Peripheral vs Demyelinating Neuropathy
 

Greetings to Everyone

I'm a new kid on the block and hopefully no one will mind if I jump out and ask few questions.

Hoping that someone can help me understand the differences, if there are any, between Peripheral Neuropathy and Sensory Motor Demyelinating Neuropathy.

An EMG/NCV on 02/27/06 indicated, among other things, that I had Peripheral Neuropathy ... and the same test on 06/06/07, by another doc, reported the Sensory Motor Demyelinating Neuropathy findings.

Have been bothered by low back pain and leg pain for years ... and then, out of the blue, these neuropathies pop up. Not sure, but maybe it's because these are the first such tests I've ever had. Anyway, the left leg pain is now so severe that I'm unable to walk or stand on it. So far, I haven't got a lot of help or advise from the doctors.

Any response would be appreciated.

gerry

Hi Gerry,

First of all I should tell you that I don't think of tests as the end-all word on things.

Losing the myelin sheath on nerves tends to result in pain.

If you were to start taking a B12 vitamin, in the Methylcobalamin form and in a lozenge, then it would give your body the material to rebuild the myelin sheath on your nerves. If you decide to try that (and it's not toxic, that is to say that B12 is not toxic) then get the 5mg ones because they give faster results. Also, maybe you should also take some Whey amino acids... I recently read a study saying that protein was needed to rebuilt the sheaths... http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co...alNetwork.html

Basically, I had pretty horrid pain in my right thigh... which is mostly resolved after a LOT of B12 shots.

Only when there's stress then I don't know what happens, maybe stress eats the myelin sheath, but in any case, the pain starts to come back...

so I'm in a foul mood because of legal things when the courts have behaved in a completely corrupt manner.

Sorry.

The things I wrote about B12 are good...

Gerry, the nerve is sort of like an elctrical cord. It has a ecentral axon, surrounded by a myelin sheath that acts like the insulation on a wire. Newropathies can involve the axon, the sheath, or both. Nerves also carry either sensory messages to and from the brain or motor messeages telling our muscles to move. Damage to sensory nerves causes pain and numbness, damage to motor nerves causes weakness. So it sounds like you have damage to both types of nerves, and both components of the nerves. There can be many reasons for this, and your doctors will have to look at your hisory and test findings to figure it all out. It will be important for you to follow through with this as the diagnosis will determine the treatment. I am sorry you are not feeling supported by your doctors. It is important to find a doctor you can talk to and who will help you manage your pain, as there are many things that can be done. I hope you will find one.

Hi Gerry... and welcome.
 

Neuropathy is a symptom of another underlying illness. About 2 and a half years ago I had an autoimmune attack to my nervous system,and consequentally have neuropathy now.

But way before that happened, I had pretty severe back troubles, and I remember loosing feeling in my legs,burning,pins and needles,and extreme pain. This would also be neuropathy,although at the time I had no idea that these symptoms had there own name. I have herniated discs that had to be cut back to make room for the nerve roots that were being pinched by these discs. After my operation, I had normal sensation in my legs again.

It sounds as if your troubles could also at least in part be associated with your back,and aggrivated nerve roots. You said that you have had lower back symtoms for years. Have you seen an orthopedic or had an MRI,CT scan? Do you have a back condition?

Gerry welcome....
 

Here is a web site that explains what a neuro should do and what tests could follow....depending on what or where the problems seem to be. www.neuroexam.org

I'd also suggest that you look up www.lizajane.org as well. This site has been put together by other posters here and other places to outline, then keep track of any tests you might have and it helps you keep your records up-to-date so you can 'remember' what all happened months and at times years ago.

I hope these help and please be sure to ask questions! - j

Hello
 

And welcome and PLEASE if your not happy or feel supportive of your
Dr. Then look for a neurologist who specializes in Polyneurpaths,they
are out there and the best of luck. Sue

The only thing wrong with the little "Thanks" thing, is that it seems to stop conversation...

:(

Hi Gerry and welcome to this forum,
Peripheral just means the outer extremities like your hands or your feet.

Motor nerves, the larger nerves are responsible for our movements

Sensory are the nerves responsible for sensation throughout the body.

Demyelinating means the loss of the myelin sheath that covers the nerve cells.

Just to add to the good advise already posted, i would definatly try to get on to a neuro the specializes in neuropathy, this way you will have a better chance of finding the cause as there are many ,many causes, on the front page of this forum and up top you will see the " Stickies " there is a lot of good info there,well worth reading, with this disease the more you know the better, there is a lot you can do to help yourself and if your not sure of anything just ask here.
good luck
Brian :)

The "Thanks" thing
 

I apologize for just using the little "Thanks" thing ... but I was hoping it would suffice until I could get a better handle on how these forums work.

For example, do I answer each individual response ... or wait and post one, probably rather lengthy message, covering all the great advise & suggestions offered by the responders? Also, is there a place where one can post a profile to list his (or her) medical history?

Again, thanks to you all for your interest ... I'll try to get up to speed soon.

gerry

Hi Gerry

Just look for the advice you need and I sincerely hope you find some that helps you.

By all means use the “thanks” icon whenever you wish – after all that is what it’s there for. People appreciate that you have read their posting and hope you may have benefited from it. It in no way stops conversation, assuming that the conversation is appropriate to the problem that you (or anyone else) has posted.

Sorry I personally can’t help answer your problem but I just wanted to answer your doubts about the thanks icon.

I do hope you are soon feeling better :)


Tony

The Thanks button is great...

Only I like to actually see what someone thinks, besides the gratefulness.

You can do either... one long post or a post to each person who has answered.

I think the more active a forum the more interesting it is. So I like posts to individuals. But that's me.

I really think that the Thanks button helps the moderators the most, since they can use it and the poster doesn't feel totally ignored.

But on many things, I think the beauty of these forums is that you can get so many perspectives, and so much support.

Sometimes the least little post will be the one with the puzzle piece I'd been missing, so I think encouraging more posts is better.

(((((((((Gerry))))))))

I'm really glad you joined! :)

I've been on these boards for years and I never knew about the Thanks button.

Only recently found out. I think it's terrific.

Melody

I still prefer actual sets of words... new messages...

besides, the thanks doesn't show up on the index... so if I look to see if anyone replied, there's no way to know that someone said Thanks...

:)

How are ya?????

:)

Wow, I just realized that the moods don't stop after "Blah"

lol

so much for my inquiring mind!

Just a note of clarification on peripheral nerves. The first ones thought of are those of hands and feet. But peripheral nerves are all nerves beyond the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord), and at least in some cases the optic.

Registering an opinion on the "Thanks for that" feature. I haven't noticed it stopping conversation. I haven't used it, but I can see at least one good use for it: sometimes one wants to indicate gratitude for the post but has nothing to add.

rose

Add me to the group
 

I personally like the thanks. I could see where gerrym is on a learning curve and trying to go from post to post without interrupting the flow of information. I like the thanks button when a group is wishing you a good day, a happy birthday, etc. and you are going to be repetitive with your answers to each person. The thanks button lets you individually thank each person for their comment and then you can post one message with a thanks to the group but then you know that each person knows their post has been noticed if you use the thanks button. Please do not feel that you need to apologize for using the "thanks" button.

And I think that was as clear as mud, right? I think it is pretty much a group vote for the "thanks button". O.K.?

And welcome gerrym. This is a friendly group with a lot of knowledge to give you. For the most part we all get along well. I know the group has been very loving and giving to me. I'm appreciative for the answers and support I get from here. If you feel comfortable with sharing it, perhaps a little more of your medical history would allow us to give you more information to help in your search for the cause of your problems.

Billye

I'm sorry you're feeling crappy, Billye.

Yes, I see where the thanks button comes in handy, I just prefer more messages of an individual nature.


:)

The thanks is a great idea, especially for a learner as they are just gathering up facts and it is a lot to swallow first up and it's just an acknowledgement that the reciever is thankfull for your reply but hasn't yet got much to reply about other than thanks.
I have seen so many times were some people have put in a lot in their answers but the poster doesn't even acknowledge them and will skip a few posters and only answer one or sometimes knowbody, now that is straight out rudeness in my book, a simple " thanks to all " at the end is really appreciated.

Does the thanks button do "Thanks to all"

?????

In terms of not answering... when I was new to forums I used to not be able to find my way back, and I didn't understand how to get instant notifications.

So it wasn't really "rudeness" -- it was disability.

But I take your points. :)

Neuropathy or Radiculopathy or Both?
 

First of all to "Consider This" and "Rose" regarding their suggestions of using vitamin B12 to rebuild the myelin sheath ... hadn't heard of this before, and wasn't really sure what the myelin sheath was either. So thanks for the tip.

Unfortunately, I do have to be careful with supplements. For example, have been taking Glucosamine Chondroitin for years and recently found they are counterproductive for people with advanced prostate cancer ... And while on the subject ... Some of you suggested I post some of my medical history. So here's more than you probably ever wanted to know:

In 1993, I was first diagnosed with PCa and had a series of 33 EBRT (External Beam Radiation Treatments). All went fairly well until Jan of 2001 when my cancer returned, and I was told it was in the advanced stage. At that time there wasn't a whole lot of treatment options available, so I went on ADT (Androgen Deprivation Treatment). This is nothing more than a female hormone that attacks and kills the male testosterone. (I'll leave it at that) This treatment continues to this date with some modifications.

Prior to Jan of 1997, I had some minor aches and pains in the back and legs but didn't give it a lot of thought. But on 01/10/97, and after a TURP (Transurethral Prostatectomy) where an epidural injection (anesthetic) was used, if you can believe this, I started having severe back and right leg pain. Nothing was made of the incident but it did lead to a laminectomy at the L4 L5 area due to pinched nerves. The leg got better but there was no improvement in the back.

As time passed the pain returned and became more severe, and again started radiating down the legs, but more so on the left side.

The latest MRI, (05/22/06) indicated there was severe bilateral neural foraminal narrowing and severe central canal stenosis in the L4-L5. Also, there is mention of degenerative anterolisthesis, disk space narrowing, disk desiccation, annular bulge and marked ligamentous and facet hypertrophy. Most of these conditions were mentioned in the other lumbar areas, but to a lesser degree.

Over the years the docs have wanted to do surgery ... then they haven't wanted to do surgery. We've had PTs, saw Chiropractors, had several series of Epidurals, all kinds of drugs and you name it, and nothing has worked. (This story sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

Anyway, and as mentioned before, the first mention of PN came from an EMG/NCV on 02/20/06 which also showed acute neuropathic changes in an S1 nerve root distribution on the left as well as chronic neuropathic changes in an L4 nerve distrbution on the left all consistent with an acute S1 radiculopathy and chronic L4 radiculopathy on the left side. Whew!!

And what blows my mind, is the 2nd EMG/NCV (06/06/07) shows SMDN but the doc added .... "NO evidence of lumbosacral radiculopathy on either side." Now how can that be?

At the present time, and since the last set of epidurals failed, the only option offered by the Pain Clinic is the "Spinal Cord Stimulation Implant." Don't know a whole lot about it but I've been told it may interfere with future MRIs and Scans my oncologist might need to run. Guess I'll need to talk with her and then find a Neurologist like some of you have suggested.

At this time, I'm totally confused and have so many questions ... Like, is this spinal cord stimulation a procedure used to treat PN or just for the spine problems, and will it work? How does one differentuate between the pain caused by PN and the pain caused by spinal problems? How can two EMGs, only 18 months apart, be so different? ... And what is causing this PN and what can be done about the pain? And, I know it isn't, but in the back of my mind there's a nagging doubt that it may be connected to cancer.

But enough of my ramblings for now!

Sorry I wasn't able (at this point, anyway) to comment on everyone's advise and suggestions, but Thank you all for your input.

gerry

Gerry, Understand all of the frustrations...
 

as I've a cancer friend who's helped me w/THAT, and I with the neuropathies. We share in a somewhat symbiotic relationship as we both learn from each other?
For me the neuropathy came first, then the cancer. Fortunately mine was contained, tho whether the Nuropathy's were caused by the cancer or not related is not determined, as, unfortunately treatment for EACH is, essentially THE SAME FOR EACH!!! Surprisingly, many, many of the advances in learning about neuropathies are due to a bunch of smart, and vocal cancer patients? Yet, some docs [ocons] don't have a full knowledge or complete up-to-date knowledge on the AFFECTS of chemo to the nervous system. Conversely many neuros haven't a clue about chemo other than treating the results....meaning the nerve damages.
All I can ask you is, were you really warm or cold during either the first or second set of nerve conduction tests? Reason I ask [believe I'd posted it about 6 months ago] is a paper written by the head of an area neuro dept here that indicates tests can come out INCORRECT due to YOU being too hot or cold....Temperature and nerve conduction varies during hot or cold times!

Here is a site all about what are called 'Toxic Neuropathies' -Chemo is one of them: http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/NEUROMUSC...ther/toxic.htm

Ask questions away after trying to figure this one out...I believe you WILL see some things there that will give you clues....If you want more references, I can find them....Hang in there! - j

Karen, the thanks button is new to me too, but i am 100% sure it only thanks under the post, what i meant was a simple " thank you to all " in a post, just to acknowledge those you replied to their question, i am sure you follow my drift.
What i don't understand is how could anyone find a forum, register, and work out how to post on a subject but didn't have the abilty to see the reply button :confused:

Well, Gerry, you've hit upon one of the great mysteries of neuropathic symptoms--
 

--do they stem from spinal damge, from damage to nerves farther down the periphery, or both.

The problem is, the exact same neural symptoms can stem from damage to peripheral vs. spinal damage--although, technically, damage to the nerve ROOTS from spinal stenosis/arthritis is radiculopathy (from the Latin for "root"), which is simply a subcategory of peripheral neuroapthy, which, as Rose suggests, involves any sort of damage not to the brain or spinal cord proper.

You would not be the first person around here to have both spinal problems and peripheral neuropathy problems contributing to symptoms, though. There is even the "double-cursh phenomenon", in which a given nerve pathway may be impacted both at the root level and farther down the periphery, and while neither insult individually might result in symptoms, taken together enough of the signal is disrupted to cause them.

This is why the search for the causes of neural symptoms is often a long, expensive process of elimination, and may not yield definitive results--especially when it comes to EMG/nerve conduction studies, which, as Dahlek notes, may well depend on the temperature in the room (this has a marked effect on nerve conduction) as well as the electrode-placing and intepretive skills of the tester.

You mention a few terms early on. You now know about "peripheral neuropathy" versus "radiculopathy"; "axonal" refers to damage to the nerve fibers themselves--the axons--and "demyelinating" to damage or stripping of the meyling sheathing surrounding the larger sensory and all motor nerves. One can have "primarily demyelinating" damage that allows the axon to be exposed to problems, or "primarily axonal" damage that results in demyelination from the inside out. Small-fiber neuropathy--damage to fibers that subsume the sensations of pain and temeperature--is by definition axonal, as these fibers are so thin they do not have myelin coverings. You may also see terms like "mononeuropathy" vs. "polyneuropathy"--one nerve versus many.

I suspect you have effects both from the chemotherpay and your lower spine--and your chemo regimen may well have contributed to/exacerbated your lower spine deterioration.

Okay... chronologically: you come, register for a big forum... then you find topics and write things and then you go do the dishes or something.

If your memory is really bad, you may not remember how you found the big forum.

If you remember that you found it, then you may be able to go to your emails and the activation in order to go back to the forum.


When I first began joining forums my memory was so bad that I didn't really remember... the things I had in mind were what I could see. It was very scary.

So, if that's how someone is, or even somewhat like that, then they aren't going to actually be able to go back and see if there are any responses.

If your memory is good, then I'm sure you wouldn't be able to understand how debilitating (socially) it is to not be able to remember.


I'm soooo much better now. But, I still try to remember to sign up for instant notifications... that way I can just click to get back to the topic... I don't have to find it.

See, the other thing with cognitive dysfunction, is that "planning" is really hard when memory is so impaired.

I still can't remember very much at one time... I don't have to keep repeating something in order to be able to do it, but when I have several things to do it's like a wind storm in my mind... it's not clear and it's unsettling.


To me, stress is the worst. It just uses up so much energy... and I think the using up of that energy is what burns up nerves... once the lubricating B12 is gone... that's sort of how I explain it to myself.

The stress is so bad with my condo, given that the courts have denied me due process, that it's sometimes hard for me to justify my continued fight.

I posted a topic in Social with a link to pictures of my condo.

I would love it if people took a look.

Would you?

That's very interesting.

I have a question for you:
When I had my nerve conduction tests they showed that my right leg had the most loss of conduction. (sorry, I forget how to use the words).

But at the same time the toes on my left foot were the most numb and extremely hard to move.

When I asked my neuro about that, wondering why if the symptoms seemed so bad in my toes, they didn't show up more on the tests.

He said it was because in order to measure there have to be two points, and there isn't any point beyond the toes...

Have you any insights? Experience????

I know I have to keep my feet warm, but it's often hard to do since they don't seem to register temp very well any more.

Thanks to everyone for their support and feedback ... your comments have been most helpful and supportive. And a real serendipity!

Dahlek had an interesting question about my last post ... asking whether I was cold or hot during the nerve conduction tests. I hadn't thought about it before, but I was warm during the first test (02/20/06) and it was much cooler during the 06/06/07 test. My wife who, is a real authority on cold temperatures, verified this. Do you think that might explain the differences?

The cancer possibility as a PN cause, is also very interesting. But, so far, I think we've been able to keep the cancer from metastasizing (invading the bones) ... although I'm not sure if that completely eliminates the possibility. The cancer treatment, Hormone Therapy (ADT), is not really considered chemotherapy but it might very well be a factor, since it has numerous side effects, including osteoporosis, muscle atrophy and muscculoskeletal pain. (One of the other side effects is that I now enjoy going shopping with my wife) But seriously, Hormone therapy coupled with the spinal damage might even be more of a factor. But who knows?

Anyway, learning that the same neural symptoms can stem from damage to peripheral as well as from spinal damage, (from Glenntaj and Rose) certainly covered one of my big blind spots.

Like some of you, I also believe that a lot of these docs don't have a clue when it comes to the new techniques and drugs available. I've found this very true in the treatment of my spine problems and in the treatment of my peripheral neuropathy. Either they don't know, don't care, or are too damn busy to answer your questions. And my old uro doc, is a good example of this ... like when he told us there wasn't much more available when my ADT started to fail. Fortunately we found a great medical oncologist who looks like she's getting things straightened out.

Maybe someone can help with this ... I've been trying to talk with someone who has, or is presently using this Spinal Cord Stimulation treatment or maybe find some test material. it's an implant like a pacemaker placed in the lower back with wire running up the spine. Electrical impulses then block pain signals before they reach the brain.

Guess I'd better stop now, it looks like I'm in a rambling again!

There were a lot of other kind words and comments I didn't acknowledge ... but to all of you, thanks so much.

gerry

Gerry, please DO keep in mind...
 

that AS MUCH AS WE would like it, the diseases, the treatments, the medications, the philosophies to approaching any ONE aspect are soo complicated that to find a doc who is up-to-date AND can connect all the dots that cross over disciplines is like looking for needles in haystacks?
What WE can do, is try thru learning of others' experiences good and bad about HOW best to approach any given doc...THEN NOT GIVE UP!
Hot/cold on nerve conduction tests - I'll have to dig up that site and post it again....It's been about 3 months or so...But I for one do know that temp. during the tests does make a difference...My last Nerve conduction test I really complained of cold...doc tried to rub my icecube feet warm...You do NOT rub my feet too much or I want to knock yer block off? I suggested that he get a hand-held hair dryer rather than take the room space heater up onto the table...You get the drift...As for AI's not being 'hormone therapy'? Go to any BC site and see what they have to say....I believe it IS as much a chemical manipulation [falsely presented tho] and any radiation therapy there is...s/e's are similar tho permanent damage is far less [whew!]
I'll refer you via PM about folks who've experience w/the spinal stim stuff...
Consider? Maybe when I post this article things mite make more sense...sure hope so.
Well, my turn to ramble is done - j

I can answer one
 

Dahlek mentioned that she thought the temperature was important. It is. When they did the nerve conduction tests on my hands, they actually had a big pot of water that they warmed to a certain temperature to warm up my hands before they did the tests. The neurologist told me that the temperature must be warm for the tests to be accurate. This test was done at a big medical facility that is a teaching site for doctors. This was done about 2 years ago.

Maybe they are finally teaching the new neuro's that the temperature is important.

Billye

Here the article is?
 

http://www.onecallmedical.com/PDFs/E...0ISSUE%205.pdf

This is a 'local' article written by the head of the neuro dept at George Washington Univ. Hospital Center. I'd found this while checking him out prior to a 'referral' opinion visit. We could actually 'discuss' issues. How convincing I was is yet to be determined. I don't know if we will ever see the 'results' of that discussion for another five years...if/when a paper comes out. Such docs ARE made of publishing tho... - j

I suppose my only comfort[?] was the 'cold' nerve test showed worse things happening [which they were] than a comfy one?

Silverlady - we can always HOPE, or complain that "I'm cold!", even when it to others doesn't seem so...When I'd a recent PET scan for another issue....I warned them I HAD TO BE WARM or I'd shiver too much...their blankie heater had broken, I'm surprised they got any good pics at all...I was one cold-vibrating person! - j

If a persons memory was impaired you would think that the good old pen and paper would come in real handy, i do it myself still, i couldn't possibly remember every site that is important to me, if i didn't use " my favorites" or just dot it down on a bit of paper.
Anyway most sites that you register, you do get an activation number telling you the name of the site and all, all you have to do is open up your emails, if you forget your password or forum name you only have to enter your email address and they send out another, how easy is that ?

This is way off track to what i meant in my post, i am not picking on anyone with a bad memory that's not my style, i was saying that i have seen some of the good people here put a lot of work in their answers to help someone who has asked for help, then no reply,then say 2 weeks or 2 months down the track another post comes in off the same ignorant person and same thing happens again, no answers, no thankyou, nothing at all, that does get to me because these terrific people here are in pain themselves but give their all to try help others out but just get ignored, thankfully it does not happen often.

Oh Gerry, I love your post. What a wonderful attitude.

You unexpectedly made me laugh.

I was thinking about how overwhelmingly serious things were when you made me laugh.

Gosh, I admire you.

:)

Just yesterday I joined a forum to get the cards for Dahlek, and discovered I was already a member.

I take it you don't have memory problems to speak of.

Else I think you would know that while writing things down is great, you still have to organize all the notes or you can't find what you need, and after a while, remembering what you took notes on is ... well, it isn't.

I'm unclear why you are so into this. Did I fail to thank you at some point?

Hey Karen...that is what I have always called....
 

A MEDICAL MOMENT?, easy to blame it on the meds, rather than the underlying condition or...well, anything? The med thing is the BEST for all social circumstances unless it's a driving or DUI issue...as in driving under meds....Then it gets squirrelly...
Just be careful out there...and all that! Ya know? - j

As for 'memory'...Did I have one of those? Can I recall where I put it? Is that near my green sweater? - DUH - you got the drift... Yep, 'medical moment'....best excuse ever for lots of well, STUFF!

And i am unclear why you choose to blame bad memory or disability for all those jerks that don't bother to acknowledge any of our members answers who have put in a lot of their energy into really trying to help that person asking the question/s, in my book that is rude/ignorant, and that's all i am on about.

My memory has improved on the methyl B-12
 

Now I'm not talking about a giant improvement here. But I have had major prolems for years with short term memory loss. I just can't keep a thought in my head for more than 10 seconds and when I call the insurance company, I have to write down my insurance number.

Well imagine my surprise when yesterday, I call up Blue Cross Blue Shield, and they said "please put in your 8 digit number, forget any letters, just the numbers, followed by the pound sign.

I looked on the wall in the opposit direction of the phone, I glanced at the numbers, I knew them, I turned around, I inputted them in the phone, pressed the pound sign, then it prompted me for birthdate and year. I did it in two seconds flat, followed by the pound sign.

I'm telling you, I haven't been this quick in ages.

So what ever the B-12 methyl is doing to my feet, it's also doing it to my brain.

Hope it continues. Want to feel like a kid again.

Bye for now.

Melody

Wow!!! that is great Melody, might have to up my Cynocobalamin & Hydroxocobalamin, you lucky people that can get Methyl', i am jealous :D :D

Do you think that having my mood as Confused... that it could be coming out of the computer and making me confused.... I need that twilight zone music to play in the background as you read this....

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo Confused. I'm trying to work on this appeal brief and the part I'm at is a mishmash... I hate to admit it's a mishmash and skip over it, I think the lawyers would have a hey!day with that.

Loved your post. Made me smile. :)

Thanks.

Well, I'm changing my mood! Right now!

....

waiting for it...

I've changed my mood.

waiting for it...

am I feeling fine?????

Possibly so. :)

Hmmmm.

speaking from experience, for myself, not for them...

:)

Hey, I'm feelin' fine!

Here's another thing (I've come back to add this)
even if the person it was written for or to doesn't say thanks, it doesn't really matter because it could be someone totally different who reads the post and it makes sense to them and hits home and makes all the difference in the world to them.

Here's a story to illustrate what I mean... years ago I used to go to Las Vegas (sometimes on a vision quest) and a slot attendant once made a telling remark. She said that she often saw people get tied to one machine. They would put in ten dollars and then when they didn't win they would feel the machine owed them and put in another hundred and still not win, and feel they were robbed.

But just a few machines away a completely different machine was paying, and so were other machines all over.

So if the person had just moved on, they would have come to one of the machines that was paying...

(I sure wish I remembered that when I get tied into things...

Maybe I can use this to escape the mishmash in my brief that was in my brief requested by the court and in my docketing statement...

I can feel myself slipping the bonds of the mishmash....

Happiness!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I'm free!!!!!!

Thank you Brian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Melody, I totally LOVE it!!!!!

:)

Karen, i wish you would had said that in the beginning and i agree if anyone else benefits out the post it is a real bonus and i am really happy for them as you have probably noticed yourself, the knowledge some of our members have., is just unreal, if it wasn't for these same people i wouldn't be enjoying the good health i am fortunate to have now.

As far as pokie machines go, well, i have a friend that is a computor tech' and he told me that he once got one job working at a pokie venue and he said if anyone seen how they are programed you wouldn't go anywere near them, its only pure luck if you win, the odds are really stacked against you, you would have to be a real dill to take them seriuosly.
anyway got some thing to do, all the best
Brian :)