On Empathy
 

I am not sure how scientific this study really was, altho on the surface it looks pretty good...mind blowing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20071212/ts_csm/ababy

I love baby studies...
 

One wonders though if it is really empathy? Babies would be hardwired to SURVIVE... and siding with a helper, is survival in my book. Back when we evolved, life was tenuous and injuries, accidents, happen and would orphan little ones easily!

Reminds me of a psychiatrist who used to come in to talk to me on Sundays.
She was in her 80's and mostly retired. And she liked supplements so we had a lot in common. I'll never forget the time she told me that research is showing, that aggression and hostility are learned before the age of 2. That preverbally babies and toddlers watch the interactions of parents and others and if exposed to violence, aggression, they learn those responses very early and repeat them.
This doctor went to all the lectures around the country. One day she came in and was very impressed... since I had told her a long time ago about Omega-3s and ADHD etc. She went to a lecture finally including THEM! It was a triumph for me to learn that some doctors were interested in this and applying it finally.

I remember a study done on babies and breast milk....apparently they could identify their own mother's breast milk. That is pretty easy to buy as smell is the most rudimentary of all senses....smell is a rather interesting topic. Smells really bring out emotional reactions and memories more readily than other senses.

It seems a complex test for the babies....all the colored circles, shapes etc....I don't think you can 'ask' a 6 month old which they prefer...I wonder how they ascertained which the baby liked better.

Well, my laptop pooped out....I knew that was coming...it was my daughter's old defunct one....I got it fired up for a while but we knew the cord or input was going....I am afraid it is not the cord...I should not have fiddled with it. It kept turning off all the time, so I "mon-keyed" around with it....now I am stuck going to my computer room to the desk top...which in the long run is a good thing....I need to paint in there, get it organized and homey-ized. I need to claim it as my own space.

Empathy
 

Is a skill long forgetten in many many adults - so often when one just needs to hear - "dont worry, something will work out" - or "I'm so sorry that happened" - etc.... its not there - instead people seem to have become so self centered they completely lack the ability to respond to others in this manner - which is very healing to the spirit.. I think what used to a perceived gap between men and not understanding (just listening) is not a sexist thing - is universal - and its amazing that someone recognizing the fact that they are lisening to what you are saying and let you know that - period - is invaluable..... (how often have you told someone about a death or similar situation and before you finish the sentence they launch into their own story - when what you need to hear is simply "I'm sorry".) We could reach out to so many others by understanding this need I believe, and help those in pain......

yes,
 

Now that my computer is working a little this morning, I'll add to my other post and Kmeb's.

Real empathy, is not present in narcissists. Or sociopaths/psychopaths.
These character/personality disorders are becoming very common today.
Some Aspergers/autistic patients are also low in empathy.

A narcissist is only interested in others, when those others provide attention for them. They don't care about others basically. They think beautiful music and art are sappy, they think if you cry or are in pain you are weak, stupid. They steal your time/money and soul for themselves with no remorse or conscience.

Narcissistic traits are very high in small children. And I have read that by 6yrs of age this starts to wane if the children are not genetically programmed to be
narcissists forever. Responsive kids can be trained away from this self centered style with time.

So saying infants have empathy... is a little stretched for me. Infants are ego centric and want everything for themselves. I'll never forget when my son was about 3 or 4 I was sick with the flu and throwing up in the toilet...he walked in and calmly demanded lunch. Oblivious to my pain and temporary inablility to get lunch for him.

Here is a great website that goes into this subject in detail. If you have ever been trashed by a narcissist you will recognize the behaviors in this well written non technical discussion:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/

I agree. We need to teach kids and adults to listen.

I think that we have forgotten that silence, for a few seconds, to collect our thoughts is good.

I have learned now, "There is nothing I can say. I am so sorry. Let me know if there is anything I can do." is often the best response. I have also learned that there is often a huge response right after a crisis...a death, a violent crime, a diagnosis....then, in a week or two, it all vanishes. That is when I send a card to some one, to let them know they are in my thoughts, or that I care. I used to make a meal and leave it on their doorstep, weeks after the crisis was over.

In my life, I found often people just did not know what to say, so they stayed away. Our family had a member that was a victim of a violent, hideous crime.....That was the hardest. No one knew what to say....they don't make cards for this kind of thing. Some folks came thru for us tho....I learned who my friends were---AND who my enemies were....my 'enemies' came from the most unlikely places....'Enemies' took the form of people advocating for the perpetrator of the crime. They are always out there....this bunch got a kick in the pants when the details of the crime were made public. I think there was not a hole deep enough for them to crawl into. He thankfully did prison time, but there were those that felt it should go unpunished. Enough said...it is still uncomfortable to speak about.

gee-I can here our emergency siren going...the tornado ones...we also hear it for fires....I assume some one started a fire somewhere, with the old wood burner. We have tornado sirens here that you can hear way in the country, as we live in tornado land. One of the best tornadoes ever filmed was filmed just a few miles from here...it was a big tornado but only one person died, and it hit in kind of a suburban-rural area, so not as many homes were damaged had it hit in town. People don't think of our state as a tornado alley but lately we get more and more.

You are right kmeb. Empathy is not sympathy. And when some one launches into their own story that they thinks relates to present situation, it makes me grimace.....it is sort of how we relate now a days.....There is much we can learn from days past, and how things were handled back then.

I think we need to stop and think before we open our mouths....and remember how the days wear on, after a loss...that is when some one often needs support.

As nice as cell phones, email and the virtual world is....we still need a real time hug....that said, an email is still very helpful, especially on a tough day.

OHH My, Cycleops, Kmeb, Billye, Cathie and all
 

of you good people who have shown and shared to ME that true empathy and support...I do truly wish I could give you all, warm, soft HUGS! {not quite grandmotherly type tho? - not ready for that by a long shot!}
One aspect I find lacking in some quarters from some members has been an absence of anything relating to empathy in postings, but rather a postulation to a given or patricular philosophy. THAT particular shortcoming shows in many responses by some board members to many established and new members in need. Maybe it's the old 'been there, done that' response to hearing pleas from newcomers again and again... I do not know. I for one, try to be open to any and all viewpoints, provided they have a solid medical base. New people learn all we have learned from the ages [duh,years?] we have been on boards. BUT I find each new person, gives ME pause, to ask the basic questions again...I find I do not get stale in the process? Some appear to repeat by rote.
Maybe, and I truly hope that this is the case, is that the whys of why we all post here is that....WE came here afraid and scared...seeking help, hope or an outlet...ideally all? WE know what these newer folks are experiencing and that ANYTHING we can do to alleve those fears and help them learn to learn and get the right HELP is key to our existence? And our own ultimate relief.

Oh, Cycleops, yeah about the 'they just don't know what to say' thing? Well, my own brother who has a wife with MS couldn't relate at ALL until I'd done my homework and put out that it's DEMEYELINATION...not from the brain out, but from the out..IN! [backed up by NIH 'definitions' in print, in a holiday card..blunt? yep, necessary, betcha!] Only took two Plus years and they'd been active with MS causes for ages? Once that D word was out there, no more questions about physical 'issues'? DUH? Enuf? At times I really wanna swing my 4"x4" as best I can where I can, ya know? And HARD!

Hope there is no reason for those sirens to be going off! - Me? around here, I'm just waiting for the ice-stuff...sometime tomorrow? I plan to pretend I've a normal life[sort of] until it appears...Then I think I am going to have to HIBERNATE. Better excuse for sleeping not yet found? :hug::hug:'s and Good hope to one and all. - j

I think empathy is a gene in one's body. I'm probably wrong, but this is what I think. I have it, my son does not. He is now a robot in a virtual world. He has explained that empathy is just not what he feels and that is that. Blah blah blah.

I've spent the better part of 6 years, speaking to psychologist after psychiatrist about my son. Everyone said "we've never met a kid like your son". Therapy does not work. Every therapist has given up. He won't go to groups, because he knows everything.

He has been diagnosed with both Narcissistic Personality disorder, as well as Aspergers.

Whatever he has, it stinks, and absolutely can ruin a family dynamics.

How we can reach people like him, well I will never know. I do know I have tried. I've been up till 3 a.m. with suicide hotline people trying to make sure he's allright, only to be told they can't speak to me because after all I might be a hit person. Imagine a kid of 20, letting his parents believe he is suicidal and that he does this just to be picked up and taken to crisis centers where he gets a square meal and a snack and a bed for the night. He has admitted as much to me.

I have been told that "his brain is not wired like other people".

Oh really?? You have no idea how many people email me and describe the same situation in their own household.

This cannot be a coincidence. The rise in personality disorders, and aspergers, well, it's astronomical.

If research doesn't get to he bottom of this, I fear for the future of our world.

All these self centered people are developing personalities totally geared to their own well-being. So what is to become of he parents who raised them, who loved them. Are we going to be warehoused when we hit 80 or so??

I don't know. I find it very strange. I remember the old days, 40 or 50 years ago, when kids respected their moms and dads and didn't expect he mom and dad to support them for the rest of their life. When they went to school to learn, and not to bring guns and shoot up schools and malls.

We never had this in my younger years. Just look what is happening now.

I don't get it!!! I never will.

mel

Hi
 

Just got in from my daughter -in .law's speech on how the Day care children
have reacted to what they at age 2 reacted to the bombings..Nighmares
after what they saw still..Some can describe seeing the death,can describe
the smells of charred burned skin. And yet others will look at you she
said,like what are you talking about ,what are all these people talking
about??? Like there parents have lost there minds. and ones who
totally do no remember there father who died one floor up. Then the ones
who can't forget the Mother who change there diaper,how can this be
they decribe it like she was still there making them comfy.

I have always been told you are basically your set in your way at 6,but she
we forget many times who was it that raised them,Dad ,Mom,grandparents
foster care. Her book will be out in Oct. on all of this,And to our surprse,
we all found out tonight it will made into a movie..

Amy's parents divoced when she was 3 her brother 4. One week they lived at
dad's and one week at Mon's..That didn't happen so much when we were
kid's,I have tried my best to remenber this i just don't..Amy and her brother
were close,her brother had no problem with his mother ,he has 3 daughters
never has he let them see his father or step mother..Amy loves all of them,
she refuses to let her pass destroy her future..The brother and family
live in Pasdena,Ca. they had a successful business,a beautiful home..He would only say fathers should never leave the mother of there children..
Last year her brother lost there business there home,why the mother of his
3 little curly hair girls, became addicted to cocaine..They tried the family
except his dad to get her help,she refused,he won't leave her.

Well until something can be done for those little girls parents my son and
daughter-in-law took theem to court...The Judge told Amy's brother he was
a enabler and needed help,and he wanted know if he had anything to say.
Yes you have tured me into my father..The mother agree to get help,
so now Ryan and Amy have custody of 3 little confused girls..The brother made threats and is the hospital,I can only pray he will get help and as well
as the girls mom and they can be a father and mom again..Her whole family is here
and the girls met there grandfather,,I just sat and watched the joy and fear
in there eyes...Who did they stay close to,why Bob of course. We live
in a sad world.Bob didn't try to get there love,he just gentle,read to them,
answered there question when he could..They are very excited we are suppose to 8 inch. of snow,it's late,he woke there grandfather up,and Ryan
I went into the living room,and there the were all watching the snow.
There Grandfater,said let's go out and make snow angels for your mom and
dad. Wonderful the fear went out of there eyes...I can only say what a day

And I have 60 people coming to a dinner at a resturant,oh boy 8 inches
of snow..Hope those snow angels work,I made Hot Chocolate and woke
everyone up,they must know lots of people love them,they still have time.
Bob whispered in my ear that was fun,put a little rum in mine I hurt
everywhere...Escuse the mess and hugs to all..I have a older brother
who is a socialpath being with him is like being on a rolercoaster,and
someimes you just have to get off and leave no matter how much it hurts.
Hugs Sue :grouphug:


.

another thought...
 

Just because a person is not expressive (or is introverted) does not mean
they have little or no empathy. These types show their concern by generous
behaviors, but may be uncomfortable verbally.

I have a book called The Sociopath Next Door. In it are estimates that 1 in 25 are sociopaths.

For you Mel, I've seen articles about autism and Asperger's and these patients may resemble criminal psychopathy, but typically are NOT criminal.
So lack of empathy is not always a sign of criminality. Criminal behavior is also connected with lack of conscience. And I think those are two separate issues.
Lack of conscience seems to be genetic.

But I agree you must endure alot with your son. :hug: I would find it very hard myself to deal with that level of lack of emotion. I guess that is why many Asperger's patients live alone.

Mrs D and....
 

I also think empathy may be genetic in some cases - but is learned also..... another phrase to describe it is "active listenting" - just repeating what a person just says to you to let them know you understand what they are saying is sometimes so crucial.... I actually had a class back in the dark ages in B school just on this topic - at the time I thought it was a fun easy A - but it was critical for people going into management - etc.... (of course some never got it anyway).... if you dont listen you dont hear what others real needs and pain may be - and just by repeating back to them acknowledges those feelings.....

In regards to social situations - it is interesting to watch how others respond to tramatic effects in our own lives.... those with empathy often understand the I'm sorry, what can I do, or even just a HUG sends such a strong message... its a comfort - people need to know they are being heard, that no one else can take away the pain, but there are those who care and you can reach out to them if need be - just again, for a HUG...... and yes, there is an "outpouring" right after a tramatic life event - and it does disspear very fast - and Cyclops - you're right - its important to continue to remember those people who are hurting - the first holidays, etc.....

For those of us chronically ill and dealing with huge life changes ourselves - I watch how my fam and friends have dealth with it... I cant participate in normal life any more, including eating and driving - some of them have been great - some literally pretend I'm dead... (she cant eat or drive - why bother) And if one is homebound - the pain can be devestating.....

I encourage all of us to reach out to someone else (and sometimes I mean just literally physcially reach out) and offer them comfort - everyone we come in contact with with influence in some way - one never knows when it will make an important change to another.......

I agree that certain aspects of empathy are genetic, when my daughter passed two of my closest friends didn't attend the service or acknowlegde her death with a card.
I am forgiving of them because I understand they lack the skills to be able to contact me, whether it's denial or not being able to face me with the right words, instead I feel bad for them.
As for here on the home front, I don't get empathy from anyone, which sometimes makes me furious, but I keep it to myself. I feel that no one can feel your pain or the intensity of it so they can't understand something they can't visualize.
On a lighter note I have started pool therapy, I love it, all floaty and no pain, I might be able to restart all my frozen muscles afterall, oh for a pool in my backyard, covered of course!!

kmeb:

You wrote: "some literally pretend I'm dead... (she cant eat or drive - why bother) And if one is homebound - the pain can be devestating....."

My god, who would have ever thought that family members can think like this.
My how times have changed.

Melody

Melody
 

People in many cases are afraid of illness or dont know how to deal with it - for some they are scared they are going to "catch" my neuropathy (I've had drivers from the agency I use for transportation make me sit in the back seat for fear of germs) - others I know it upsets them to see me so disabled after being so active my whole life - but the true ones hang in there... but think about how many activities revolve around food and meals... I dont mind watching others eat, but if you cant drive to get to the location and I'm out of the way of anyone really any more - ya kinda get forgotten.....

I understand.

Alan and I don't live near any of our family. We live in Brooklyn, and everybody else lives in New Jersey.

His family AND my family.

We have missed so many family get togethers because Alan hasn't driven in 6 years. I remember 40 or so years ago, when, if a family member didn't drive, SOMEONE came and picked them up. My Aunt Lucy didn't drive so one of my mother's other 4 sister's husbands came and got my Aunt Lucy. This was every weekend. Every Sunday, every friday night. Someone went and picked up Aunt Lucy, brought her over to my house (with everybody else) and then at night, SOMEONE always took her home. My Aunt Angie also. In those days, it was never thought of to get together and leave someone out.

But most of these people have passed away and my generation is not the same and my mother's generation. The people today are entirely more self absorbed. Even if they drive, well, they are too enmeshed in their own lives to think of going out of their comfort zone and pick up someone.

I would never asked to be picked up. In the past, if access-a-ride took us to a person's house, and then we had to go to ANOTHER person's house via a car, Alan and I would always pay for the gas. I don't care how rich a person is, if I'm riding in that car and they are driving, I chip in for the gas.

But now the Access-a-ride is on strike, and even if you get a trip you are told "we can't guarantee that someone will come and you can't bring a guest'. So I had to skip Cornell last Friday. They are mailing me my meds.

They are very nice at Cornell.

But we are used to having at least the Access-a ride to get us places. Now we don't even have that.

How sad that families are so spread apart. Nothing beats a cup of coffee and some muffins and some family chat time.

I guess the world really changed, didn't it??

melody

Empathy....
 

I am going to try and address different sets of issues that have come up here?
1] Babies responses? Maybe it's the 'smell'? We know with animals that smells and imprinting are key to bonding issues...maybe that it a key initial primal sense? People who smell 'good' are more attractive than those with medical diseases or conditions? Think of all the 'meds' we take...Maybe they make us 'nasty' to kids? I just read a study about 'smell imprinting+ pain connections' Ill try to find it and post it.....
2] 'Empathy' regarding our diseases? Well, the lack of education does foster ignorances, by others...WE have to be day-to-day advocates to start, no ...stop the bias of 'mis-informations' that float out on the news and others sources...we have to WRITE and state how silly it is to believe that whatever we have 'IS CATCHING"....
3] and most important about empathy....How many of us have an 'Aunt Hattie' or equivalent with dementia in our midst? I have a FIL...and he is snug in a care center about 500 miles away. IS it worth it to go see him for a 'possible' five minutes of lucidity on any given day?
4] Lastly...That said, IF one has a serious and long term chronic illness..most family members cannot deal with it after about 2-3 years...attachments aside..they are already divvieing up any potential assests...you are well, written off. I say this from long experiences, a set of parents who died from chronic issues, then a bunch of siblings who are also dealing with some 'similar issues' but not necessarily related [Thanks to all you dealing with the genetics?] and well, some folks are either too self centered or indifferent to care to share or just be with those who are home-bound. It's not always a nice place to be! Yet, if one on these boards were nearby to me, and offered any help...there might be a time I sure would appreciate the offer! Even if only for some small bit of 'forbidden' coffee? Some live in big cities where 'resources' of many types for 'access' are available and not expensive. I live in a clear cut suburb, and while some 'resources' are out there...they are sporadic. Not long ago, I drove an older person back to her 'retirement community' because the 'arranged ride' well.for the ride home...evaporated! It was a cold wet day..no sense for a neuro person to stand out in in the wet and cold...when I was gonna go not far from there on my way home. It IS when we need constant Medical Appointments...and trying to be independent, that we cannot always rely on 'friends or family'...they did their ten turns! Doing more, helping others, well pay-backs come round full circle in time... Anyone who can? DO it now and soon! Your turn may come fast, and then you can find out how frustrating it IS!
Empathy? It to me is realizing that what goes around comes back...and if you haven't had it...the lack will come and bite your backside! Or kick it or whatever...SUE YOU THERE??? I think you could elaborate better here?
-j

Hey there
 

Well I stsrted to respone and kept falling alsleep a good thing can be an exhausting thing..They dinner party wore me out..Being house bound looks
and feels pretty good after 60 people slid into a resturant,when there's 10 inches of snow over ice.There was a Toddler who bless his heart slep through
the whole thing.. Then there was a 5 month little girl very tiny,mommy had a
hard time breast feeling..Mom was a nervous mom and 40..The baby was
good about letting anybody pick her up. Usually Babies love me if i'm in my
wheelchair,probaly the movement,relaxing,fun..Well I told Dr. John just help
me over to the baby,my son was holding her,she was smilimg,laughing..Well
I was falling all over hanging on a table trying not to fall down..Well mom
relaxed and was breast feeding...No nobody noticed big sweater,then she got passed on to Dr. John,so forth,Then Bob walked by and she wiggled and
threw her arms out to Bob.Well i finally been over and thinking i'm going
to get a smile she puckered up and let out a yell. See wanted her mother.
Wow that's interesting,everybody said she's tired,my son looked surprised
(babies love me},well when they all became quiet,I think she wise enough to
know I would I would drop her or I was wearing rotten perfune.

Just kidding but a good part of the evening ,people keep coming up saying
I think it's wonderful your here and looking so well..Arn't yo tired what's
that diease you got agin bla bla...Hurt my feelings than latler John said your lucky so many people really care about you..I seen people who lay in bed and nobody comes to see them..They love you Sue,But maybe I would of liked
if they said you look great,he said that's all I heard. Huh!!No they didn't
my son walked up mom everybody thinks you look beatiful and I think you do
to..Then the baby yelled again,hear comes mom ,well we better leave and
her little arms came flying out to me,well i rocked her for a long time she smiled and went to slleep..I hurt everywhere,I'm tired,don't want to do
that for a while,but I believe babies aren't so picky,I think they sence people
no matter,what people look like,if kind they like them or there not jugemental.
Your family are jerks k,Ive got some,we all do..I'm found some very goodpeople here,and I think J.is right if we want to be treated kindly we must
help others as long as we can,if we need help maybe we will run into people
like J. Well i said I was tired so hugs to all and you can hug me anytime you
want. PS I have been told by close family menbers oh I would have come
over but I thought you would be to tired.. For them always.:grouphug:

the wrong word?
 

Maybe we are using the wrong word?

It seems that the posts here reflect others reactions to pain as
empathy issues. Maybe it is just a lack of compassion?

This culture we live in is dominated by TV these days. Watching the Xmas
commercials is extremely unpleasant for me lately. It is the endless preoccupation with THINGS...violent video games, fancy plasma TVs, new cars, etc.

I remember when I was pregnant. There was a Maxwell house coffee commerical of a neighborhood helping a solitary elderly neighbor get a Xmas tree up (which she could not do herself). It was very touching, and even my husband was
commenting that "crying during commercials" is not going to sell much coffee.
I'd cry at the drop of a hat back then when pregnant.
There is an IAMs one of a cute puppy and little boy, with a voice over showing them both aging together...leading of course to the dog's demise.
The concept is that if you use IAMs your dog will live LONGER. Still the tears come for me.

I have been working with sick people for about 40yrs. I see other people move away physically from obviously sick patients. Then I read a book by EO Wilson, who coined "sociobiology". He believes that humans evolved with genes that contain Xenophobic traits. You see animals with this commonly. In a herd, they will sometimes shun or push out the weak, so the predators eat those and spare the healthy. You see small children stare and say "cruel" things to anyone who appears different. Crutches, canes, sometimes even eyeglasses.
It is Xenophobia that drives racial fear and racial hate. It is the holdover from evolution, to fear and avoid anything different..as a self preservation behavior.

I think alot of what we see here is really xenophobia. We think that this is a behavior that can be quickly changed with a few words in a sermon or some education. I don't think so.
It may be ingrained into the genes and will take an evolutionary time to
dwindle out. Xenophobic scenarios play out every day...everywhere.
Making laws may help instill some "fear" to not indulge in discriminatory behaviors publically, but people still have them, keep them secret in the home, and
it will take a LONG time to modify them.

What we see as lack of empathy may just be xenophobia of illness.

I got thrown off juries during one of my jury calls, just because I was using a cane then. I'll never forget the stares from the defendent and his lawyer, when doing the challenges. I guess they figured I was an old coot, ready for a fight..best get old coots off juries!

Couple Things
 

In regards to illnes alone - MRS d - yes, I think many people are afraid of what may happen to THEM - stare, run, stay away....... until it happens to them.....

Empathy overall I see as an true genuine caring for someones needs and trying to understand WHY and WHAT they may need.... there are folks petrified to go to funerals - death is part of life - just visiting a hopsital freaks others out..... etc.... but empathy sometimes is just reaching out to others in whatever way you can to say "I hear you are in pain and if I can help - let me know" - thats it... if you are lucky enought to grow up in a home where you are surrounded by people who understand this - more power - and, it should be learned as we get older, and used to be - but certainly doesnt seem to be any longer.

Our society today does allow for practically no contact - by choice or not - things like email dating, etc.. can it be more impersonal? "e" cards? (I dont even bother to open them - take two minutes and WRITE our your card).... dont want to talk to a person on the phone - screen them and just e response - again - no personal contact - no social skills needed... we're losing the ability to truly care and feel for each other.....

I remember as kid once a month visiting a local retirement home and adjoining nursing home - it scared us - the folks were old, and in the nursing home, very sick and most of the time seemed oblivious - but it was rewarding - because it was obvious we were appreicated and our visits much anticipated.... we always see on the days BEFORE the major holidays here major "stars" serving food at the homeless missions.. BUT - they still have their holiday off - and the real heroes here are the people who do this every single day... they get no credit - but they dont need the press - they know they are helping and making a difference, and thats what counts.....

I guess we could go back and forth about this forever - but lets face it - people are becoming socially retarded - chosing to not interact because it may bring up feelings they dont know how to relate to or handle.... the true heroes are those who can reach out and even for a second - touch somene else, again, with something as simple as a hug....

a social worker once told me
 

That back when we lived in smaller more intimate communities, and there
was no telephone, daily paper, etc..TV people relied on each other for support and it was natural. We still see this in the community we live in during the
summers-- 500 residents total over a large area.

She said now in her therapy, she sees more professionals of both sexes, who
do not get married, and live alone. I saw this in North Carolina, for example and mentioned it to her. The cars on the freeway there specifically at Reasearch Triangle Park, were all driven by single people. (in the outskirts this changes). So were the subdivisions.

So today we are more independent and get help over the phone, online and watch TV for news etc. So we have less needs than folks did 100yrs ago. I think this tends to isolate people and compartmentalize feelings. I have also noticed that people won't easily talk to you if you are in a long line at the store. I get them going every time..and then they typically do relax. It is kind of odd, really. Why not talk about something interesting and make the time pass better? How simple, but nope...they are typically in some invisible bubble!

Where we live in a changing very upscale neighborhood (which was not always this extreme) --people don't even go OUTSIDE! They flick open their garage door opener and go into the "cave" of the garage and close up after themselves. After most of our neighbors of long ago moved out, there are people now I have NEVER seen living in many houses. We don't have block parties anymore, and these newcomers are very unpleasant and trendy. I don't miss them at all. Once a new gal stopped in her car while I was working on the yard, and asked me..."how much do these folks pay you to keep this garden?" I said I do it myself! She was stunned. And we are one of the very few with flowers etc in front publicly.

I raised my son very carefully. I didn't want him to have doctor phobias, be afraid of hospitals etc. When he was 4 he had ENT surgery, and they provided a walk thru to desensitize the kids...it was called Surgical Safari. He did very well, no episodes or meltdowns then or when he had his surgery. He was nice at the doctors, all the time, even for his glasses. Then one day when he was out of high school he mentioned casually that he would freak if he ever had to go the ER or whatever...he is terrified of doctors! WHOA--- where did THAT come from? Even taking his pet cats to the vet stresses him out. How did that happen? I guess it was there all along? No matter how casual and non anxious I was with him, etc. ( are these feelings from the 15 days he was in the hospital after being born? does he somehow have that fear squirreled away?)

So people are complex... no simple answers for most things!

My kids are all quite grown with the exception of one DD child we adopted who is in her teens but really more like 6. NONE of my older kids want gifts. One asked to help her with money to come see us, but she lives 1,000 miles away and is in grad school...that is what she wants. My oldest makes more money than my hubby, and she says she needs nothing. My son is getting married and we are contributing to his wedding and he wants 'nothing' and my youngest son, he needs money, but he 'hates holidays' and gets depressed and says it is all about consumerism now a days. He says it isn't like the old days.

We used to have a magical Christmas Eve, but this year we have to change it to accomodate the plans of new in-laws and that is life, as families blend, we need to do that.

In the 'old days' even in-laws all lived nearby....

On the other hand, I was reading some history books, and realized that when our ancestors got on the boat to come to the US....they never, ever saw their family left behind again!!! As settlers went west, they too, often buried loved ones in unmarked graves on the prairie.

Difficulty has always been with us, as has lonlieness, as has compassion, as has greed.

I agree, that greed, or the advertising industry has made it seem like, we all 'need a house in Palm Beach, a villa in St. Barts etc" or that we should see a Lexus parked in the driveway as a surprise. Give me a break!!!

I know my mother and father's generation stayed in the same city and I grew up surrounded by cousins that felt more like sisters and brothers.

My generation moved more around the state and the general area, hard enough to get together in the large, humongous groups we had a kid.

My kids have gone all over the darn country and think the airlines are like jumping in the car for a drive...except it costs more and takes more time....I think they are seeing it isn't as easy as they expected it to be. These kids will do pretty much anything to make sure we are included, so I thank my lucky stars. But life is tough.

One child, my son, seems to not want to leave the area, to stay close to us and to his new in-laws, so his kids have the benefit of a grandpa and grandma. He is like a clone of my husband and his bride to be, very much like me! And I worry what we have left behind for them. They have such good values and live in such a messed up world....but they warm my heart.

I would say things changed about 12-15 years ago....

I grew up in a typical post war neighborhood where you could hear the kids getting yelled at and the family fights!! That was just normal....I can't imagine that happening in our perfect subdivisions now. I was whacked by a nun a few times....and I do not think I am worse off for it. When I watch that movie about the kid who wants the BB gun....that was how I grew up:D And remember when Savings and Loans were like on a Wonderful Life??

Life has changed, and honestly, I sound like my mom and grandma too much...they said the same thing. We have made a technological leap now though, unprecedented in times before....it seems to have changed how people relate, me included.

I need to get and give more hugs and not just during the holidays. So to those whom I can not reach out and touch, this is for you. :hug:

Oh and 'ET'---phone home.

When my children were young ,in the summer if they said they were
bored it was volunteer time. Usually it was nursing homes..The worked
with the solical worker,make beds,help take them on the bus,with our
permission...They got lot's of hugs and they learned to be gentle,and
what great stories the elderly can tell..I also thinks children feel good
about themself when they give,it works both ways...

Mel my son's best freind just move to Brooklyn with his girlfriend a dancer.
He loves it there which surprised and thrilled us. Anyway I showed Ryan
my son your's and Alan's pictures and your Video...Well when they get
a chance to go visit his friend,he would like to know if you and Alan
would consider going out to dinner with them all. Tailan is shy but very kind
his girlfriend is sweet ,funny and a beautiful dancer,then Ryan and Dr.
Amy..I don't even know when,but I would let you know way ahead of time.
Tailan parents passed away,his 3 sisters and then his twin brother,so
friends have been his family. Thought I would bring this up befor I
forgot. Don't have to but I think you and Alan would like them,I'll
PM you next time.

Sue:

How sweet of you. But I know Alan. He doesn't socialize. It took him 25 years to pick up the phone to speak to his sister (it was like pulling teeth). He is not a sociable person. You would never know this from watching the video. But I believe my husband has Aspergers Disorder. Too many signs. And my son has been diagnosed also. My husband could sit all day long and watch tv or go on the computer.

I was never encouraged to have company in the early years of my marriage because we both worked and well, that's the way he liked it. I did most of my socializing at my friend's homes.

I can count on my hands the number of times I've had company to my house (I've lived in this part of Brooklyn for 15 years).

Now growing up, my mother and father had 10 brothers and sisters so we always had company.

But Alan is a different sort. He prefers his solitude. That what's makes us so compatible. Can you imagine if we were both like that?? I can't.

I'm lucky he likes to go to the neuropathy support group once a month. And we used to go to Tough Love meetings when our son was 12. Then it was Gamanon meetings when he moved out and we found out he was a gambler. Then it was Aspergers Support Groups when our son was diagnosed with Aspergers.

It seems that all we do is go to support group meetings. Hey, it's better than nothing.

I do thank you Sue for thinking of me. Tomorrow Alan goes to see the Orthopedic surgeon (his first visit). He gets up at 5:30 to be there at 8 a.m. And no, I'm not going with him. I don't get up at 5:30 a.m. for ANYONE.

Not anymore. I like my sleep.

So Sue, you are a sweetie. I'm glad others enjoyed my video. I do like to laugh, now don't I??

Melody

Empathy? Neighbors like the old days? Not in this neighborhood.

We have lived here 30 years now, and know only a few neighbors on the face of two blocks, which contain nearly 60 houses... Kind of surprising, considering the houses are built so close together, my neighbor and I joke about sharing each other's living room and master bedroom... :)

We were discussing this in a Sociology class once and the professor attributed the changes to 3 things (at least in this area)-rear entry garages, central air conditioning and 6 or 8 foot high wood fences in the back... The only times people might see one another could be when they go out front in their pajamas to get the early morning paper or their mail... People just stay to themselves, especially if they work and come home dead tired...

I get more friendly interaction with Neurotalk members than I do with neighbors I have lived by or near for years...

New neighbors moved in next door and I thought, oh boy, a nice woman to visit with... Ha! She walks to her mailbox, looking neither right, nor left, just straight ahead... I thought I might squirt her with my hose one of these days to see if she will talk to me then... :) Bets on that???

No, "Hi, how are you, how did your surgery go? How is your dog doing? Are you still alive over there?" No, we are not alive, we all died last week. Jeez...

Cathie

That's ok Mel we were worried about Tailan anyway,he has a few very
good friends but he had a very hard life ,he sounds a bit like Alan.
My kids grew up with a open door policy,tons of kids. My Dad believe
no other Children in our house..My mom had a laugh like yours,and my kids
friends loved her. And she thouught it was fun stepping over alll these kids
even when they got to br teenagers...

I have been reading about your son's problem,why I have never heard of it.
untiil lately..What I don't understand is why would your son try to convicnce
you are anyone at 20 he was going to commit suicide,so he could get a square meal a snack and bed..Why would he go to that length for that,
are was he not at home..I'm being sincere,I don't understand is there
a book you could recommed..I think you said you haven't seen him in 5
years, I know you love him,that's why I'm so interested..

Cathie in Mi. what you decribed well that was Mi to I thought...Mo has
people who still wave when you go by,smile alot,help us old goats
in anyway they can..Both my husband a Mi. man,and Bob from Ca.
just couldn't get over how friendy. You would have that friendly lady
here..But not everybody wants that I guess,I love it. hugs to all Sue

Neighbors
 

Gotta agree about neighbors! I rememerber as kids we got the "boot" out the door every mornining (if not off to school) - there were several families of kids on our very tiny street - and all parents agreed - no t.v. period - we were to play together (or fight - which ever we chose), we alllowed to run between the houses and whatever parent was in resident would keep an eye on us - use the kitchens where we were could bake or eat lunch etc... just keep em cleaned up - play games until they turned into "war" at which we all keel over in exhuastion or it got dark - ride bikes until we crashed or whatever - just play with each other and when called for dinner - magically reappear... I'm sure they were keeping a much closer look on us then we realized - but i know the parents helped out each other watching the kids when one was sick, or whatever they had to deal with....

So yes, todays society probably is much more difficult for kids to learn to interact - physical restrictions - and also the structured lives they now (CHOOSE?) to lead with endless organized sports etc..... and thats another can of worms I wont pop open! (and on that note - since when do parents to kids homework? mine sure didn't - but my friends are always doing their kids homework with them? dont get it - thought that is why they were in school????)