Thread integrity..
 

At present, when posts are removed, for whatever reason, they leave no trace. This is obviously desirable if the original post is spam or trolls etc.

But when it occurs in a bona fide thread, and that post has already attracted responses and replies, it is completely wrong, in my opinion, to leave no evidence whatsoever of the post.

The resulting thread is reduced to an inaccurate account of the postal transactions, making a mockery of all posts sent after the post was removed, but it actually compromises all posts in a thread.

It would be a more honest account of a thread's proceedings if the post's *contents only* were removed, and replaced with something like "post removed at user's request" or "post removed; mod action required" whatever the reason is. Then at least one could see that a post had been made, by whom and when.

This would give the subsequent posts a context and framework at least, and readers would have some information on which to base their understanding of a thread's contents. It doesn't matter what was in the post, the fact of the posting is what matters.

Dismantling the structure of a thread dismantles the thread itself. Without a record of a removed post, all posts are compromised, both before and after the removed post.

NT at the moment is unaccountable for its post removal actions. I realize it has every right to be so, but I feel that some public record of the action must remain. It happens frequently enough to be a point of very deep concern to me.

I must add that because of the present way of handling removed posts, I now wonder if I can continue posting here. The resulting mess of a butchered thread (and there are several, at the very least) gives such an inaccurate account of a thread's development and meaning.

I can no longer trust what I read. Or trust that what I write will be seen properly within the framework in which it was first written.

I am so saddened by it.

I have switched off PMs, mods may PM/email me if they need to; I feel this is an NT forum-wide matter and have no wish to discuss it privately.

This post may be removed; I would hope the forum admin is able to allow a free discussion. If it survives, please everybody think hard about the way removed posts are being handled.

They just need to be logged properly as part of a thread's integrity, or it has none.

all the best...

PS I want to make it clear I am addressing post removal only, not editing.

Hi artist

I am surprised at the word "frequently" because actually, posts are very seldom removed here in their entirety unless they are really so bad that editing isnt even possible OR unless their removal is requested by the OP, again something that is done with care and not always granted.

One of the reasons for only allowing 24hr edit window is so that thread integrity isnt corrupted

The method we always prefer to use is to request that members self edit within the allotted time for edits.

Sometimes we may request an edit, and the member may decide that they would rather have the whole post removed, instead of an edit

One thing tho that I can assure you is that edits and deletes are something we are very loathe to do, and that are only done when we either dont get co-operative editing from the board, or when a thread is deteriorating rapidly and we get a lot of reports and an explosion is imminent

When a post is removed from a thread, it is stored in the admin forum's deleted posts section, and can be returned to a thread if needed or reviewed etc. So there is always a record of thread removal.

We never remove a post that isnt just pure SPAM, without contacting the OP and explaining why, or giving them the option to edit the post (we PM it to them) and then we will put it back

We are very accountable here, and i would hope that we have shown that many times by openly answering questions on the boards or via PM

It isnt always easy to please everyone, but we do our best.

First and foremost, we are obliged to follow the guidelines that DJ has put in place to maintain overall peace and harmony on the boards.
We try to interfere as little as possible in the forums and actually pass over a lot of things so as to always give the opportunity for disputes etc to be resolved first before we step in.

I know that sometimes it may seem different, especially when a member is involved in posts that are edited or deleted, and may not be happy about the course of action. But we work a lot behind the scenes via PMs to try to resolve these things, and so members may not always be aware of just how hard we try to keep our "censorship" to a minimal and to respect the flow of conversation on the forums

We may not be perfect........but we do try to maintain a very open administration here, and where we certainly wont tolerate flaming posts about it, open questions and concerns are always answered as fully as we can

If I understand correctly, you are asking that, instead of an admin removed post showing nothing left behind, you would prefer a "deleted by" message like shows when a member deletes there own post?
That is noted and will be brought to all admin team attention

We care about you artist and I hope my answer addresses your concerns

Cheri

I went back into our removed threads archive and could find no thread that matches the description artist provided -- a legitimate discussion taking place on a health topic where multiple people posted and the entire thread was removed. 99% of the threads removed during that time were spam or trolls.

We specifically do not remove entire threads when only one post is problematic. The problem post in the thread is edited by the original poster (or by us, with an explanation attached), or deleted, depending upon the nature of the problem. The thread itself remains intact.


DocJohn

Hi,

I am not talking about *thread* removal at all. Just *post* removal (within a thread).

I also have no wish to discuss the merit, demerit or reason for deletion of a post. None whatsoever.

Just whether the action of removal should be recorded. At present when a post is deleted there is nothing to show it was ever there, making the whole thread, but specially the section following the invisible missing post, confusing in the extreme.

So I am suggesting that the *contents* of the post be removed if that is what is wanted/requested/needed, but the original "placeholder" that shows the username and time of posting, should remain to show that a post was made.

That's all....

all the best!

Hi artist
yes, that was what I understood that you were saying as noted in the quote from my post above

Thank you, Chemar, yes, that is exactly what I propose! Doesn't even need a message really, just "post deleted" would do, it's the public recording of the fact that a post was made, in context, that I feel is important.

all the best!

see
the problem is that we DONT delete members posts...only spammers and trolls....actually even trolls posts get archived for reference....so only SPAM is made to go poof.

when we remove a member post in it's entirety, which, I have to emphasize again is a rarity and only done when there is no co-operation or no way to just edit it, then we MOVE it to the deleted archives on admin forum

there is no field for us to leave a message when doing that, because it isnt deleted, it is moved.........and we cant exactly leave a redirect to admin archives LOL

however, as promised, we have started a discussion on this to see whether we can work around it to still be able to leave a message stating the action taken, and I am hopeful it can be done.It will be an extra step for mods to have to do...but may work.

see...........we do try to always be accountable for our actions :)
Cheri

ps I too misunderstood when i first read your post and thought you were referring to us removing whole threads, which i know for a fact is hardly ever done. It was only when I had my second cuppa tea and had a less fuzzy morning brain LOL that I understood that you were referring to individual posts in a thread.

I hope the explanation re deleted vs moved posts explains why no message currently occurs when a post is removed, and that we will attempt to implement a way to leave a message in future

Cheri's added some good info. Posts aren't deleted forever. There's a record somewhere.

Artist,

See, our practice is to move the post that's against guidelines out of sight. At the same time, we care much for our members' privacy here and say as little as possible publicly. We can alter that practice with the post remaining in tact out of sight BUT leave a brief account of action done and why.

Is that what you're asking for? If so, I think it a good idea.

To respect the member that's being edited, there won't be detail. I certainly see no reason not to leave a note though saying, "mod/admin edit" or "edit at the request of poster" to allow for a more complete understanding of the thread dynamics.

I see what you're saying when just one post is gone in a thread but the thread has changed directions...it's confusing and can be misleading. This way people would at least know there's something they missed, right?

(((((( Artist )))))) Thank you for the suggestion. I really think you're spot on with this, and sometimes we (inside the box) can't see these things that could be very helpful.

KD

It does explain it, thank you, Chemar.

I hope very much that some method can be devised to record within the thread the postings removed (or transferred).

I tried to be clear, but realized that I myself often use the words "posts" and "threads" interchangeably, lord knows why...so I was painstakingly careful about my wording...once you understand it, I think my post is very clear (once you understand it, lol)....

all the best :)

Thank you KD, I was replying to Chemar while you posted.

Yes, indeed, that is what I mean. I don't care two figs what you put in the blank "placeholder" - or whatever you can come up with, I'm sure your collective judgement will be appropriate.

BTW, I just wish to stress that of course I do not mean we should apply this to obviously unwanted posts, like spam, just the bona fide posts that, for whatever reason and yes, most often at the poster's own request, are transferred.

This would certainly restore my faith in NT, and I truly believe will help reader's understanding of the thread dynamics.

Thanks all for bearing with me,
all the best!

As far as I'm concerned, it's done then. I should add that I'm not final say, but I really don't see an issue with it at all.

I agree with you. There are some very complicated threads that go on, and don't always see every aspect/angle of the conversation flow, so a quick "flag" could be really helpful.

Yep, I know you aren't referring to spam or anything. I'll add another thing. I doubt we'll do it when it's the first post in a thread as well...with no responses yet.

Deal?

I'm in!

KD

Deal!

Can't find a handshake icon, so you'll just have to be hugged ;)
all the best :hug:

hugs work for me ;)

i'll post the final word on the new proposed mod/admin action soon! I want you to know exactly what to expect, but more importantly what you can count on to happen. :)

kd

Artist,

Thank you again for the request which is evolving into, what I think, a good solution to thread management and understanding for the readers.

We do have a concern about thread integrity and history...people changing history during a tiff, etc. It was still happening, but in a different form, yes? History was being changed with little to no awareness to the reader.

We don't always see these things and having them pointed out constructively only helps this site be what we all need (for the most part and realistically).

Based on my understanding of your request, and the need for thread integrity and history, it's been agreed that future mod/admin procedure when removing an entire post from an active thread, will include:

Leaving the frame of the post needing deleted in its entirety (time, username, etc.) and leaving a note stating either 1) This post has been removed per guidelines; or 2) This post has been removed at the request of the poster.

This way anyone reading will know why a thread has potentially changed direction, understand the following post appearing to "come from nowhere", etc.

When we make a simple edit without taking the entire body, there will still just be the edit remark in the bottom of the post.

The one time we won't do this practice is if the post is the first post in a new thread and there have yet to be responses. In that case we'll just move the entire thread if inappropriate.

It's not often that we remove an entire post. We usually try to edit, after first asking the poster to *if they're online*. However, the times we do remove the entire body is usually when editing would completely change the context, it would leave it chopped up or confusing to read, or there's really nothing there to leave that is within guidelines. Again, in this instance, we'll leave a *note*.

I hope that helps with understanding threads and knowing what you're reading is accurate historically.

With respect,

KD

Many thanks to all the NT admin for your understanding in this matter, I am most grateful for your perception and for giving thought to finding a working solution so quickly.

I believe your solution will go a very long way to giving both transparency to mod actions and history (yes, good word, exactly so) to overall threads. This in turn will give a much clearer understanding of threads when post removals are made.

I applaud you for, as ever, listening well.

We are lucky to have all of you working with us and for the betterment of the NT forums.

Thanks a bunch :Tip-Hat:

all the best!

(((Artist))) Aren't these guys the best?

I read with interest and agree with you. It's confusing when a post is edited. I was wondering if we, ourselves, can delete our own posts, but I don't think so?

I remember a couple of times myself editing my own posts which completely threw people off later on in the thread. You can get confused as to what everyone is talking about after an original thread has been altered.

I like the idea of the powers-that-be leaving a reason for an edit or removal of a post.

Only problem is when we ourselves edit our posts and throw the rest of the thread off, but it happens!

Thanks for bringing it up.

Again, Doc John and the mods here are so awesome. I knew they wouldn't leave you hanging out there to dry, and I am SO GLAD you aren't leaving. The place just wouldn't be the same!

:hug:

but...it doesn't take MUCH to cornfucious doody!! ;)

cool beans, mods. :cool:

:p :p :p

I know I'm coming in late on this, I've been on vacation! :D
Artist, thanks for bringing this up, and mods, thanks working on a solution. I have, in the past, received an email notification of a post, gone to the thread, and not found the post. The ones I remember from recently, I can well understand why they would have been edited or removed, whether by a mod or the poster, since they were, well, virulent, is about the best word I can come up with. But it definitely made it odd, having received the emailed post that then turns out not to be there. Rather like the poem:
Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd go away.

Having some kind of acknowledgement in the thread will definitely get rid of the problem of the "man who wasn't there."
Hugs,