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Decision needs to be made
I saw my ortho today. He is certain I need a redo of my ulnar nerve transposition. He said it won't help my shoulder, but he thinks if I wait too long I will lose the feeling in my hand permanently, and he can see that my fingers are beginning to curl.
We discussed TOS and he doesn't feel that TOS surgery is safe or effective. I told him I'd read that in a double crush situation, freeing the nerve in the arm won't be as effective as freeing up both spots. He said this is true, but that he feels I can get relief with the redo. He made absolutely no guarantees, in fact he said that redos are less successful than original surgeries, but he feels I need it done to preserve what I have. I told him I'd think about it and let him know. He said waiting a month or two is not a problem, but waiting six months would be a problem. He did say I should definitely do stretching exercises and posture exercises to help with the shoulder problems. Opinions, anyone? (Yes, I know it's my decision, but I'm torn!) Sue |
well..
my thoughts about any possible TOS surgery would be that you need to know exactly where and what kind of TOS you have. So that would mean seeing some kind of TOS specialist, to pin point what is the specific problem areas for you. TOS compressions can be caused by - any of the scalene muscles clavicle/top rib pec minor oversize bones/ligaments or other structural anomalies scar tissue you didn't have any extra cervical ribs, correct? should show on MRI and xray but sometimes they have been missed if the aren't checked for. and the compressions can be on a nerve or on artery or vein. The dr recommending the ulnar redo isn't the one who did it the first time is he?? --if so second or third opinion. And if not - if you are considering the redo - find the highest rated top surgeon skilled in the area to do it - not a time to let just any surgeon practice on you. I guess I would want to know for sure what is causing the curling before undergoing a surgery redo at the elbow. Sounds like you would benefit from the MRA test- I don't know if a CT or other test could show specifics like what would be needed to get that knowledge... some of the others have had more of the those tests than I did, so maybe they can tell more about them. |
Go with your gut instinct
I like to gather as much information as I can, and then I make my decision.
I am not even close to being healed after my surgery. But the cause of my condition was the combo of bad ergonomics, horrible hours of overwork, and then something about my body that was susceptible to the TOS. It's totally nerve based, and I feel / felt the changes to my brain, literally. These TOS cases have some similarities, but then, we're all individual. So there's not a simple, here's what you do, path. And also, with TOS, it's not ortho, so it's not like there was a bone spur that could be removed, or a torn ligament that could be repaired - as most ortho issues are simply fixing the body issue. With ortho problems usually (if not always?) you can SEE what is wrong and what needs to be fixed. Not so with TOS. This is all about the nerves - unless it is the vascular TOS where they can see the compression. So when I had the TOS surgery, they were just removing the rib, etc., to "make room" for the nerves to heal themselves, have more room in the thoracic inlet / outlet, etc. Very INEXACT if you ask me. Feels like the Middle Ages frankly...gosh, out of all of the illnesses, this seems to be so poorly researched yet...although we've got a few special TOS docs who've dedicated their lives to this. But even they aren't even able to tell me with any certainty the exact nerves involved. They can't explain to me EXACTLY why I have RSD. But ortho issues are different. Can your ortho doc show you exactly what it is he wants to fix? Do you understand it, see it, and have confidence that at least this aspect of your problems might be cured? That would go in my plus chart. With the TOS surgery, I chose a surgeon out of Denver who does these almost every day, literally so many I can't imagine the total number. The docs Sanders, Brantigan and Annest have tens of people here who have had surgery by them, without severe complication. No complications in most who I've met - I just have read a few who had chest / lung complications as there is an issue of deflating the lung, moving the lung over and anesthesia. I guess what I'm saying, is that I personally have a lot of faith and trust in those three doctors in particular. Some people have been cured, and they don't come here anymore. I know of two off of the old board who had surgery by Brantigan and reported afterwards that they were back to a normal life, although not doing the same or as much work...and can you blame them as once you were cured, who would want to trigger it all over again? If it were me, and it was / is, I flew myself to Denver and saw two of the docs. There is a line of medical opinion that any surgery under the neck is wasting your time as the TOS will still keep the person "sick." But who's to say that is true for everyone? Again, I go to can you see what it is the ortho wants to fix? Do you have time / resources to get to Denver and have some more consults just before you go through with this surgery? |
I would run, not walk, to another doctor.
I'm guessing that he thinks TOS surgery is neither safe or effective because he is not qualified to do it or knows little about TOS. As others pointed out in the other thread, TOS experts say that you have to do the top compression (the one closest to the nerve root ) first. If a TOS expert advises you do go forward with the ulnar surgery, I'd believe that it was the correct course of action. Your ortho can only offer you the ulnar surgery, of course he won't recommend the TOS surgery. From what I have read on here, the good TOS (usually vascular or thoracic ) surgeons aren't pushing the surgery,( unless it is a clear cut veinous issue) unless they really feel it is necessary. It's kind of like, if you want to know what the best car is, read Consumer Reports. The Ford dealer (your ortho) is never going to send you to the Toyota dealership. The TOS expert is Consumer Reports....the only one who "gets it". He is not going to try to "sell" you on having TOS surgery, in fact he will send you to a PT to try to help you avoid surgery altogether. Find a TOS expert. |
Totally Agree With "finz"
Any surgery creates scar tissue.
Since you have had one surgery before why "spot" treat it? Get to the root of the problem. But, you have to see the correct physician's and have the correct diagnostic work-up. I have a local friend who has had numerous shoulder and elbow surgeries by an ORTHO and still has serious issues. She won't even think of going to a Neuro cause she likes her ortho and won't look beyond her nose of the actual condition. She just keeps having surgery after surgery. Some people, just as patient's just won't listen or choose not to. Did you know 99.9% of ALL Carpal Tunnel Syndrome cases are actually caused from the cervical or thoracic area nerve compressions? It doesn't mean you don't have CTS it means the base of injury is from the one of the swamp areas that get compressed. Get your self to an expert... If it's bone, go to an ortho If it's nerve, go to a Neurologist If it's vascular, go to a Vascular surgeon |
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A bit of history: First doc - my family doc who sent me for PT. Did that for three months, things got a little better, then seemed to stagnate. Family doc wanted me to see a pain management doc, but I wanted to find the cause of the pain. Second doc - spine guy - said there was nothing wrong in the cervical area except normal arthritic changes. He ordered MRI of my neck and EMG testing. Third doc - neurologist - EMG test showed extremely positive for nerve slowing at the elbow. I saw him several times and he ultimately sent me to Fourth doc - shoulder/arm guy - sent me for shoulder MRI which was basically negative. X-ray showed bone spur on my shoulder. Had ulnar transposition (based upon EMG and tests in office) and arthroscopic shoulder surgery to remove bone spur and "look around". PT again for three months, and felt better, but not pain free. One year after surgery, still with shoulder pain, sent to PT. Helped somewhat, but not the improvement I needed. September of this year, ulnar symptoms returned and got progressively worse. Original surgeon sent me back to PT for 6 weeks, which made elbow and shoulder much worse. He felt that because of the time lapse since the first surgery, as well as office testing, that scar tissue was the cause of my symptoms. Sent me for second opinion, which was the same. He does feel that I also have TOS, but that it is the entrapment at the elbow that is causing numbness and curling of my fingers. I tend to agree about the scar tissue, and should I have this second surgery, I would be vigilent about doing nerve glides as soon as possible. (This wasn't done in my second PT until the end of treatment, and it wasn't suggested that I continue it.) I am trying to manage the TOS symptoms with changes in my physical posture, etc., as well as using Sharon Butler's program. I would be reluctant to have the TOS surgery, and feel that treating in this way is helpful. Sue |
Sue, Sue, Sue
LET'S START FROM THE BEGINNING HERE...
1. I see up on the stickies there is NO reference for a TOS doc n Chicago. Can anyone help Sue here? 2. I'm in California and after 8 years of this massive pain in the *** condition I finally found a doc by means of the good TOS patient's here. 3. Chicago has some FABULOUS hospital's and I'm sure great TOS docs as well. Get on the phone and start calling. Take the phone in bed, print out a sheet of Neurologist's in your immediate area. If they know of no one we'll find you one. 4. DO's have an enormous amount of education on TOS which MD's do NOT get any education unless they go into Neurology or Vascular studies. Most Ortho's DO NOT have education so they don't know how to treat it. I would just hate to see you have another arm surgery of your condition is compressed somewhere else. The scar tissue issue pertains to ALL surgeries. If you have a second one on your elbow your risking scar tissue build up. Keep this in mind. It's risky either way to work on the nerves. My new FAB doc here does NOT recommend me having another TOS surgery (I still have my ribs and scalenes) due to the CRPS and scar tissue build up and redo's after redo's. It took 2 years to diagnose me and I continued to work a year including over time with no doc ever telling me NO NO NO. Everyone here is individual. Keep that in mind. Doesn't mean you have to have your ribs out. You just need an educated Neurologist and correct therapy to begin with. That's FAB you are doing your postural and Butler's exercises. Keep it up. The more you strengthen you core for posture, strengthen your traps and upper body the better off you will be. It doesn't mean go out and pick up weights and bands to strengthen. We TOSer's should not. Use Butler as an example and Feledenkrais. |
It took me approximately 12 different doctors until I got a firm, definite TOS type diagnosis. (This includes different "names" for neurogenic TOS such as brachial plexus neuritis, etc.)
With my newest pain mgt. doc, (he's currently my primary doc for this problem), he is my 30th doctor. What does this mean to you? Don't give up, keep on seeking a good doc until you find one (or more) that you feel are helping you. |
I definitely won't give up on getting treated for TOS, it's just that I'm terrified right now about losing the use of my right hand. I'm afraid if I do nothing until I find the right TOS treatment, I'll lose my ability to play.
I have a friend at church who has total muscle wasting in her hand (from something else) and I showed her my hand today. She said it looks just like hers did. Couldn't I have the ulnar redo and go to Denver in the summer? Sue |
If you have double crush from the TOS, the ulnar redo will not solve anything!
You will only place yourself in the position of possibly building up scar tissue, and potentially making things worse. I know things are scary, and I know a quick fix would be great, but this isn't it. I was in a situation similar to yours. ( not the possibility of losing an art, but an income) I had to decide what was more important, the money from working or my health, and the use of my hands and arms. Well, my hubby and I are trying very hard to care for a family of six on less that 4000 a month, when our mortgage is more than 2300 a month. I know a lot of you know exactly what I mean. But, we both decided if it came to a place that we had to sell our house it is okay. As long as I am obeying my doctors and my instincts, and not working. Perhaps for you it could at least be temporary. Cancel one or two bookings, just long enough to get some testing. Send your info to Denver, and talk to the receptionist over the phone. They know what the doctors there need for tests. There are always ways to do something, if we just stop, and are still, and listen for that voice that speaks the options. So, lol to wrap it up, in my opinion waiting six months on the TOS is potentially devestating. I will pray that you find the answers you need. Trix |
Piano
MUSCLE WASTING TAKES A WHILE.
BESIDES YOUR HANDS ARE VERY TONE FROM PLAYING ALL THESE YEARS. YOU ARE NOT YOUR CHURCH FRIEND. It's your decision to have the ulnar nerve redo or not. I can hear your scared. Just keep in mind what these TOS patients are trying to tell you, K? All of us have or are going through the same obstacles as you. The more pressure we put on ourselves the more stressed we get. The stress creates our muscles to contract and press on the nerves. So, WE ALL have to practice calm and take the time to make the right decisions for ourselves. Keep on researching, listen to experts and you'll make the right decision for you. Quote:
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Please see my post to Rogergayla. I am in so much pain, I can't copy it here...
My intent though is the same for you, in that, as a bunch of people on the internet, we can share our experience, give support to eachother, and try to understand eachother as we battle this very complicated, rare and for most doctors, misunderstood condition. (Syndrome actually, a set of symptoms.) What we can't do is GUESS what a person should do. We don't have the full picture - your job duties, the hours, how you developed TOS, if you have TOS for sure, how your orthopedic problems complicate the picture, IF the orthopedic elbow is even orthopedic or TOS just acting like it, what your finances are like, and on and on. Only YOU have the GUT INSTINCT to decide what to do once you've listened and read all that you can. NONE of us is rich enough to just fly off to Denver. We have programs, help for those who need for flying costs, ways to save on hotels, etc. If you post that you need help, I know people here can search old threads for help and ideas. One tries to get to the nearest TOS top doc. Why? Because most docs don't know what they're talking about in relation to TOS. Do you need elbow surgery? Like I already posted, I don't know what your MRI looks like - did you go over the image with the doctor, or have him draw out on paper what it is he's trying to accomplish with another surgery, and does that make sense to you? Did you ask him if FOR SURE this is an elbow problem, and not a nerve problem from the brachial plexus area? And WHY or WHAT facts he bases that on? And how exactly would that affect hand wasting??? I don't get the relationship there - can the doctor guarantee you that the elbow surgery will alleviate ANY of the hand problems??? You ask if you "can" do the surgery. Each of us has to take responsibility for our own treatment plan. It does get scary. It does get frustrating. I've lost everything. Don't you think I did not want to get to the point that I couldn't be a trial lawyer anymore, drive a sports car, lose my beach house, wear pajamas all day and live in horrific pain? As Olecyn says, we've all been there, or are there, or are about to be there...we're in the same boat. You've got to do whatever it is you do for strength - do you have a faith? Or meditate? Pray? Or just do one of those plus / minus charts - what do you have to lose or gain by skipping a TOS consult and going straight to the elbow surgery? Be advised you can cause more nerve damage, you can cause RSD to get started (read up on that one, as many of us here have that, including me. Mine came from waiting for surgery for four years.) If I could do anything over, it would be getting to Denver as fast as I could. I had to wait, first cuz I didn't know about this site or that I had TOS, second cuz I am work comp and tried to fight for it and third I simply thought waiting wouldn't hurt. I was WRONG in my case. I would have stopped or slowed the nerve damage, I am sure of that now. So do your chart, post for help on flying / staying in Denver - and btw, you only need to stay for one day's visit - EVERYTHING was done for me in one day. And what they say about copying your records and getting it to the doc ahead of time is true, then they just decide what they need to do the day you're there. I would recommend seeing TWO of the Denver docs that day. Also, if you have no insurance, let them know that, the docs are VERY compassionate people. They have dedicated their LIVES to this rare disease, and they risk lawsuits for these surgeries which they perform every week, all of the time - (as does the hospital. Important fact.) Please keep coming back. Let us know what you're feeling, what you decide, and feel free to ask for specific help, such as the hotel costs, etc. That, we do know!!! |
I hear you guys and I know you are trying to help. And you're right - I'm damn scared.
I am calling Dr. Sanders' office tomorrow to see if I can get an appointment. I'll try to fly out there for a day. I do have friends who live there, so I have a place to stay. I hear Frontier Airlines is relatively inexpensive. Again, thank you everyone for helping me to see a path. Sue |
Best of luck -
It's a big step but in the long run you'll be better off seeing an expert and finding the truth instead of running around and wasting time going from doc to doc. |
Going to Denver
I talked to Dr. Sanders yesterday - what a nice guy! He's pretty sure I have pec minor syndrome. I'm seeing him on February 25!! He says I still may need the ulnar nerve redo, but we'll talk about that when I see him. I won't have any surgery this time, but will schedule it for later. I'm so excited - thanks for giving me a push, everyone!
sue |
PP:
You are a piano player. I'm willing to bet you have bad posture while playing/practicing ala computer posture...i.e. hunched/rounded shoulders. Pec Minor Syndrome is a tight (shortened) Pec Minor which rounds the shoulders and compresses the BP. If so...STOP THAT! Get out some posture manuals and learn what to do to REVERSE that. Some tips.... Get a foam roller. ($15-25) Lie on it with your butt at one end and your head on the other. Let your shoulders roll back OFF the foam roller. This will OPEN your chest and reverse any rounding IF that is a contributing factor. If you can get some relief from that...you have your first CLUE. Not saying complete relief...SOME. Report back |
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I've made changes in my playing to get my shoulders as far back as possible. I now use a keyboard as often as possible, and set it at a height which allows me to stand to play with my body as straight as possible. I'm also very aware of my posture at all times. I've used a foam roller for over a year now and it does feel good! My PT has tried to physically push my shoulders back when I'm lying on my back, and it just doesn't happen, the muscle is that tight. In fact, when I lie on my back the right shoulder doesn't touch the surface from the shoulder to the bottom of the scapula. |
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be Very Careful With Strengthening Excercises. I Also Have Poor Posture, And Was Told By My Surgeon Not To Obsess Over That. Right Now You Need To Find A Doc Who Knows Tos. Worry About Eerything Else Bit By Bit In Your Healing Journey.
Don't Strengthen Now At The Expense Of Your L;ong Term Well Being. |
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The above said, I have always maintained that one listen to one's own body for indications of what is or is not appropriate. If one doesn't at least TRY, one will never know. And sometimes trying requires a LOT of effort (time/patience). As I said in another post...I did not see/feel improvement for at least 6-9 months. I had to trust the process and what was told and my own education about the body's mechanics. It makes perfect sense that merely standing straight is not sufficient IF the shoulders are rounded forward and held there by tight pec minors. It makes perfect sense if the opposing back (rhomboids/mid-traps) muscles are disinclined to hold the shoulders back because they are weakened by the short pec minors. The body becomes used to this position and in time compresses everything in the vicinity. Open the area up...reverse the compression...pull the shoulders back and KEEP them held back and voila...less/no compression! I agree, not everyone may be able to tolerate the work necessary...but to not even try IMHO is a set up for disaster. The simple act of lying on a foam roller as suggested earlier should be helpful...if that can't be tolerated, one can lie on the floor and try to let the shoulder drape back...work up to a rolled up towel and progress from there. Progression is key. I did it with towel, then roller then roller with weights and then they gym with cable rows and the like which strengthened the back muscles while lying on the roller stretched the pec minors to allow them to lengthen so that the stronger back could then hold them in the corrected (held back) position. This does not apply to everyone but it applies to many and I will not give up repeating this very important thing. There were MANY days I thought this was all pointless. There were MANY days I had the 2 steps back and couldn't see the 1 step forward. The progression sped up in the past 6 months because one has to just PERSEVERE. To give up was NOT an option for me. Please do NOT discourage people from trying. I do NOT believe that the doctors are NOT recommending efforts like the above at least to TRY to see if they can be tolerated. Baby steps. I know my doctor promised nothing but did say it would take a LOT of dedication and hard work. Same with the PT. Both said many have given up and they both were disillusioned by their lack of persistence. Both are pleased with my sticktoitness and have used it with others to encourage them to keep at it. The PT has even named a maneuver after me because of something I found that helped me that she agreed would help others "get it." |
I definitely agree on the baby steps, patience and listening to what you body is telling you..
Muscle tensing is a gentle form of strengthening where no weight is pulled or lifted. I use that often. |
First, to Humorme, I am so glad that you have joined our group because you truly challenge me intellectually and visually and so I like that burst of challenge! Thank you! Now for the substance, let's rumble!!!
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But I really thing that whatever is hurting, we need to take a close look at the repetitive movement that is involved and consider if the person has something wrong with their own body, or something wrong with the equipment that they are using, or something wrong with the expectations of the country in expecting people to do this movement so often and with such intesity that the body is not made to do that and perhaps to change the job such that the person has either more rest times in between (to allow the same work to go on, like a pianist), or, as in produce packaging, to change up the various jobs and share them around so that no one person is doing the same thing, all day and night long. Encouraging good health, good PT, good accident prevention and helping workers to get back to work, whether as a cabbage picker or a world class pianist is the same. To care about the human being and to do what is right for that human. To treat each "worker" as if the "worker" were your very own child. |
"One minute the body may tolerate very well something like the foam roller and another minute it may not."
I DON'T KNOW ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE BUT IN MY CASE MY BODY IS CONSISTENT IN WHAT IT TOLERATES ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. WHAT HURTS TODAY TO DO HURT YESTERDAY AND THE DAY BEFORE AND SO ON. "And sometimes trying requires a LOT of effort (time/patience)." ONCE AGAIN I'M JUST SPEAKING FOR MYSELF BUT IT ISN'T ABOUT TIME & PATIENCE, THE ISSUE IS PAIN. " But I do NOT like reading posts that say "don't do X" As you all say...EACH of us is different....Neither of us KNOW the person posting and THEIR particular and unique situation" TRUE, BUT I THINK A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN THROUGH SIMILAR ATTEMPTS AT THERAPIES WITH BAD RESULTS FROM THE SAME EXERCISES. WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND ARE AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE DISEASE PROCESS AND HAVE DIFFERENT LIMITS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, WE SHOULDN'T JUST RUSH OUT AND TRY EVERYTHING THAT SOMEONE HAS CLAIMED WORKED FOR THEM. WE DEFINITELY DON'T WANT ANYONE HURTING THEMSELVES ANYMORE THAN THEY ALREADY ARE!!! "The body becomes used to this position and in time compresses everything in the vicinity. Open the area up...reverse the compression...pull the shoulders back and KEEP them held back and voila...less/no compression!" AFTER READING WLADISLAW ELLIS MD'S ARTICLE ON TOS, IT APPEARS TO BE A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST OPENING UP THE AREA OF COMPRESSION. I SUGGEST READING IT, IT HAS SOME EXCELLENT INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT. "The PT has even named a maneuver after me because of something I found that helped me that she agreed would help others "get it." WHAT IS THIS MANUEVER??? |
In general, although we may suggest or recommend home treatments, meds, types of therapy, courses of treatment and the like, other than the ice paks and epsom salts bath type of remedies posters are reminded to check with their Dr's or PT's about what is best in THEIR individual situation.
Many TOSer's can turn their condition around if caught EARLY enough - that is the key! And that time frame probably differs from person to person, depending on type, cause and severity of TOS, and certainly the length of time it takes from onset to dx and treatment. Inappropriate PT can and often does make TOS worse, and what is appropriate for one may be disastrous for another. It is VERY important to find a trained Dr, PT, chiropractor, massage therapist or other medical professional who is knowlegeable about TOS and has experience with it. It's good to hear you are having success with re-training your posture. Your methods sound much like the Edgelow technique - is this what your PT is using? Many have had good results using his technique, although it does take patience and effort, you are right! Why not simply share your story about the progress you've made since starting this approach? There's no need to make others feel as if they haven't tried hard enough - that's up to the individual to decide, and most here have been through the gamut of therapies and treatments, believe me. And many TOSer's (myself included) will have serious difficulty ever rebuilding muscle strength, due to hypermobility - lax tendons and ligaments, plus sick or damaged nerves don't make for a good prognosis. People tend to get their backs up when told what they should do, or should have done - but if you share what WORKED for you, you're bound to have more willing listeners - and at least a few interested in finding out more. Just my thoughts. Peace, beth :) |
humorme,
I was wondering what the maneuver is too. Can you describe it? |
oh come on - now your just teasing us by not describing it:p!
did PT pull your arms down & back behind you and stretch/hold them? Did you ever have top rib mobilization or Nimmo ?{kind of mix of TRP & slow deep pressure massage} When I was all locked up with upper body spasms, my chiro did those for me, it was amazing how such simple things could make such a difference. At that time he worked on the pec major, scalenes, SCM. A week later he got the INF Stim and it really helped with the lingering tightness. |
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Hmm, I'm thinking must be some sort of semi isometric motion of "squishing" the hackie sack that works some certain rib or lower traps/lats muscles.
I'll have to look at one of our anatomy charts. |
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By all means people should get familiar with their body to see what it may need. Hence...listen to your body. Get out a "Henry" and push him around and see what might help you. I glanced at the one article recommended. Every article I've read has similar concepts...the main..."decompression" whether through PT, or surgery. Opening up the TO is, IMHO, a decompression...at least strengthening my back allowed my nerves to be decompressed such that I'm not in the pain I was once it. Do I still have flare ups? Yeah...but not as frequently and not as intense and usually when I do I know why. I also know I must keep up the work for the rest of my life. |
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" But I do NOT like reading posts that say "don't do X" As you all say...EACH of us is different....Neither of us KNOW the person posting and THEIR particular and unique situation"
[quote=KLS2007;205961]TRUE, BUT I THINK A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN THROUGH SIMILAR ATTEMPTS AT THERAPIES WITH BAD RESULTS FROM THE SAME EXERCISES. WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND ARE AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE DISEASE PROCESS AND HAVE DIFFERENT LIMITS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, WE SHOULDN'T JUST RUSH OUT AND TRY EVERYTHING THAT SOMEONE HAS CLAIMED WORKED FOR THEM. WE DEFINITELY DON'T WANT ANYONE HURTING THEMSELVES ANYMORE THAN THEY ALREADY ARE!!!/QUOTE] I agree we are all different. I've said that in my earlier posts. What works for one, MAY not work for another. It IS individual. I merely relayed MY situation to YOU because it appeared to me IMHO that you had the same, if not similar, situation to mine. If so, you MIGHT benefit from things I did. But again, I qualified my post for you to TRY...if it wasn't appropriate for you...only YOU would be able to determine that. I was ****** because someone chimed in with "don't strengthen" and I thought that comment was totally inappropriate. If my suggestion to you is not appropriate for YOU, by all means don't do it...if it is not worthy of even an effort to try...don't try either. I'd hate to think though of missed opportunities...things I "could have tried" but didn't because of some notion. As I said...YOU are your best healer. YOU live with YOUR body and know its limitations and strengths. My apologies to KLS....with the above I had you confused with Pianoplayer who did say they suspected pec minor with her. Most, if not all of my comments were IMHO appropriate for her. I have no clue what your (KLS) situation is other than what you described in other posts. You did indicate that you weren't ready for the foam roller. Baby steps for you. Bottom line: There is a purpose to the PT taping your back (if that was ever done and with most it was done). Decompression is the goal of PT and Surgery. It can happen with PT and exercise. It may not as well. No guarantees. The article you (KLS) referred to said surgery should be a LAST resort. Most would agree with that. If something causes too much pain, it's probably not working/helping. The question is what is too much AND what is appropriate discomfort/pain vs. what is inappropriate discomfort/pain. Some things like stretching a tight muscle involve discomfort/pain that is merely a consequence and not necessarily "bad." Sometimes it may harm a nerve innervated in the muscle and sometimes it will not. Care and attention to what is going on. Listen to the body. Try things, don't try things. It's up to you. |
This thread was for piano girl to decide if she should have a second ortho elbow surgery, or have her BP surgery first. She's been left cold.
So the goal of the TOS PT session is to get as much good movement done as possible, without calling up for the inflammatory response. Many of us here, myself included, have lived in horrific pain for years, and are bedridden much of the time due to the high pain. It is fine and dandy if someone has TOS and has worked to a point in their PT where they don't need meds and can go off to work. |
Humoreme
Please note that I did not say not to strengthen, I said to be very careful with strengthening excercises.
Terribly sorry my opinion ****** you off, I was only trying to give pianoplayer another point oif veiw. Pianoplayer, have you come to any decisions with regard to how you are going to handle this? Don't forget what Tam said, post for help looking for good airfares etc. if you need it. Good luck. My prayers are with you. |
Boy - lots here to read and respond to!
I've been through 4 separate courses of PT. The first was before any surgery was done. It did not relieve my symptoms. The second was after surgery was done. It did not improve my symptoms, except for those caused by surgery. After two months, my symptoms worsened. PT was discontinued and I was sent to pain management. The third time helped slightly, but not enough to continue. I can't even remember why I was sent to the third therapy! But, that one was where I started using the foam roller. (However, I have to be very careful because stretching my arms too far causes symptoms.) The fourth PT was this fall, when my hand started getting numb very frequently and my shoulder hurt more than ever. This PT made everything worse very quickly. It was at this point that I began considering surgery again. Since that time I have done a ton of research on TOS and pec minor syndrome and have used Sharon Butler's self-care program, as well as making changes in my playing, posture, and scheduling. For me, the strengthening part of PT caused an increase in symptoms. Now, I look forward to meeting with Dr. Sanders who will evaluate for TOS and Pec Minor (which he is pretty sure I have) and will also give his opinion on whether the elbow redo is a good idea. Then, I'll decide what to do. Sue |
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