laser ed off before the final restoration is put on. Zirconia implants are one piece, they do not have a healing cap so a small piece of implant is usually seen above the gum line. However, gum tissue may grow over that during the healing phase which is not a bid deal because it is removed with a laser before the final restoration is done. Here is a link about implants.........
http://www.ceraroot.com/patients/zirconia-vs-titanium/

To answer your deeply concerning question about a time frame with #7....
I wish I could give you a time frame as to what will occur if you do nothing with #7 but there is no way for me or anyone else to know that. To get you through the next few weeks, discuss ozone options with your dentist, although anything he does will only be temporary and no one can forecast the longevity of temporary.

I personally believe our immune system is the link to how well our body deals with trauma and chronic inflammation. I know you are concerned and I agree with your concern about the future of all of those front teeth. I think it would behoove you to consider exploring this topic with professional help from an Integrative, Naturopathic or Functional Medical Professional to find out what is going on with your immune system and take measures to improve its function so as to prevent or minimize complications in the future.

Even though we have DNA predispositions, we all have the ability to prevent or minimize those events from happening to us. It all comes down to the health of our individual immune system which is determined by our nutrition, our environment, toxicities, lifestyle choices and our spirituality.

Bryanna

Thank you again for your response. I understand what you say about immunity and lifestyle as how it impacts dental and general health. I am and have been an obsessively "holistic" person. I make sure my family eats 100% organic. We only eat whole, unprocessed foods. I grow much of our own produce in my organic garden, the rest we buy from local organic farms, including our meat and eggs. I bake everything from scratch and am gluten, refined sugar, and mostly grain free. I see a myriad of holistic health practitioners, an integrative MD, ND, acupuncture, chiropractor, (as well as holistic dentists). I take supplements each day which have been tailored to my needs by my holistic physician. I do not use chemicals at all in my life in cleaning or body care. We sleep on organic mattresses, we are in the process of getting rid of all our couches so make our home flame retardant free...It goes on. What I am trying to say by all of this is that I don't know what else I can do to help my immune system not attack my teeth. My doctor also does not know. I am trying unusual things like EFT recently and other energy work. But my teeth keep causing issues.

I have no known allergies (except to certain antibiotics and gluten) and the only stress I have is regarding my teeth! For this last year I sometimes cannot eat or sleep I worry about my teeth so much. Before this I was pretty happy. Other than being pregnant/breastfeeding for the last 6 years, I can't think of anything specific that would cause all my dental issues. I have an autoimmune disease called interstitial cystitis but it has been in remission for the last 6 years. And to my knowledge it should not affect teeth. So I am sure you can understand I am feeling hopeless because it seems like no matter how well I take care of myself, it's not enough. And my teeth are just causing so many issues all at once.

I am going to ask every dentist I know if they could do anything with ozone to help give me more time until I can make a decision. I truly do not want to get this tooth extracted at the moment. It is not the zirconia implant itself that I worry about, it is the essix device that goes over the teeth. Because the zirconia implant cannot get a healing cap like a titanium, gum cannot grow over it and there can be NO pressure on it from occlusal force or eating, etc, during the time it is osseointegrating. So I will have to wear a plastic appliance on all my bottom teeth starting in December for 6 months to protect the implant at #19. It will affect speech. That is why I also know that I cannot have the same process going on in the upper. I want to do one implant at a time per arch.

So my choices remain to either do the RCT and see it as temporary until I can extract it later or leave the tooth the way it is. As everyone who has dental pain knows, there is a very fine line between bearable and unbearable dental pain. Right now this #7 is straddling that line. I can live with it now. But if it even got a tiny bit worse, it would be not able to be functional with. And that is what I am so scared of, if I leave it alone. I go back and forth on my mind about 20 times a day between what my choice would be. I need to call the endodontist on Monday and get a message to him and ask if he thinks he would be doing an RCT or an apico. The quote given to me was for an RCT and the discussion was about RCT. But with the calcification, you are bringing up a good point. How could he RCT through a calcification? Maybe it is not as calcified as I think it is? The teeth are not mobile at all.

I will get them to send me the PA xray tomorrow and I will post it here, if you don't mind. I trust your expert eye so much, and I am sure you can tell me what you see as far as the extent of calcification. Right now I guess I am in an information gathering mode, and your information you give me is very important to me.

I wonder why I don't have any xrays of my front teeth before this? I never knew it was odd. I switched to my holistic dentist about 7 years ago. They take xrays every 2 years but they are just a set of 4 bitewings. All the xrays I have from my dentist before that have been bitewings or PAs too, none of the front teeth. Is it "normal" to take xrays of front teeth? Do they usually do it every 2 years as well? I need to ask my general dentist about that but not sure when I will next see him unless he is willing to do ozone on #7.

nukuspot,

It sounds like you are very wise and well informed on many levels from a holistic aspect. My family has also adapted to an organic and holistic lifestyle that many others would consider to be extreme. We've lived this way for several years and continue to make changes and improvements along the way as we become better informed. It's always good to surround yourself with people who gravitate towards similar healthy goals as that makes the journey so much more interesting.

Are you familiar with the tooth and organ chart? Here is a link to one of them. As you will see, each tooth correlates with different meridians throughout the body that link to different parts of the body. The upper and lower 4 anterior teeth are on the same meridian as the kidney and bladder. All acupuncture meridians are in close connection with their neighboring meridians. The meridians that correlate to our teeth tend to include the adjacent teeth. For example, teeth #7-10 connect to the bladder and kidney which generally means to some degree so does the neighboring teeth #'s 6 and 11.

http://www.naturalworldhealing.com/D...organchart.htm

You had a traumatic and progressive root resorption problem going on with your upper anterior teeth starting sometime around 9 years old or so. At some point the trauma caused portions of the large interior canals to became calcified. Your immune system may not have offered you too many dental symptoms as that was going on, other than with tooth #11. Instead it may have taken a different direction and followed the meridian to your bladder. How long ago did you first experience IC? The immune can change direction when something or somewhere else becomes more irritating to it. Do you understand what I mean?

A Zirconia implant like a titanium implant is not suppose to be disturbed by chewing on it for the first few months. Implants are not fully integrated with the bone until a year has passed since their placement... and that's considering the bone is healthy to start with. Gum tissue can overgrow the end of the implant in some people. It depends on how deeply seated the implant is placed in the bone, how thick/thin or fibrous the gum tissue is and how well the individual's home care is. If tissue grows over it, it is removed by a laser before the final restoration is fitted. The essix retainer is similar to an invisalign retainer and is not cumbersome. Should not interfere with your speaking and may not have to include your entire lower arch. Talk to the dentist who is making that for you to be clear on how large it is going to be.

Allergies..... are you non celiac gluten sensitive or do you have celiac? There are so many levels of immune and auto immune issues associated with allergies and sensitivities. That is a very complicated subject and the only test that I am familiar with that covers all three reactive antibodies to check for delayed hypersensitivity reactions is called the ELISA ACT LRA blood test. Here is the link if you are interested in it: http://www.elisaact.com/

Are you currently working with a holistic practitioner or have you worked with them in the past?

Bryanna

xrays of front teeth
 

nukuspot,

I wonder the same thing because the resorption is not new and would have been detected long before now. Once detected it needs to be monitored for changes or progression.

Bitewing xrays are called cavity detecting xrays for posterior teeth. A full set of radio graphs, 18-20 films which include the 4 bitewings, is usually recommended once every 3 years for all adults. The in between years bitewings are taken to rule out early decay in between the posterior teeth.

Some dentists are lax in taking xrays and that never behooves their patient because you cannot see below the gum line without an xray. The amount of radiation from a full series of digital xrays is equivalent to being outside for 15 minutes. I think it's worth that risk.....

Bryanna

That is so interesting about the tooth meridian chart and the bladder. My IC started in 2004 when I was 24. It came "out of the blue" it felt like, but who knows if it was related to teeth? Maybe that was when they started calcifying?

To answer your questions, I am non celiac but I am gluten sensitive. It know it's a "thing" right now to avoid gluten but this has been part of my life since about 2005. I did many elimination diets and worked with an ND about my IC and was tested for celiac (I think I had the ELISA you mentioned but that was so many years ago) and was negative for IGG/IGA antibodies. But from the challenge tests I did I had a clear sensitivity so I have been GF for about 10 years now.

I have had an integrative MD who I have a really good relationship with for about 10 years now. I have seen a few NDs (some recently about teeth!). But never had a long term relationship as you can say, as I have with my MD. That saying, she is stumped about my teeth as well. I think she was very surprised removing #19 caused my year long ear/face pain to go away. But then I feel like everything has gotten worse in other aspects. I am considered kind of extreme in my group of friends for holistic living. I have many friends who share similar lifestyle choices but I think I'm most...I don't know the word...militant? Especially around food and what my kids eat and exposure to household chemicals or medicines.

I have never to my knowledge had a full set of 20 xrays. I may have long long ago but not in the last 10 years since I lived in this state. I have an e-file of all my xrays and none are front teeth. I know my general dentist right now relies a lot on the CBCT scan so maybe he felt like that was adequate? Though I only had my first one this year...So I don't know. Though it does make me feel a lot better knowing a full set is not a big deal. I have had 33 xrays this year alone between #19, the extraction, #11 and #7. It had been stressing me out a lot.

I will post the xray of #7 tomorrow, if you wouldnt mind checking back here then. I will call the endo office tomorrow to ask them to please re-email it since I did not get it on Friday as I had requested.

Strangely enough I have a long standing appointment with the holistic dentust who did my #19 extraction and will do my implant for this week regarding options around #11. I will ask him about how large the Essix has to be. On the sheet they gave me originally in April it says "covers all lower teeth" but I will confirm. I of course will also ask his opinion about #7. 1/4 of his entire practice is removing RCTs so he feels pretty similar to you I imagine about them. Maybe he has some ideas how to stop the pain in #7 so I can try to wait it out to see if it will reverse or at least go dormant for a few more years until my other implants are done. I know he does not use ozone like my geberal dentist but maybe he has some ideas. I feel this huge crunch for time to make a decision because of my upcoming trip. If pain was not an issue I would just put off any decision making until after I return but I'm very afraid it would get worse while in in NJ. And I don't know what I would do in that case.

here is the xray, if you don't mind giving me your advice

I just spoke to the endo on the phone and he said he had no plans of doing an apicoectomy, that he was confident the tooth could have a standard RCT. I told him I had to be 100% sure walking in to his office and he understood. He said it is my choice when I would go in but he said it's unlikely to settle on it's own. I still am hopeful....

nukuspot,

Thanks for posting the xray.

Tooth #7 your upper right lateral is the tooth currently in question. I will just list the obvious on this xray as it is being presented here:

**The severity in the resorption of the root of this tooth is extensive as you can see that just by comparing it to the adjacent teeth. It almost looks like a deciduous tooth but it is your adult tooth.

**The large canal is mostly calcified. There may be a hairline size canal inside of this tooth but it does not appear to be large enough to thread an instrument inside of it without extensive drilling. The only reason a dentist would drill into this tooth is to reach the end of the root and here's why. The exception to the calcification is at the very top of the root where you can see what looks like a bump coming out of it just to the left of the center. That bump may be a cyst forming from the smidgen of nerve tissue that appears to be inside the tooth at the tip of the root directly below the bump.

**There is bone loss on the distal (left side) of this tooth that stems from the area of the bump. You can actually follow a line from the bump at the top of the root down the left side of the tooth to the crest of the bone. This area appears darker than the other side because there is pathology, probably bacteria from the smidgen of nerve inside the tooth at the top of the root which is causing the bump and causing the bone loss.

The bone loss, the bump and the bacteria did not happen over night. The symptoms probably occurred suddenly because the inflammation has built up to the point that the periodontal ligament is irritated. However, the problem began awhile ago. If you had had anterior periapical xrays of this tooth over the last 3-5 years, the onset of this problem may have been picked up sooner.

The other thing worth mentioning is that the bone above #7 and 8 on this radio graph appears less dense than normal. It could be the angle that this film was taken but it could also be a thinning of the bone that has occurred over time possibly due to the trauma of the ortho. It is important to know about the bone rather than be surprised later on. So to be sure, it would behoove you to have periapical xrays of all of your upper front teeth to see a broader view of the bone. Having the lower anterior xrayed also would be a good idea too if you have not had them done in the last 3 years.

Due to the calcification of this tooth, just like #11, the chance of a perforation is possible. Perhaps you should talk to the endodontist about the likelihood of that... also how does he plan on opening up and instrumenting this tooth due to the calcification ... what is the bump at the tip of the root ..... why is the ligament so dark on the distal of the tooth .... and why does the bone above 7 and 8 look less dense (indicated by the dark color of the bone).

Bryanna

Hi Bryanna,

Thank you.

I know he said (in regards to the calcification) that if he could not open up the area manually they have a chemical that dissolves the calcification. I wonder why they did not do that with #11 (different endo) but it was only 4 years ago.

I hate the idea of chemicals, BTW. I am sure it is something awfully toxic. But that was what he said so I am sharing it with you.

My pain is pretty bad right now. I have 2 appointments with holistic dentists tomorrow to see if they can offer any other option other than RCT or extraction for this tooth. If not I am still unsure what to do but I cannot live like this either. The dentists I see tomorrow both do implants so I can at least ask them about the bone quality if I do extract this tooth either now or at a later date.

Unfortunately I cannot see my usual dentist because this is the one time he takes a 2 week vacation! This was awful luck. But I am seeing people that he refers to a lot. His assistant gave me the idea since I can't wait 2 weeks more to decide.

here is the same picture I posted in the other thread. It was taken of the apico #11 but the other lateral (#10) does show. Can you infer anything about the density of the bone on the left upper side from this? At this moment I do not have any of my two upper front teeth but I will speak to my dentist about this very soon.

the top of this lateral seems to have the same weird bumpy shape as #7, doesn't it? However this one is asymptomatic and doesn't look as calcified. As a layperson that is all I can infer. I would love your opinion.

nukuspot,

The bump is different in #7 compared to #10. The bump on #10 is actually a piece of the root tip and there doesn't seem to be any radio graphic pathology other than some bone loss on both the mesial and distal sides of the tooth. The mesial or left side of #10 looks to have a deeper pocket than the distal, right side. Have you ever had periodontal probing done?

Tooth #7 has possible pathology at the apex at the site of that bump and in the xray of #7 you can trace the pathology down along the periodontal ligament to the ginginval crest of bone. Tooth #10 does not appear to have that problem and it also does not appear to be calcified like #7.

The bone density in general appears thinner or less dense than usual. But again it could be the angle of the film.

Bryanna

Hi again,

Yes I have had periodontal probing, quite recently actually! Nothing abnormal. Everything is 1s, 2s, a few 3s but those were in the back molars.

will the implant/extraction dentist I see be able to tell me about the bone density looking at my CBCT scan? That is not possible to post here but I do have one. Or are there other tests he can do?

I still have no idea what to do.

nukuspot,

Oral surgeons or dentists who have extensive training as well as extensive experience in oral surgery will be able to read a dental CBCT scan very efficiently. General dentists do not have the depth of knowledge about reading these scans like an oral surgeon does so their view of it may be a bit skewed.

I don't know if your dentist who performs extractions and implants is well versed in reading dental CBCT scans or not.

I know this is all quite stressful for you. I feel terrible that you're going through this. If your parents had any informed idea of what was happening during the ortho, they probably would have questioned it. There is no desirable remedy to your problems with tooth #7 or 11. Meaning anything shy of extracting them is a band ade and no one can tell you exactly what will take place or when it will take place if you retain those teeth. The prospect of having extractions and dental implants and all that goes with it, is also very stressful.

It would behoove you to know what the current health of the bone is and if it is okay then removing those teeth before infection and bone loss occur would be to your advantage....considering the overall scheme of things.

Bryanna




nukuspot;1163497]will the implant/extraction dentist I see be able to tell me about the bone density looking at my CBCT scan? That is not possible to post here but I do have one. Or are there other tests he can do?

I still have no idea what to do.[/QUOTE]

I just saw the holistic dentist who is the one that is most recommended in m area for implants and extractions.

For #11 he said that the outer wall of bone is thin. It might be ok but it might not be for implant. He does not do bone grafts. He said he doesn't like the toxicity of them in the body. I asked about an autologous bone graft, like if they harvested bone from somewhere else in my body. He said that should work but he has no experience with it. He has heard of a colleague who does a plant based grafting material which sounds promising but he had never done it so I would be the Guinea pig. I have no wish to be the guinea pig and e understood. He thought my best bet would be either do nothing for now or find someone to extract it that does both a safe protocol (removing the ligament and 1mm of bone to prevent cavitations) AND does grafting. He had no idea if anyone like that existed in my area.

#7 is by far the clear priority because of the pain. He said that if I can get the pain to quiet down, the tooth can possibly calcify further and do its own natural root canal. He said some fully calcified teeth can be retained and tolerated well by the body. Do you agree with that? He said as long as there is no infection present he said that I could try to wait it out and stop the pain by ozone injections, once a week, over the tooth for 1-2 months. If they don't help or the pain gets worse or signs if infection, I could get the RCT with ozone as a non permanent stopgap and extract it at a later date once I've dealt with my other issues and gotten my implant on #19. He said it may be difficult to have a lower and upper Essix at the same time for implants, and no other replacement options would really work as well.

So right now in frantically looking for ozone dentists to schedule a couple of injections before I fly. I hope this works out. It feels like a gamble and I hate that feeling. But if I do have to get that RCT on 7 I want to know that I did everything possible to prevent it.

Ps my father was a dentist so he must have known the risks for my teeth as a child! I can't really get too into it with him because he gets defensive. He says I could just RCT my front teeth if and when they cause an issue and then splint them together if they get loose.

nukuspot,

I am going to re post some of your thread and answer in bold type. Sometimes it just makes it easier to follow.

<<For #11 he said that the outer wall of bone is thin. It might be ok but it might not be for implant.>>

THE OUTER WALL THAT HE IS REFERRING TO IS CALLED THE BUCCAL PLATE. THIS IS THE AREA OF BONE THAT I SAID LOOKED THIN ACROSS YOUR UPPER ANTERIOR. IN GENERAL THIS AREA OF BONE IS THINNER THAN COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE MOUTH. BUT THE DEGREE OF DENSITY IS DIFFERENT FOR EACH PERSON. IN SOME PEOPLE EXCESSIVE THINNING OF THIS BONE IS DUE TO VITAMIN DEFICIENCIES, AND THEN OTHERS IT IS DUE TO BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA OR ORTHODONTIA BEING DONE TOO QUICKLY AND/OR TOO TRAUMATICALLY.

<< He does not do bone grafts. He said he doesn't like the toxicity of them in the body. I asked about an autologous bone graft, like if they harvested bone from somewhere else in my body. He said that should work but he has no experience with it. He has heard of a colleague who does a plant based grafting material which sounds promising but he had never done it so I would be the Guinea pig. I have no wish to be the guinea pig and e understood.>>

I AM SURPRISED THAT THIS DENTIST, WHO HAS PATIENTS REFERRED TO HIM FOR THEIR ORAL SURGERY NEEDS, DOES NOT DO ANY TYPE OF BONE GRAFTING. ALTHOUGH MOST DENTISTS WILL NOT ADMIT TO THIS... THERE IS ALWAYS SOME DEGREE OF CONCERN ABOUT TOXICITY OR CONTAMINATION ISSUES ANYTIME A GRAFT IS PLACED IRRELEVANT OF WHETHER IT IS HARVESTED FROM THE PATIENT OR IT'S DERIVED FROM A CADAVER OR SYNTHETIC MATERIAL. HERE IS JUST A GOOD DESCRIPTION OF DIFFERENT BONE GRAFTS. IT'S A DENTIST WEBSITE BUT I AM ONLY POSTING IT FOR THE GRAFT INFORMATION HE HAS ON LOTS OF SURGICAL TOPICS.

http://www.riverstoneoralsurgery.com...bone-grafting/

<<He thought my best bet would be either do nothing for now or find someone to extract it that does both a safe protocol (removing the ligament and 1mm of bone to prevent cavitations) AND does grafting. He had no idea if anyone like that existed in my area.>>

I AGREE.

<<#7 is by far the clear priority because of the pain. He said that if I can get the pain to quiet down, the tooth can possibly calcify further and do its own natural root canal. He said some fully calcified teeth can be retained and tolerated well by the body. Do you agree with that?>>

I AGREE TO A POINT. PATHOLOGY AROUND #7 HAS NOT BEEN RULED OUT WHICH MEANS INFECTION COULD STILL BE IMMINENT. CALCIFIED TEETH THAT HAVE NO BACTERIAL PATHOLOGY ARE HANDLED DIFFERENTLY, ALMOST BENIGNLY BY THE IMMUNE SYSTEM..... UNTIL BACTERIA SETS IN.

<< He said as long as there is no infection present he said that I could try to wait it out and stop the pain by ozone injections, once a week, over the tooth for 1-2 months.>>

YOU COULD TRY OZONE INJECTIONS, BUT AGAIN IF THERE IS PATHOLOGY PRESENT, THE INJECTIONS MAY NOT WORK.

<< If they don't help or the pain gets worse or signs if infection, I could get the RCT with ozone as a non permanent stopgap and extract it at a later date once I've dealt with my other issues and gotten my implant on #19.>>

YOU COULD DO THAT BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW IF THE PAIN WILL STOP AND THE TOOTH WILL REMAIN QUIET FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME.

<<He said it may be difficult to have a lower and upper Essix at the same time for implants, and no other replacement options would really work as well.>

SO HE WOULD BE PLACING THE ESSIX RETAINER OVER ALL OF THE TEETH IN THE ARCH TO REPLACE #19 OR #7 OR #11?

<<So right now in frantically looking for ozone dentists to schedule a couple of injections before I fly. I hope this works out. It feels like a gamble and I hate that feeling. But if I do have to get that RCT on 7 I want to know that I did everything possible to prevent it.>>

BE CAREFUL ABOUT SEEKING A DENTIST WHO DOES OZONE INJECTIONS. LIKE ANYTHING ELSE, SOME ARE PERFECTED AT IT WHILE OTHERS ARE NOT. THERE IS REALLY NO WAY FOR YOU TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. I AM GOING TO PM YOU A DENTIST NAME AND NUMBER WHO IS CONSIDERED AN EXPERT IN OZONE THERAPY. HE IS IN NJ BUT MAY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A REFERENCE TO SOMEONE NEAR YOUR HOME. IT'S WORTH A TRY.

Bryanna

nukuspot,

I forgot your father was a dentist!!!!! OMG is all I can say!! He obviously practiced old school dentistry and if he is still preaching the rct and splinting routine he has yet to look beyond his original antiquated education ... ugh :/

This explains A LOT about your dental health and your moms!! ;(

Bryanna

I tracked down old xrays of #7 and #11 to compare! You had said that you would have wanted to see an old xray of #7 to see how it had changed over time. I contacted my old dentist and they sent me these, taken in 2011.

#7 looks pretty similar to me in the 2011 vs 2015 picture but of course I have no background reading these. Please let me know what you think!

nukuspot,

Thanks for posting these xrays of #7 and 11.

First I have to mention that the angulation used to take these older xrays was not the best and is not the same angulation as the recent xrays. I remember you saying that you have a small mouth. So taking dental xrays is probably not easy to do on you. I just want you to be aware of the angulation because it makes comparing these areas a bit similar to comparing apples to oranges.

IMO even given the angulation issues, both teeth #7 and 11 do seem to have similar radio graphic pathology on both films. However, neither look what would be deemed healthy on either xray. What is commonly seen in similar situations is that over time as the inflammation builds up in the ligament and bone of the areas that are affected, symptoms begin to occur. Add to the chronic inflammation any sort of auto immune issues, stress.... major hormone altering events like pregnancy.... things will change.

How are you feeling today after that ozone injection yesterday?

Bryanna

I felt much the same today as before the ozone injection but totally weirdly---Now my tooth next to #7 (the front tooth, #8) hurts! But this one hurts at the gumline almost like it's a sore. I looked with a light and a mirror and I can see that the gum has receded above #8 in a small upside down V shape. This is precisely where the pain is coming from, I gently rubbed the gum with a toothbrush. I look and I now see that the gum is receded on #7 as well, but that recession seems to follow the natural curve of the tooth, not the v shape of #8.

Am I just finding these things that may have always been there or could this be where the pain is coming from? Or at least this new pain on #8?

I have long had a gum recession issue. But I never had any pockets, probing depths were always 1-3 in recent years plus the receded areas never gave constant pain, they always just gave a sharp pain when eating sweet things, so I never chewed chocolate or anything that was sweet that could stick to those receded areas. Even sweet fruit hurt them, but it is always just a flash of pain that goes away when the sweet thing was rinsed away with water.

Can receded gums cause constant pain? If so, why just this area? I have other areas that are much more receded than these.

Maybe I am just grasping for straws here. Trying to find any reason I don't need RCT.

nukuspot,

You felt weirdly?? You mean spacey? Do you still feel that way?

Looking again at your panoramic xray, you do have generalized bone loss throughout your dentition and it's a bit severe for a person of your age. This degree of bone loss can occur for several reasons.... ortho done too aggressively .... poor oral hygiene or aggressive oral hygiene during and/or after ortho .... clenching/grinding habit .... mineral/vitamin deficiency.... etc. Frequently when this happens in a young person, the gums will tend to slowly but progressively recede. So when the pocket depths are measured, the numbers will be in the "normal" range of 0-3 mm because of the shrinkage of the gum tissue. However, as the tissue recedes more root structure is exposed which is why you will get that generalized sensitivity to temperature or to sweet when you eat it. The anterior teeth that are blunted due to root resorption will often have the most recession and sometimes be the most troublesome because those teeth are in a fragile state as a good part of their root structure is gone. So they are constantly trying to hang in there. Literally :/

There are nutritional supplements, even some bio identical hormones you can take to encourage the bone to become healthier. It is best to work with a Nutritionist or other expert for the proper combinations, dosages, and knowledge of quality brands. Some examples of the supps would be Vitamin D3, Boron, Calcium D-Glucarate, Magnesium, Vitamin K2, and Vitamin C. The combination, dosage, quality and source of ingredients will make a huge difference in how the body metabolizes them.

The only reason someone would recommend rct on any of your blunted root anterior teeth is because the only other option is to extract them. RCT in any of them does not solve the anatomical problem and it does not prevent the resorption problem from progressing. It also exposes you to toxic disinfectants and rc filling material. It's a catch 22 situation, especially at this time of your life as you are not mentally prepared to lose your front teeth. I mean .... who is?! The dentist does not want you to be in pain. So he only knows to remove the immediate source of your pain is to remove the remnants of nerve tissue inside the tip of the large canal that is not calcified. After that, no one can predict the timeline of events that may occur after the rct is done.

How is your mouth feeling today? Any changes, good or other?

Bryanna





QUOTE=nukuspot;1164175]I felt much the same today as before the ozone injection but totally weirdly---Now my tooth next to #7 (the front tooth, #8) hurts! But this one hurts at the gumline almost like it's a sore. I looked with a light and a mirror and I can see that the gum has receded above #8 in a small upside down V shape. This is precisely where the pain is coming from, I gently rubbed the gum with a toothbrush. I look and I now see that the gum is receded on #7 as well, but that recession seems to follow the natural curve of the tooth, not the v shape of #8.

Am I just finding these things that may have always been there or could this be where the pain is coming from? Or at least this new pain on #8?

I have long had a gum recession issue. But I never had any pockets, probing depths were always 1-3 in recent years plus the receded areas never gave constant pain, they always just gave a sharp pain when eating sweet things, so I never chewed chocolate or anything that was sweet that could stick to those receded areas. Even sweet fruit hurt them, but it is always just a flash of pain that goes away when the sweet thing was rinsed away with water.

Can receded gums cause constant pain? If so, why just this area? I have other areas that are much more receded than these.

Maybe I am just grasping for straws here. Trying to find any reason I don't need RCT.[/QUOTE]

Oh I'm sorry to be misunderstood! No I didn't feel weird or spacey, I felt weird because my front tooth hurt and that was new and weird and frustrating.

I felt pretty normal after the ozone. I still feel fine, it seems to have not hanged much of anything with that first injection. But he gave me the lowest therapeutic dose. I think next week I will have more.

I take a lot of the supplements you mention already from Thorne. I like that brand.

I started using a sensitive toothpaste which I never do usually because the most "natural" one I can find is Toms and it has SLS...But I really need to try to take my overall pain level down as much as I can so I can function and think and make decisions. I also am thinking maybe I can put MI paste (again not something I usually use) on the tooth necks with the exposed areas due to recession to help with the sensitivity. What do you think about that?

Last night I had such a hard time eating because of my general teeth pain (especially #7) that I decided to do the RCT next week with ozone just to get out of pain temporarily as I look for a good OS who can extract and do zirconia implants AND bone grafts.

But now I wake up this morning and I feel less pain so of course now I don't want to do the RCT again and just want to tough it out.

I imagine the generalized bone loss was from the aggressive braces. But I also was vegan from age 15-25. I am sure I had deficiency of multiple nutrients during the time I needed it the most. My nutrition now is pretty perfect I think but the damage may have already been done in the formative years. I am not saying vegan diets are bad, I'm just saying that they have to be done with care and planning and supplements. I did none of those as a teen. I was vegan from an animal rights perspective so nutrition was not a huge focus.

Oh I also never saw you mention the comparison between the old xrays I posted and the new ones. To me they look pretty similar which means maybe the resorption is not progressive and it already happened earlier in life. What did you think when you looked at the ones from 2011 I got from my old dentist?

nukuspot,

I did respond to you. Here, I have copied and pasted my response...

nukuspot,

Thanks for posting these xrays of #7 and 11.

First I have to mention that the angulation used to take these older xrays was not the best and is not the same angulation as the recent xrays. I remember you saying that you have a small mouth. So taking dental xrays is probably not easy to do on you. I just want you to be aware of the angulation because it makes comparing these areas a bit similar to comparing apples to oranges.

IMO even given the angulation issues, both teeth #7 and 11 do seem to have similar radio graphic pathology on both films. However, neither look what would be deemed healthy on either xray. What is commonly seen in similar situations is that over time as the inflammation builds up in the ligament and bone of the areas that are affected, symptoms begin to occur. Add to the chronic inflammation any sort of auto immune issues, stress.... major hormone altering events like pregnancy.... things will change.

How are you feeling today after that ozone injection yesterday?

Bryanna

Oops!

I totally remember that. Sorry for thinking you didn't respond!

I just started taking a product by Thorne called phytoprofen recommended by my naturopath. I hope it helps bring the nerve inflammation down.

Also, my chiropractor suggested I try clove oil topically on the painful area of #7 to see if numbing it might confuse the sensory nerves and settle it down.

Do you know of any reason to not try it? I just don't want to risk hurting the gum area if clove oil could burn or otherwise make anything worse.

I postponed my root canal appointment. Getting another ozone injection early next week. Trying all the densitizers I can think of (except clove oil--I want to wait to know if that can burn or not, if you can tell me Bryanna.) Taking herbal antinflammatories. Meditating on my nerve asking it to heal. This is going to be the most tried to be prevented root canal in history at this rate..... :)

nukuspot,

Clove oil will not burn the gum if you use it sparingly. However, unless you are using it in an open wound like an extraction site, it will have limited value as the problem is inside the tooth which is embedded in jaw bone.

What herbal remedies are you taking?

Bryanna

Phytoprofen by Thorne

Homeopathic hypericum