Vitamin D insufficient
 

So my blood test for vitamin D just came back and I'm grossly insufficient at vitamin D 23 ng/ml. I don't get it, as I eat lots of fish and meat, and just before the test has started taking some cod liver oil.

I had a level around 30 and they said not to worry about it just get some sun.:confused: Supplementation tends to be insufficient for Vitamin D. Sun is the best source. This is what the docs told me at least.

One cannot really get adequate D from food.

The basic suggesting is 1000IU D3 for every 10 points to raise.
A good goal would to 50.

The problem with cod liver oil, is the A content. Getting too much A this way when raising doses, is a problem. Too much A can lead to intracranial hypertension.

So David you would need 3000IU D3 daily as a supplement.
This is easy to do and most of the D3's are inexpensive.

Thank you both. My numbers are quite low, so perhaps I should take more, say 5000? Or would 3000 be sufficient? I noticed on the D thread you or perhaps others recommending or noting that in studies they gave patients 50 000 or so? That seems excessive.

I wish I could get more sun, but not here and in the winter. In about a month I should be in Florida for a week, so I'll make sure to soak it up.

I wonder whether my SFN is linked to such low D levels. I do have all sorts of joint and muscle pain and muscle twitching.

Also, my calcium and magnesium levels are in the normal range.

I'll also need to get some K2, since I know supplementing with D3 alone is ill advised.

The 50,000 used by doctors is D2 Rx... and we now know this is
very ineffective for humans. (so the high number is really meaningless. Ergocalciferol is not active in humans).
This form exists as an historical footnote only. But still doctors continue to use it...and the patients do not benefit at all.

The D3 is cholecalciferol and OTC.

You can take 5000 D3, and get tested in several months to see how you do. People sometimes need more than 1000IU D3 for each 10 pts needed to raise.

The reason docs don't worry about it is because it is small potatoes to them. In their opinion, Vitamin D status doesn't impact patient outcomes, according to clinical research. That is why my new primary wouldn't even order a Vitamin D test for me and rattled that fact off to me, even though my last test showed that my Vitamin D is in the 20's.

Clearly my primary doesn't have body wide burning and pain, like I do. And clearly she is not interested in trying to optimize every small thing she can, like I'm trying to. :mad: I'll order my own Vitamin D test from else where.

As always, thank you, MrsD. I'll get the supplements today, and take it with lunch or dinner, and perhaps with breakfast tomorrow. Had no idea, but glad I asked my doctor to test for it.

Exactly.

I use a liquid product by Thorne Research. It has both D3 and K2.

Thanks, Madisongrrl. I'm looking into this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=A5W198TSQJIXA. There's some calcium too, though I don't need it. I couldn't find a pure K2 to add to a D3, and though I almost purchased the Thorne one - I usually do well with their purer products - it uses some oil I don't care for and uses MK4 for the K2, I believe, and MK7 is superior, at least from what I've read so far.

For the record, as a Texan I get sun pretty much everyday for long enough to make a difference and even with a multivitamin my D levels were STILL low!

I too have to supplement and use Thorne's D3/K2 product.

I don't know that MK7 is superior. I'm not sure that the clinical research has proven that; however, science keeps speeding ahead and I can't seem to keep up. I will try to put in a little research time later this week.

The bit of info is here:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...-benefits.aspx

But it's in other places too. Basically the idea is that MK7 sticks around longer to be absorbed and used, great bioavailability, that's all.

A brief report: I've now been on D3/K2 at lunch and another 1000 IU of D3 at dinner for a few days, and I can see the change, or so I think. It seems that bone and joint pain is down and my energy and mood is better and more positive. Now, this could be placebo or just correlation (and so not causation), but regardless I'll take it. I really think that being so low on vitamin D and supplementing would make and so is making a difference.

Another report one week or so on
 

I've had terrible diarrhea every other night for the past week, and a simultaneous metal or something akin to it taste in my mouth/on my tongue, with some yellowish residue. Sorry if I've grossed anyone out.

I suspected two other things before I realized it could be the new vitamin D3/K2 and/or D3 that I had started taking. They're both from the same company, not a US company but a very reputable one, though one I've never used. Like the others I take, they are as pure as I could get them, so lanolin based, organic coconut oil, water, cellulose, bovine gelatin and glycerin from palm oil. It could either be one of the ingredients, since it does have palm oil and I don't believe any of my other supplements do. I don't even believe any of the others have gelatin, so that's possible too. The oil could be rancid, though my wife's excellent sense of smell couldn't pick it up. It could also be the K2 causing the problems. It could also be the dose, but 2000 IU of D3 is hardly overdosing. Finally, and this would be unfortunate, it could be the lanoline, so an allergy to that. I have another one, the Pure Encapsulations Calcium D/K coming next week so I will try that. I've stopped taking these two for now and will see how the new brand works. It's much purer still, with just cellulose and water in addition to the medical ingredients.

Has anyone had such an experience?

I've never had that experience but I had ordered the Pure Encapsulation cal D/K a few days ago as I'm almost out of my vitamin D. I've been happy with that brand so far. I'll be starting it Monday so we can compare notes.

Thanks, Pinky. Will this be your first go at the Pure Encapsulations? We can definitely compare notes. I really hope it's not the lanoline that I'm having a reaction to. There are other non-lanoline options, but the fish oil is not ideal or as concentrated without the A getting really high, though there is this, which my research turned up last night: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A269N201SWOEB6. I hope it's one of the ingredients in what I'm using and I don't have to also throw out the PE calcium d/k.

Fish body oils do not have A in them. Only the liver derived oils have Vit A in them. i.e. Cod liver oil.

David it will be the 1st time for this product but not the 1st time I've used Pure Encaps. I took their folic acid & I think also zinc. I have their R Lipoic Acid waiting in the wings. I like their products because they have less additives.

MrsD, so there are fish body oils that have high concentrations of vitamin D3? I suppose there the worry would be the mercury, but perhaps they can and do take it from smaller fish, hence reducing the amount of mercury absorbed. I'll do some research, thank you.

Pinky, we'll be guinea pigs for it at around the same time. I've used some of their products before and have the R lipoic coming too and many others. Yes, I like their products for precisely that reason too. I avoid all fillers and additives to the extent that it's possible, and so far so good, though sometimes it takes me quite a while to find something I need.

Pinky, FYI, I came across this now too:

http://www.pureencapsulations.com/vi...an-liquid.html

HI David,

MK7 is definitely more bioavailable, but I've been putting in a little bit of research and it seems like the clinical properties in the MK7 are NOT as proven in the scientific literature as they are for MK4. Part of this could be because MK7 has been studied less than MK4. And there have been no comparator studies that have looked at which one is superior...at least I haven't found any yet.

In rat studies they have looked at arterial calcification and found that K2 MK4 is what the arteries prefer. We aren't good converters of K1 (leafy greens) to K2 MK4, so supplementing with the MK4 form will possibly help reverse or prevent arterial calcification.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17138823

MK4 seems to be very effective at preventing osteoporosis related fractures in humans.

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...ticleid=410550

This study on MK7 concluded that it did not stop bone loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19937427


My list of pros/cons for K2 MK4 vs K2 MK7:

• MK4 is synthetic and while MK7 is natural

• MK7 cost more than MK4

• MK7 is more bioavailable than MK4

• MK4 is more studied and proven than MK7

• If you have a soy allergy, you could react to MK7

Would you agree with this? Has anyone looked into this and what do you think? I'm probably going to stick with MK4 for now, but I'm always open to new information.

Hi Madisongrrl,

This is great stuff. Thank you for sharing. Did I not see it, or is the first link/study not specify whether they administered MK4 or 7? It seems like it was a mix of K1 and K2 (ambiguously), no? The second link is clearly positive for MK4, and the last one unfavorable for MK7, no doubt.

What to conclude? I think what you say is right. My inclination now is to take both, or a supplement that has both. But there is this: http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/...475-2891-11-93. So if taking 4, especially if alone, I would imagine needing to supplement at higher doses, though would that be safe? But it seems like the limited research has at least raised concern regarding whether the serum availability of 7, which is clearly far superior, translates into bone availability or saturation, which is after all the real issue, right?

I wonder now if my reaction to the two supplements is to the K2, or more precisely to soy. I used to eat a ton of soy, but that was before all this. I'm curious how the Pure Encapsulations will work out - that's 7 and K1, and I imagine lanoline derived D3.

So, before sending this off, I tried to find another study, and did find a longer, three-year study and it seems quite a bit more promising: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23525894. Interestingly, the total hip was once again not well served. I wonder what's going on there.

Alright, that's it for now. Thanks again for the links and the thoughts. I might think if finding something with some MK4 too, though it seems I would need a high dose. I have to do a bit more research when I have more time.

So I've been on a bit of a roller coaster ride with D3. It's been a month or so on this trip, since I needed to leave time to get back to baseline before trying something new.

Initially I took a 1000 IU D3/K2 (MK7, so from natto) mix with an additional 1000 IU of D3 and I had some bad reactions, severe diarrhea in fact, as I believe I reported on this thread. There was also indigestion and nausea. I then waited to received the Pure Encapsulations Calcium K/D and tried that. I only had one capsule, so 500 IU and it upset my stomach, though very mildly. Although it was too soon to tell, I decided to cut that out, realizing that I needed to first try it pure, as we know we should do, so as to isolate the problem. So I took the D3 that I have made with organic coconut oil, glycerin from palm, and bovine gelatin. So far I've taken it for 3 days, today being the 4th, and it has progressively or increasingly upset my stomach, but not very much. Last night was the worst as I felt somewhat nauseous, though in the morning I also had mild diarrhea. Today there was no diarrhea.

But I wanted to report something more interesting and problematic. It has been great taking the D3 in one sense: I have an amazing amount of energy and drive the likes of which I've not seen in some time. My mood is amazing, my energy through the roof, I awake in the morning and I feel completely fresh, and so on and so forth. But that's the problem: for example, last night I couldn't get to bed/didn't want to until 2:30/3 am, and then I didn't feel like sleeping. I then woke up a few hours later. I did force myself on all three mornings to sleep in longer but I don't want to be waking up in the middle of the day, given work and everything else. But my symptoms will be quite intense without lots of sleep. This is all vivid, because before the D3 I was sleeping quite well: about 8-10 hours a night, something I can't recall doing since my early teens, before my life long battle with insomnia.

I plan to keep taking the D3, but rather than at night with dinner, in the morning with breakfast. I'll keep taking the same one for now. But if the digestive and other problems continue, I plan to try one more lanolin based D3, the purest one I can find with no glycerin or oils or gelatin, the Pure Encapsulations D3 1000 IU. If that fails, then I will try this, which is quite a bit more pricey, it seems, though perhaps not in the end: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=A910SOE1FKRQR. It is lichen based as it will be clear at that point that I'm allergic to lanolin.

I had suspected the K2 source, natto, but perhaps it is the lanolin, since on some level I think I may have mild allergies to wool. I'm not too keen on lichen as a source, since some who have mold/bacteria/fungus issues have reported some serious allergic reactions, but it may be my only option short of high mercury and high vitamin A fish oils. I have heard though that people who get a crazy boost on the lanolin don't have such an extreme reaction on the lichen source, so that's good. I mean, I like the energy and productivity, but I also want to be able to unwind and get some sleep at night. Hopefully the change to taking it in the morning will help with that.

Thanks for listening and if you have any ideas, thoughts, suggestions and the like, let me know.

EDIT/ADDITION: I've considered of just carrying on with the lanolin based D3, if I only have mild allergic reactions, but then I worry that this is causing inflammation and that's never a good idea in my state.

Now brand has D3 and K together in Liposomoal spray formula and caps.

hope - possible to raise D levels
 

I'd like to give a ray of hope.

It is possible to significantly raise your Vitamin D levels.

I had very, very low levels. I had a million things continually going wrong with me. In January last year, I had the goal to get healthy or just stop the barage of new things going wrong and specifically raise my Vitamin D levels.

First, I took daily "WildOel", product in Europe, more natural form of vitamin D, in a tablespoon of olive oil along with a meal with fats, to help with absorption.

Secondly ... less practical ... but made huge difference to health overall .... I made a big sacrifice, talked to loved ones, did my research and found an in expensive way to spend three months, during winter in warm weather with sunshine closer to the equator and was religious about being in the sun each day (only need 30 minutes, too much sun and your body limits/regulates how much D it's absorbing so you don't overdose).

Thirdly ... when I came back, I was absolutely religious (set my daily alarm) to no matter what, get out in the sun over Spring/Summer/Autumn for 20 minutes daily before 2pm. (see note below).

My health improved soooo-oooo-oooo much and my D levels gradually came way up to a very healthy level by Autumn. Infact I tested quite well.

My body was telling me I had to change my life and so I knuckled down and found a way to do what was needed. My family was more supportive than I expected.

So perhaps not all my solution is practical for everyone but it is possible to see a very healthy improvement in D levels over the course of half a year.

At some point, for some of us, there comes a time when you have to ask if your body won't let you recover until you do something big, possibly very very inconvenient, that's needed to heal.

Natalie

P.S. Please note that because of the angle of the sun to the planet, anyone who lives above the latitude of Los Angeles will not receive Vitamin D from the sun from the start of October until the start of April and will only get Vitamin D from the Sun the rest of the year before 2pm. There's actually more gradient than this, but this is a very rough rule of thumb. However, this does not mean that there aren't many other benefits from getting out in the sun outside of these time windows. For example, seeing good light in the morning has a strong effect on your bio rhythms during the day and how well you fall asleep at night, etc.

Thank you for this. It's wonderful to hear, and good on you. Sometimes we do need to make drastic changes and finally listen to our bodies, I agree.

I am already noticing a major difference in how my body is working, and it has only been a few days, less than a week, so much so that my wife, who doesn't touch supplements and vitamins - she is very health - is thinking of supplementing with D. It's truly amazing. I wonder how it all will progress in the days, weeks and months to come.

I write this on yet another cloudy day, with rain, or snow, or what have you. I think we'll at least take a trip down south, perhaps to Florida for a week or so. That should help. And perhaps I can find a way to find us a summer home now and then, since we can both work remotely in the summers.

I have to say, it's nice that you have such a supportive family and that you were able to use all this to your advantage for such great improvement. How did it affect your PN, if I may ask?

Yes, taking one, or a couple spaced out, short breaks down south during the height of a cold dark winter can make a big difference, physically and mentally. Perhaps consider a "winter home" since you probably have sun in summers.

One place to suggest for Vita D travel ... if you want something cost effective, hunt around for good airfare and stay in a health resort or use vrbo.com or airbnb.com to stay in the Puna area of the big island of Hawaii. This is a very affordable, downright cheap, area of the whole islands to stay. American's think of Hawaii of being just off the coast of California. The fact is that it is closer in latitude to Mexico City. Great, affordable place for Winter Vitamin D. Full of Minnesotans in winter.

As for PN improvement, at the time I had a couple of emotional meltdowns because I had some instances where I could see that my PN was much worse than I previous thought it was. However, later this year I have had some wonderful PN surprises, where my partner has looked at me and said "look you are (standing, walking, being in the cold, etc) much longer than a year ago ... you could never had done this a year ago". I have been considering writing a post titled "here's some evidence of hope for fellow chemo pn-ers", however, I don't want to jump the gun. I need to properly push myself and test out exactly what my limits are and if/how they have improved.

That is a rub, isn't it Natalie? An ebb and flow to symptoms as time passes, at least for me. I've found journals showing symptoms back to 2010 but 2011 is a year on medical paperwork. Last year was rough with some positive signs near the end.

Then some steps back. Nice to hear you have some encouraging things going on. We have rain turning to snow today with an unfrozen lake bringing lake effect snow for a week. woohoo. hah.

Best wishes for continued improvement!

Jon

Thanks, Natalie. I completely agree. I miss the sun so much. And yes, I meant a winter home, or what I meant was a summer home as in a home where it's summer now. :)

For us, Florida would be much cheaper, but I'll look into your suggestion. I think my wife would like this idea. I haven't traveled for pleasure since all this started. I can tell you this much: the moment summer comes, or spring for that matter, I'll make sure to walk out and get exposure religiously too. The lanolin has done amazing things for me, but I'm clearly having digestive upset. I will soon be trying D3 from lichen and hope that will stick. I can see such a huge difference with 1000 IU a day of D3. It's like a miracle drug. Mood, energy, symptoms, you name it. Amazing!

I'm so glad to hear you've had improvement, and without even noticing it. It's nice, isn't it? :) I hope you continue to have such improvement. I'm going to emphasize D and get it whenever I can. Your ray of hope is very welcome. I will have my numbers tested in the next month or two, to see where I'm at, and whether I've seen improvement.

It may take a little while but stick with it.

Better yet, invest in building little tricks to get out in the sun as part of a lifelong habit.

Sunlight has all kinds of numerous known and unknown health benefits besides just the vitamin D.

I agree. I used to live in the sun, and much closer to the equator. How things have changed. Water and sun are the source of life for a reason.

there are topical creams now available with D3 in them.
They claim a transdermal delivery system.

Amazon has many for sale now.

Interesting. Didn't know that. I'll look into it. Of course, I imagine they'll all be from the same sources as the oral ones.

I'll look into right now in fact. :)

If digestive upset is your only symptom, that is not typical of an "allergic" response. Allergies release histamine globally and skin reactions would be likely. A topical bypasses the GI mucosa, and gets into the blood directly.

Right, I was thinking the same thing when I was responding, and suspected you'd say as much. This is good. Now, I also had to scratch a bit and had hives on a few occasions, but so much is happening that I can't be sure it's the lanolin. Either way, it seems like it's worth a try. Right now I have the lichen one coming, so I'll use that and see. But I might also order a lotion and see about that too. It's just another option, and given how important D is to me clearly, I need all the help I can get.

I was thinking the other day that I recall you saying or advising that people should start with D and B12 first and see what happens. Well, I think you're dead right. I wish I had started with D months ago!

You probably already knew this but here are some notes I had on Vita D Foods:

Vitamin D: 200ug RDA, very few VitaD Foods.
Cod, Cod Liver Oil, Eggs, Mackerel, Salmon (Chinook and Sockeye), Sardines, Shrimp, Tuna Canned.

Yes, David.... the Big Three.... Vitamin D, B12, and magnesium are commonly low in adults these days.

Omega-3's and Vitamin B1 are then next in line.;)

Thanks. :) I eat lots of seafood, including all of those - I take it easy on the tuna and bigger fish but have it once in a while. Right now I don't eat eggs, but will reintroduce it at some point.

MrsD, this is my second day on the lichen based D3 (this product: http://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Natural...urals+vegan+d3), and I'm clearly having an allergic reaction, a global reaction, with itching, redness/rashes and hives. It's not particularly intense, not too bad, but it's obvious.

I don't know what to do now that I have issues with both lanolin and lichen based. I'm thinking of taking this a few more days to see if it will 'grow' on me, if my body will get used to it. If not, then I plan to try another one that lichen based by capsules with different ingredients. That likely won't solve the problem but it's possible. If all that fails, I plan to try a pure lanolin based one, which has nothing but a cellulose capsule added. If that fails too, then D3 lotion that's lanolin based. If that fails, my only option is D2, I think. Does it not absorb at all?

I'm really reaching here. It's obvious that my body needs lots of vitamin D and that I get significant improvement immediately, unlike anything else, but I'm having problems finding one that doesn't cause me problems.

Anyway advice, thoughts from anyone will be appreciated.

EDIT/ADDITION: Last night I had a dream that I had discovered a third source of D3. Talk about wish fulfillment. I awoke and as soon as I realized it has just been a dream, I was immediately upset.