John
 

Off side remark, did you get the letters?

Now to the question I would like to ask.

Would it be possible to put in the forums some of the old postings that we ourselves wrote as far back as the nineties for remembrance. I have found a great deal of them and they are very interesting to read. Some are quite poignant as some of those members have passed on and some have just given up on this venue for communication. But there is a lot of information that could bring a cohesion to some of us that have lost contact because of the loss of information from the past.

Sort of like a homecoming picnic if I am not being too childish in my thoughts about doing this.

Anyway what do you and the mods and the members think about this. It could keep those who are drifting right now anchored once again or am I just wishfull thinking. In any account


What say you all?

hi Thelma

we would need for DocJohn to reply to this as his would be the decision.

I know that whatever may be decided here, BT has copyright I believe to any posts made there soooooooooooooooooooo how that applies to wayback stuff, hmmmm I dont know and again, this would be a decision for Doc to make as to whether it would be ok here

We have tried to be very understanding of our collective BT roots here, and I know how much many of the old posts mean to members. I am still devastated by the loss of the last database a year ago as there was sooooo much valuable info, including my own related to my son's progress and also something I had put my heart into daily for 3 years on the Encouragement thread in Sanctuary :( .....but........... wow NT's First anniversary is around the corner :p

anyway,I think let's all just wait for Doc's input on this before we begin copying and posting stuff...the BT copyright should be considered till we hear on the status of the older posts and copyright etc

:)

I understand all of that this was to ask if possible and if anyone wanted it that's all as I am more interested in if it would make the members feel upset if some of those who posted had passed away such as in the Als forum.

That is why I posted it to John as first opinion needed.

sorry...thought input from all was asked.

we will wait for DocJohn to comment.

The copyright question--
 

--in cyberspace is actually a very interesting one.

There's still not a real consensus, for example, as to who "owns" copyright on a forum post--the forum or the individual who posted, especially if said individual can prove s/he had a copy previously, which was then posted on the forum.

The lack of consensus is despite what may be a forum's Terms of Service.

It will be interesting to see how this develops over time, especially in the realm of blogs and/or intellectual property (i.e., self-produced videos that show up first on You Tube).

As far as I know all the hasty pastry posts from a certain date (and I'd have to find that date it was added 'cause I don't know it off the top of my head - obviously not top priority in my head) are covered by Creative Commons License.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/.../2.0/legalcode

Edited to add the url I meant to post: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/

Frankly I've never understood Creative Commons despite having read it a dozen times.

I think there are situations where it is appropriate (a special sticky post in SOS forum comes to mind), and I think there are situations where it is not appropriate.

I would really dislike seeing mass copying of threads and posts. That's already happened here in the past on one forum and it involved a thread with mulitple posts from people who would never know that their words had been copied over here without their permission.

So, my personal opinion is that this matter be treated with extreme care and caution.

:)

chemar

don't take it wrong just wanted your opinion, personal opinion. and John of course has the final one.

Did you call yourself Chemar on BT.

yes Thelma

I have always been "Chemar" on BT although I dont post there anymore.

I do just want to post a note of caution on these old posts....we are already having to edit some because PEOPLE'S EMAIL ADDRESSES are showing on them and being copied and posted.

I still feel we need to wait for DocJohn's directive before posting these....
but especially want to request that anyone posting them here MUST please edit out the email addys and any other personal information on other people.
Mods really arent going to have the time to start reading thru pages of these posts to have to protect people's personal information...

updating

it is also important NOT to post other people's writings at this time until we hear from DocJohn on his directive for these posts....if any are to be copied and posted here, they should be the OP posting their own posts, NOT someone else's

thanks

Boy...I don't know. I can see posting old stuff of my own, but I'd be very uncomfortable about copying an old thread or post done by someone else. There may be reason that they don't appreciate it.

For instance, if someone else took a post of mine from BT that they thought were interesting, it might be something I would not want to have copied.

Then again...I really don't care. :D Whatever Doc John thinks is best is all good for me. He rocks with his infinite wisdom in running boards. :Bow:

exactly Doody and this is already happening so we are really asking members to please put a hold on this until we know how we are going to allow it

We certainly want to preserve the posting record and arent in any way trying to stop that from being done...many here have a very looooong history on the old boards and even going through to today's BT and NT and so we are very understanding and supportive of that.

But

there are MANY ramifications from this, from copyright to people's personal wishes over their old posts as well as the problem with so much personal info, like email addys being in those old posts....people arent realising when they copy these posts and paste them here that the personal email addys of others are showing, along with THEIR posts!
That is something we really cant do

anyway

we will wait for Doc to come on when he has investigated this fully and he will give his directive

:)

Shakes head at Doody who is once again sucking up to the admin. :D

Well, I have such mixed emotions about old BT. I logged into the old SOS forum (thanks to someone who posted those urls) and it saddened me because I missed so many people who were apart of our family there..to the best of my knowledge only dear Pter has passed away so there is hope that the others will find us.

I'm pretty sure that trying to copy and paste will just confuse people, unless it's strictly informational, ie: meds, symptoms...etc.

Hi Alfie

I can't see putting any of the medical information or treatments on here from there unless I had far far more medical training than I or anyone else I know does. It would not be ethical and subject to the law where I am sure some sort of charge would lie.

I probably should not have even suggested it but this is really a shadow of BT and it's status as an entity on it's own is a stickey wicket at best.

Stupid i guess............and don't even think senility lol

:D Well...um... :D

Oh no, Thelma, I don't think it's stupid at all!

This is still a board in its infancy, as far as I'm concerned, even though it's almost a year old, or is it a year old now? I can't remember. :rolleyes: It'll take time to build up a strong base.

I know I quote other places often, but always try to remember to give recognition to where it came from.

BT lost me under its current leadership and moderation system. :mad: I'll search the internet high and low to glean information before I ever go back there.

"Well Thelma", she said. "I think I'm older than you are so we won't talk about senility". *grin. I can only speak for me and I honestly do not feel like a shadow of anything.

thomas wolfe was right, you really can't go home again and I frankly, wouldn't want to, having been there and done that.

What I do want to do is offer encouragement, hope and support for anyone who is in need. I want people to know that I honestly give a dam if they are hurting, suicidal, lonely....a cyber hug is better than no hug at all.

And I'm glad you brought it up...TALKING about it is my "thing"! :winky:

A couple of random thoughts...

By default in the U.S., authors own whatever they write unless they have specifically agreed to something that says otherwise (e.g. in a Terms of Service agreement or the like). So while someone may claim a different agreement, unless they can prove you agreed to something other than your retention of ownership of your own words, they are *yours* and yours alone to do with as you please.

Now, in the case of BT, they claim something different, yet the registration when a new user signs up makes no mention of this claim, nor does their TOS (which I couldn't find, since the bottom link to their terms of service is still broken!). So, even though BT claims a Creative Commons license for their work, it's unlikely that it would be found to be legally binding to its members, since its members are never asked to agree to such a license when they signed up to the forums in the first place.

Having said that, the CC license BT is claiming says you can go ahead and copy and redistribute anything you find on their site as long as attribution is given (e.g., "Originally posted to BrainTalk by so-and-so person."), it's for non-commercial use (NT is non-commercial), and you can't alter or build upon the post you're copying (basically, you need to copy it whole).

So, having said that, I'd say that for limited amounts of copying, especially that which is meant to educate or inform other members, I'd say you're welcomed to do so. If it is of another member's work, though, I would definitely get that member's permission first, when possible, since that would just be common courtesy to do so.

John

I'm not in the USA and I don't wish ANY of my posts to be copied randomly on any threads or posts by people without my knowledge and my permission.

INTERNET COPYRIGHT LAW

Copyright law in Australia is administered by the Copyright Law Branch of the Information and Human Rights Division of the of the Attorney-General's Department.Copyright law is set out in the Copyright Act 1968. The law also includes court decisions which have been made since that date which show how the Act can be interpreted and applied in different situations. An organization called the Australian Copyright Council offers information and training which helps to clarify the many different forms of copyright.

In 2001, the Copyright Amendment (Digital Agenda) Act 2000 was passed and this amendment sets out copyright protection regarding material found on the internet. As well as the general Australian Copyright Act 1968 and the more recent amendments made specifically for the internet, there is also a treaty called the Berne Convention which involves over 100 countries from around the world. This treaty allows Australian copyright owners to be protected in most other countries in the world. It also allows protection for authors from other countries to be covered by copyright law in Australia. In 2004, some changes were also made to the Copyright Act with the implementation of the Australia-United States Free Trade Agreement (AUSFTA).

The laws which relate to copyright in Australia are very complex and cover all areas of intellectual property including the internet. Copyright is a type of intellectual property and the law gives exclusive legal right to the individual, or anyone assigned or employed by them, to protect the expression of their ideas including how that information can be copied and also whether or not that material can be distributed to the public. Copyright laws also outline what information can be copied for personal use and what can or can not be distributed to the public.

All work which is original and created from ideas which have not been copied from other people’s work is automatically covered by copyright law as soon as it has been recorded in some way. In Australia there is no actual copyright registration system and copyright is free and automatic, however, rights can vary depending on the type of work. Ideas can be expressed in many different forms. These include written material such as newspaper articles, emails, computer programmes, song lyrics, poems, e-books and website text on the internet. It also includes dramatic works, musical works, films, compilations and directories, sound recordings, videos and computer programmes. Rights can vary for different types of work. One example is that copyrights for musical and literary works are different from the rights for artistic works.

Copyright laws do not protect us from other people making work that is similar and calling it their own. We can also read other people’s work and translate or modify that work into our own words by following certain guidelines. In this situation it is very important to show correct referencing. This will make it absolutely clear that the work of another person has been accessed or read and that our work may contain similar ideas but it cannot be the same. This can deter people from copying or using that property as their own. In order to prove legal ownership in some countries overseas it is actually necessary to show that a notice of copyright has been attached to a work. When we want to protect our expressed ideas in the various forms available on the internet it is important to use a copyright notice stating our name and the date that the work was made and specific guidelines outlining what can and can not be done with our work.

It is important to remember though, that there is a certain amount of copying which is considered to be fair under copyright legislation. However, copying of a substantial part of material can break copyright laws. Substantial doesn’t necessarily mean a large amount of the material referring to size. Substantial in this context can also mean an important part of that work, something that makes that work distinctive from other works, or something that is essential to that work

The actual amount of information which can be copied does vary. Most sites will show guidelines regarding copyright stating how much information, or which part of their information can be downloaded, re-posted, forwarded, or printed and exactly what a user can or can not do with that information. When a copyright notice is posted on information on the internet this is called express permission. This type of permission also applies if the user contacts the copyright owner or the webmaster of a site and is given permission to use their material as long as they follow the specified guidelines for reproduction.

If a website does not have a notice regarding copyright a user should contact the owner of the website and ask permission before copying or using any of their material or before linking to their website. Some websites will show information which does not belong to the webmaster of that site, so then it is the responsibility of the user to check with the actual owner of the work posted on that website to check what rights apply to their work.

When a user makes a website or posts their own intellectual property or ideas on the internet there are several ways to make sure that their work can be protected from other people using that work as their own. The most important way to do this on our own websites is to display a copyright notice stating very clearly what can and what can not be done with our work. In some situations it is also possible to use digital watermarking and digital rights management software to protect our work.

Implied permission doesn’t set out copyright quite as clearly. Many news sites on the internet, for example, will show icons which allow us to show print-friendly versions of the site, or icons which allow us to email to others. This implies that the information can be shared without clearly stating that fact in an attached copyright notice.

The public domain comprises information which is not covered by copyright and which is freely available to the public. This can happen when a copyright expires when a certain period of time has lapsed after the death of the author of the work or it can mean that the work was never covered by copyright law and has been distributed on the internet for public use or modification. A large amount of software has been designed specifically for the public to download at no cost and without copyright. It is usually stated on the download site that the software is in the public domain. Once again it is our responsibility as a user to check for any notices which imply that the software is public domain and we should not assume that because there is no notice that we are free to copy, download or modify material. Some software available on the internet might not be legitimate

One area of the internet that has been gaining a lot of attention recently is the downloading of music files or MP3 files. File sharing allows people to make files available to others on a network. Some internet websites where music files are shared across a network have suggested that downloading their files is legal. This is not always true and we should be aware that we cannot download another person’s intellectual property without their permission. Many major record companies are now offering downloads from their own websites. Some of these are free and some of them are not. Once again it is our responsibility as the user to check if we are breaking the law before we download files through P2P software.

Copyright law is very complex and especially so in the area of the internet. It is most important for everyone who uses the internet to have knowledge of basic copyright law because this can ensure that we can legally safeguard our own expressed ideas as well as the ideas expressed by others.


Lara.
© Copyright 9th August, 2007

http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/agdHome...25704C001A561E
Copyright Law Branch - Australian Government Attorney-General’s Department

http://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/pdfs/f...ets/ausfta.pdf
Australian Government - Australia – United States Free Trade Agreement
Examining The Impact on Intellectual Property
IP Australia, January 2005

http://www.copyright.org.au/
Australian Copyright Council - Online Information Centre

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/c...act/ca1968133/
Commonwealth Consolidated Acts - COPYRIGHT ACT 1968

http://john.curtin.edu.au/society/glossary/
Archives & recordkeeping glossary
John Curtin Prime Ministerial Library, Australia

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/pro.../glossary.mspx
Glossary of Networking Terms for Visio IT Professionals

i have brought this up before, but have not seen an answer. i might have missed it.

but how do you get permission from somebody that might not be around? or passed away? how are you going to prove you got permission? people have different usernames. some have joined here and had to pick a new name because the name they were using on obt was already taken. or they just chose a different one here.

there was some very awful posts made on that forum. they were allowed by the admin and mods there. good people were banned and those disgraceful and demeaning posts were left. so what this mean is that those can be posted here. :(

yes

I have to add that I agree with what Curious has just said.

this is a very delicate area, as Lara's post above clearly shows..... and there are many here who really do not want to be reminded of some of the past on the old boards...some are here because they were very wounded there.

nomatter the legalities and logistics on this, I would like to personally plead with everyone to be VERY sensitive before posting links or quotes from some of the old posts.

where I share in the BT roots, and have many friends here who I met there, and many friends too who have chosen to stay there only, yet I also know the vast majority have moved on here, and would prefer to stay looking forward, not back when it comes to personal posts.

Archived medical/research/treatment etc info is certainly very useful but again, where do we draw the line between what is personal to some. The medical data may also be outdated and could potentialy cause harm.

Just as DocJohn has said, common courtesy should stop all from posting words that were someone elses, and again, I urge all to be careful about NOT posting those email addys and other personal info showing on the old archives.

We also have many new members who do not share our BT history and we need to consider them too when making posts...

So please, again as a fellow member and one with roots at BT too, I am really asking members to be sensitive to each other with this old stuff.......

My concept of this and I may be wrong is that anything you put out on the net is public content and while no one asked anyone if they wanted to be quoted on other sites or put on Wayback for instance they were. So that tells me it is okay to use.

I can see of no one wanting to put castigations of the former site or any of the members there towards each other on here but it is a thought that has to be worked out.

I know of no one that would want to do that but there may be a sick person with a grudge out there who would think this site is available for payback.

That would require moderation and immediate deleting, no questions asked.

Names don't have to be used nor any info relating to the person who initially posted. They themselves could come on and take credit for it or just let ilt be as is.

I don't think any medical or treatment information may be used as it could have dire results for those who would consider it genuine medical information and take it to heart.

It would only be as Tena has already displayed by putting in her poem from a time in her life when she had turmoil and heartache and yet found reason not to give in to what her life had become. It is a memory of what was and now has turned around for the good I hope.

We have in my opinion a sort of a lost continent here and the people are trying to form a committment to make this a place of freedom [ to an extent] and find a companionship with each other that is building from scratch and that is very hard to do. There has to be a point from which you build and a posting here and there or a forum for them is a foundation from which to grow.

Lara says she doesn't want anything of hers to be put on such a place. well that is fine and she will be given the urls [which will be posted ] to seek out and see if she herself would like to put some on. Her choice.

Some new people may not care at all and won't even read but if they meet someone here and want to learn who they are it will be much easier to read and learn. Now that is because while some members are lurking here and not posting is because they have advanced in thelir lives and just can't do it again. That can be either mentally or even physically.

But i do believe the older members [not age wise] are the bridgework for the forum and in them the strength lies for the site.

I hope you all can see where I am coming from and will find a way to express what you think so maybe John can see his way clear to allow this to happen.

Thank you for reading and hearing me

With respect for your opinion whatever it is yay or nay

Thelma

Actually IMO that is not correct.

If I'd wanted to repost my own messages I'd do it. In fact a member once asked me if I could repost something which I'd posted on numerous specific message boards and I was happy to do so. The great thing was that the member here asked me if I would do that.

Why would you be searching for my posts to put the URL's here?

You don't need to give me any urls to my own messages nor post them here. I'm surprised this is all being given so much attention all of a sudden. A lot of people have been aware of the archived posts for a very, very long time. Many haven't yet been archived of course, but this is not actually something new.

This is not Braintalk/hasty pastry. This is a totally different site. I totally understand that Tina might wish to post her own poetry or you might like to post messages that you posted in the past, but the posting of whole threads willy nilly which contain private information including names and email addresses of former posters or posters who don't know you're doing it, is beyond my comprehension.

I can't see any problem at all in doing it occasionally in the correct manner, but I see this as a total can of worms which is going to explode in our faces.

Well said Thelma! And it sounds like Doc John has basically given the go-ahead. I think we are all smart enough to know what would be appropriate to post. And I trust the mods to take care of anything that isn't as well. :hug:

And well said Lara! As I just said, I think we're all smart enough and compassionate enough to post appropriately. And the great mods we have can cover our behinds if we don't. And our community as a whole, I believe, is clever enough to let mods know if something isn't appropriate. They do a great job.

Have I said lately how much I love this place? Doc John and the mod team rock. :D

edited to add: Just saw your post, Doody. Thanks.
Yes, but it could become a full time moderation issue by the sound of it.

but... Just say I'm not me-Lara for a moment, and pretend I'm someone else ...

what if I was to go to wayback and find all of one person's specific messages and post them over here on SOS. Still pretending I'm someone else... I'm thinking my posts were helpful and great and I got away with posting them on the other place, so I'll just post them here to give the place a bit of a stir.

I think this will keep our mods waaaaaaaay too busy! :o

*whisper...Doody, will that cat ever get off that pot!!?

Oh my Lara....makes the hair stand up on my neck remembering....:(

:hug: i am sooo sorry alffe. i feel the same way. :(

Watching Endeavour going up now. AMAZING!!!

sorry, got sidetracked by life events...
Sorry alffe, you get my point though.

You betcha Lara! :hug:

Lara you just don't get it yet. I am not searching for anyones posts nor if I saw anyones posts would I be putting urls to find them in here. I meant the url to find all of the posts would be there for you or anyone to search and find your own or if you come across one that says something to you in a meaningfull way you may want to put it in or not do do that is your choice.

It is not the big deal you are making it out to be folks.

One of the things you are not thinking of is that others in some of the forums such as Als can not do all of this for themselves so someone can do it for them. If they want it done.

In your own forums you can add yours or others that you find if they are not angry nor salacious nor disquieting to other members but are beneficial to the other members.

No problem.

Now as to overworking the moderators. there were more than we have now at the start and many more would volunteer if needed. There are 3 or 4 in some of the forums and only a few posts to monitor if any at this time.

So why should that be a problem?

You all seem to be thilnking of the worst scenarios and not the good ones that could come from this.

Surely there are more with opinions than this few and why don't we wait and see what the majority feel about it.

Who knows they may feel the same but I would like to hear from them at least.

And no I don't want to see all of anyones postings put on it would be just a relevant post here and there.

Cheesh you are making this far more than it is.

Let me add a clarification, because it seems that in this case, there are specific concerns regarding past actions and behaviors of some members, especially when it comes to other people's privacy and their personal information.

So let's err on the side of caution for the time being and say this... You can readily post anything *you've* written in the past on any site here, since you likely own your own copyright (by default, we all do).

But let's refrain for the time being from re-posting other people's posts on NeuroTalk until we see how it goes, okay? I know this is different than what I said earlier, but I honestly wasn't aware of the history here until I went and read some more background on this issue (specifically wrt to BT, not copyright law). I'd rather try our best to protect other people's privacy and personal information, especially when that is probably what most people want anyway (protection of one's own personal information).

So please, do not post other people's posts here, and definitely do not post other people's personal information here (like their email address) unless they've given you explicit permission to do otherwise. Thank you!

John

Thanks but can you make an exception if in the case of the Als forum that if requested to do so by a member you can.

I see from what I read here it was to adventurous an idea.

Thanks John

Well, would we have the original poster's expressed permission to do so?

I think if the original poster granted us permission, it might be okay... but it might also depend on the specific situation (since there's a lot more "history" here than I'm aware of).

John

Thanks John

Thelma

Thanks, DocJohn.

Thanks Kimmy now please remove it