What worries me about B12 supplementation
 

You know what worries me about B12 supplementation?

I've been noticing so many people talking about their B12 levels as shown on tests, levels that are above 1500 even 2000.

I get the impression that many people who have been tested and have shown these levels are concerned and that they and their doctors feel the levels are too high.

So, I want to say that from my experience, I learned from the notes I regularly kept about my symptoms, test results and shots, that I become depressed when my B12 level goes below 900.

And I know, I mean I am very sure that if I were tested my B12 level would be much higher than 2000 because I have so many shots...

I keep mentioning that one doctor of mine prescribed a year's worth of B12 shots. Lucky for me. (Though I was never sure whether it was a maths error or not.)

What worries me, is not the high results that some people get in their B12 tests, but that there are no studies done of people who are enduring bad diseases and take B12...

I feel it is a lot like when all the heart studies were done on men, and women got that therapy whether it suited or not. And it mostly didn't.

I feel sure that I continue to need a lot more B12 because I have an ongoing infection, because I have nerve damage from the tetanus, because I had pretty horrible peripheral neuropathy before I got tetanus, etc.

And, I feel pretty certain that all the B12 shots I have put a lot of B12 into my blood, and a little of that works its way into my muscle and nerve sheaths.

I don't think we can rely on one-dose-for-all supplementation.

I think we all need to keep little booklets of our symptoms, supplements, and test levels.

Then we need to review them and see what they show us about ourselves.

What is good for one person may not be good for another.

Not everyone needs B12... and I'm beginning to think that B12 needs some sort of extra protein, like the Whey amino acids, before it can really do the healing we want from it...

http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co...alNetwork.html

:)
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It's true that some of the better lab ranges don't even have an upper number. They recognize that there is no such thing as too much, but there is a big problem with too little.

The body definitely needs its protein, other B vitamins, E, iron, etc., in order to function as well as it can, and it drawns on extra resources when attempting to repair.

So, it is a very good idea to cover all safe and reasonable nutrients if not absolutely sure they are getting through in the diet. For example, if a person malabsorbs iron (likely that there is some level of malabsorption of iron if B12 is being malabsorbed), then that person (after testing of ferritin) might do well to take iron. Iron is one of those things likely to be drawn on heavily for repairs. But it should never be taken without testing.

Not everyone needs B12. Absolutely. Those with symptoms, who might benefit, are lucky that only too little is damaging.

rose

I just want to add that keeping notes for ourselves is of the utmost importance, since not everyone is the same.

While 1000mcg of B12 may be perfect for one person, a younger person who is relatively healthy may thrive on 250mcg.

For me, with the severe depletion of my stores, probably related to the fact my mother had pernicious anemia, a B12 shot a month was helpful... but nowhere near as healthful as when the holistic M.D. I saw gave me a prescription for a B12 shot a day for a year.

Notes on your own condition and the changes in it in relation to specific symptoms that could be related to low B12 are your best bet to understanding your condition and improving it... if your condition is related to low B12.

And because nerves are at the bottom of a lot of health problems... low B12 contributes to a lot of ill health.

So, Take Notes!!!!!!!

:)

A healthy person who has no reason to suspect malabsorption can do just fine on diet (as long as they are not a vegan) and with a multivitamin as insurance.

People who have symptoms or are over 50 should consider at least 1000 mcg at a time, because some degree of malabsorption is common by that time. Less than 1000 is not recommended if any degree of malabsorption is present, because it may progress to severe malabsorption due to true pernicious anemia (lack of intrinsic factor).

In my opinion 250 mcg is not a very good dose. It certainly won't hurt someone without malabsorption, but it is way more than a person without severe malabsorption needs, yet it is not enough for a person with severe malabsorption to build stores or even be certain of getting any benefit at all.

Yes, nutrients and notes, if for no other reason than "just in case."

rose

Boy, I so think that "over 50" as the medical community insists, is not helpful to people who are much younger and suffering the effects of malabsorption.

I talk to so many people in stressful jobs, and tell them to look at their fingernails for ridges... many in stressful jobs find that they have ridges... they say they are going to get Methylcobalamin lozenges... but I never know how it goes because they tend to be techs and support people in different businesses, so I seldom talk to the same person twice.

Because I have found, in my experience, that stress depletes B12 -- or maybe what it does is interfers particularly badly with absorption -- I think that many people well below the age of 50 need supplementation...

and, if their symptoms are severe, I would recommend that they try something more like a 5mg Methylcobalamin lozenge a few times a day... keeping notes to see what happens over a month...

http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co...B12-Level.html

:)

Of course many people under 50 need B12. I know people in their 20s who've incurred much damage because so much of the medical community is so ignorant.

As I suggested in my former post. I hope all noticed that the "or" was bolded:

People who have symptoms or are over 50 should consider at least 1000 mcg at a time, because some degree of malabsorption is common by that time.

It is certainly possible that nail health will be impaired with deficiency and improve with B12 treatment. But nail condition cannot diagnose or rule out B12 deficiency.

rose

For me, no one symptom of low B12 should be the end all on the subject.

For me, ridges on my nails were especially wide and raised and I had no moons on most of my fingernails when I was suicidal and depressed and had a lot of peripheral neuropathy pain as well as extreme pain in the bones of my legs.

I have observed that as I had B12 replacement, all of my symptoms reduced.

Therefore, to me, the way that people's fingernails look may be a clue to their need for B12.

Hopefully it's been a helpful clue for many.

I'm always delighted to visit a new forum and see people talking about how because of ridges on their fingernails they went out and got B12... I sure wish I'd been clearer earlier on about how Methylcobalamin is the best form to get.

Still, some B12 is probably better than none, only if there are severe symptoms of low B12, then a tiny bit won't do much good and I'm afraid the person will give up for lack of appreciable results.

:)

Absolutely. No one symptom can diagnose or rule out B12 deficiency. And fingernails are a good thing to pay attention to, as many correctible problems can be pointed to by their condition.

Here's a couple of helpful sites:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nai...=false&ISAGG=0

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040315/1417.html

rose

This has little to do with b12 but will ask here. I heard people who don't absorb fat can have pn issues. I'm wondering though now I do if after 12 years of being malnurished with little dietary fat could still be effecting now but just doesn't show? How and what would be helpful? This past years since I got healthier let me tell you how thick my hair is and my skin is not so dry and grey. I do wonder though the intrernal issues though my bllod work is good though high liver and low white blood count. I'm one of the high b12 people with 1500-2000 range. Actually on the b12 note since I am 29 would the need be different? I don't get it what you mean over 50 is there different levels for different people. Also I know b complex has other b vitamins but why is it needed? Lastly I thought a lot of the nail issue is from calcium? Ok now enough.Thanks so much

Hi,

Not different levels for different ages. Malabsorption is the issue I was referring to. Although people of any age can develop (or even be born with) B12 malabsorption, as people age their bodies tend to not absorb or metabolize things as well. And since B12 is especially tricky for the body to absorb and use (must do a lot of things right, and the molecule is large), even if a person has no symptoms it is a very good idea to at least take a multi-vitamin.

Actually, for even better insurance, I think it would be an excellent idea for people with no symptoms to take that multi-vitamin and an occasional 1000 mcg dose of B12. That would prevent any damage in many, many people.

And, of course, if a person has health problems, I would go with at least 1000 mcg. at a time.

Omega 3 fat is very important. In the usual diet of today Omega 3 is sadly lacking. I would get a very good brand of fish oil (can also get it with extra EPA and DHA, which help prevent more problems). Good fat is very important for nerve health.

A B complex is a good idea because some do not get enough of one or more of the other B vitamins in the diet, and rarely there is malabsorption. The B complex usually is insurance to make sure they are all there in good quantities.

Many thing can affect the health and appearance of nails. It is interesting to explore the sites I linked to in my previous post. It's been a while since I've read about nails and don't have any calcium info regarding nails on the tip of my tongue.

Good questions.

rose

Thanks Rose. I guess since I feel there is a missing link in my dx and I heard a big help in recovery is finding the underlying issur or cause. Now though I'm healthy now you can't take away 12 years of abuse to the body so am really looking into that. When I googled this issue a lot came up about gastric bypass and people who don't absorb fat and something about vitamin e. I try to get adequate now but I'm not sure about vitamin e. The B12 and b complex for me is a confusion since my levels and most docs seem to day stop for me. Though one said stop fish oil too which makes no sense since all others said to take always. I do take a good multi,magnesium,calcium with d and my glucosamine msn. On a lighter note has anyone tried acupuncture? I really think you should write a book Rose. Have you ever seen that natural cure guy on the tv? Do you have a degree or this is all just what you learned? In any regards thank you.

Most docs do not know anything about B12 beyond myths of the 1950s. You must learn and trust yourself on this one issue.

I hope you do not ever ignore B12 for long. If it was the problem and you have refilled stores and gotten rid of symptoms, that is great. But, if it was the problem you will almost certainly become deficient again if you don't either keep it up or take a lot periodically.

People who malabsorb severely can go years (and years), but subtle damage occurs before symptoms.

People who malabsorb severely and store well generally begin having symptoms again within about two years. Those who store less well, much sooner.

I was an instructor in a nearby college when the damage progressed to producing many serious problems and became disabling. After my diagnosis, I thought the doctors who had seen me were especially bad, but after much study I learned to distinguish bad information from good and learned that most doctors are ignorant on this issue.

I have worked to help others since then, individually, on a couple of boards, through medical editors who are not too busy protecting their precious egos to correct their publications, and informing medical people I come into contact with otherwise.

Best to you. :)

rose

Yes, people tend to associate fingernails with calcium...

the thing is that when someone is low on B12, then the moons begin to disapear and ridges begin to form... so looking at your nails can be helpful if you have several symptoms that are associated not only with low B12 but also other things.

In terms of your B12 level... remember that if the test was done by means of measuring the amount of B12 in your blood, then it is not telling you how much you have in your muscle and other tissue.

B12 needs to be in all of our tissue for us to be well.

As we age stress depletes B12 (at least for me... I've kept notes, and they show beyond a doubt that I lose B12 when there's stress...) I supposed I don't "lose" it, I think it's more like I use it up.

So, if you think about the amount of stress in someone's life, then you can see that one person might have at age 16 the amount of stress another person might not have accumulated until age 45... it just all depends.


:)

Hello ConsiderThis, I have a question about nails. I was just on your site looking at the picture of your nails. The one posted on Dec. 29, 2006 late p.m. looks alot like mine. My question is about the the red area on just above the moon. Mine are alot darker on my thumbs, although I have it on all me fingers. Does that red area mean there is an infection in your body or is it somthing else?
Thanks Cat

Here is a very informative article about nails.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040315/1417.html

rose

You know, I'm beginning to think that it does correspond to infection.

When I got my camera, I got the one with the Lieca lense because on dpreview it showed that it was about the best for showing details.

But there was another camera which showed red better... so I almost got that one.

I didn't in the end, and consequently I can't really show the red lines very well.

Do you have any vitamin C? You may have said, and I've forgotten.

When I take vitamin C, the reddish lines lessen.

When the reddish lines are most distinct I tend to be the most tired.

I know that stress makes the infection around my old dental implants worse... and when I can feel it being uncomfortable, the reddish lines tend to be most distinct.

They were very bad when I had tetanus, but my camera then wasn't very good at all.

If you have reddish lines, try taking some vitamin C with a lot of water.

I'm hugely tall, so I take 3grams about 4 or five times a day.

I used to take 30 grams a day, in ten gram increments.

But I think the smaller amount more often with more water is working...

I just have to avoid stress...


and I know you are under a lot of stress right now with all these pending health diagnosis... (I can't spell today, sorry)

I think the Splinter Hemmorhage thing... darn my spelling today... is a part of why there can be reddish lines under nails...

When I had a lot of Metronidazol to kill the clostridia that was causing my tetanus, it also reduced the wideness and the intensity of the red lines, especially the one on my right thumb which was the worst. There was a red blotch at the top of the line that was about the size of a lentil...

That same location is where I'm having the most indication of an infection now, and I know from the periodontist that I have an infection around my old dental implants.

I had surgery scheduled twice which I had to cancel because of court things. Then after that I didn't have a reliable ride... the city rides had left me waiting outside in the cold after I voted for so long that I was really sick again when I got home... and for a long time thereafter...