Losing My Appetite- Eaten Meat Recalled
 

So, this isn't as bad as the pig brain saga, never the less....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514

Consider this
 

This news article was very appropriate around my house. I've been "discussing" an alternative to not knowing what is in your food chain. Check this out: http://www.eatwild.com/

If you look at the bar on the left you can find out how to find your local supporters of this action.
I'd like to see a discussion over this.

My opthalmic plastic surgeon actually suggested this idea to me because of all the autoimmune issues I have. She wants me to take out as much of the processed food as I can. She also suggested 3-4 grams of fish oil (slowly added to my regimen). I've worked up to 3 grams a day plus an extra serving of fish each week. I was to take out the 2 doses of Indomethacin I usually take in preparation for surgery. I haven't taken it in several days and except for one finger, I can't tell the difference.

Billye

They just had something on one of the major search engine home pages, I forget which one...on the best 10 foods to buy organic....the ones that contain the most 'garbage'.

My husband was at Walmart and picked up a package of Wild Alaskan Salmon....(then noticed it said 'Product of China') LOL.

Generally free range antibiotic, hormone free eggs are widely available as is organic milk...we have a lot of organic dairies around here. I do have my own yogurt maker, but at times am too exhausted to make the mess.

I drink reverse osmosis water....have no choice, as our water is full of farm chemicals....any one in the country around here has at least high nitrates, so most of us just install reverse osmosis systems.

Eating organically is harder than one thinks...it is labor intensive and pricey, but, it probably is a very good idea.

I just wish we would get truth in labeling for food, nutraceuticals and drugs.

I just went and bought my new bottle of sublingual B-12....I had liquid, now I have pills, much better tasting....hubby is taking it, and also on a kick to lose weight as he noticed he is sore all the time and now losing the hair on his legs (he was always pretty hairy)....Guess what he is on....Lipitor. So he is determined to get off that....I have been nagging him for a year now.

Goshes I wish there were farmers'
 

markets accessable year round? YOu can get good stuff directly from the 'maker' so to speak. It's not cheap, but simpler?
Honestly, no food stuffs are safe anymore, nor should we expect them to be. The calculations regarding safety vs. death are calculated to the "PROFIT" nth degree...ergo us 'sensitive' folks just have to be 'careful out there'!
I got my DH a water filter for his use on his birthday recently, he loves it, thinks the water tastes better and all. But, I feel we have a very above average water- tested water here, and I want those little things in there to keep being there! WHY? Because IF I eliminate them, then I mite become susceptable to THEM as well. IF I can keep some 'things' I am tolerant of in my system and still be tolerant of them, that is that many fewer 'things' I could get sick from, in my opinion.
Give me things I CAN become tolerant to! Sound silly? Not really, I am just trying to be realistic. As A kid, I was in 'trials' I think about allergy intolerances, and in 'treatments' for same. Stuff didn't work for me, nor for anyone else I gathered...It was a kind of homeopathic kind of therapy. I still react as bady to those allergens now as I did then. Sigh.
Foods? Same things - how fish are fed, caught and processed these days is far different from 5, 10, and even 30 years ago! What is actually caught or raised is different as well. Beef, pork and poultry the same thing. Our options tho, are kind of limited? We could just not eat?
NOPE? Didn't think so.. So, we take our chances trying to be as informed as possible and choose accordingly.
WHO KNEW IT WOULD BE SOO HARD TO KEEP THINGS SIMPLE???? Hugs all -j

Thanks for starting this. Very interesting... I have wondered if changing our way of eating might help improve my health. Our eating habits are not the best, we eat out a lot, etc.

I do wish we had some means of raising at least some of our own food, but in a city, where houses are right on top of one another, that is a tough order to fill...

I am supposed to make a concerted effort to eat healthier and eat less meat and poultry, after the recent findind of elevated Uric Acid. I also live with a steakaholic...

You know what I would like to see are some suggestions on how city people can raise their own produce in small areas, so you know what you are getting in at least a portion of your diet...

Thanks all,
Cathie

That is great--I take a double strength one each day, sometimes two.
That is how I can get away with only an Aleve liquigel once a week or so (when the weather gets awful and changes rapidly).

And I will not buy or eat ground beef... haven't for years. I do sirloins or flat irons in stew and that is it for red meat here.

I don't trust any ground meat anymore, not even in grocery stores, after a Dateline show I saw that tested meat purchased from stores which did not clean their equipment properly. I don't get ice in drinks in restaurants either.

Ugh I live if So Cal and I cannot believe that story on the ground beef. And a lot of it what to school kids and was likely already eaten.

Thats enough for me to swear off ground beef. I sure will miss cheeseburgers. :mad:

So sad because you see who's getting the awful meat or whatever
it's called. This has happened around here as well. J is right to bad
it can''t be all year round. In this area my children's friends who
remain,are Professors,Doctor',Nurses or Farmers.Bless those farrmers
are like the wonderful article Billye had,they work hard,..Go in the stores
and I've did the same thing C husband did,good thing I read labels.
Dr. John said the organic farmers charge more but well worth it..Especially
if you know them,my sons friends may make more money,but someone
in the farmers family usually has to work outside the business,because
they need health insurance...Remember when meat was full of pencillen
and people who were allergic,like me felt a wee bit pukey,and rashes,
and who knows perhaps death and this is't meant to be funny.Like c
I have all kinds of good thing machine, but right now can't use them
and when I can to tired,or hurt to much. :eek::eek: Sue

Excellent thread Cyclelops:

I haven't eaten meat (beef I mean, in any way shape or form for over 10 years now). And after reading that article, I believe I won't eat it for anothr 10 years (If I make it that long).

But there is an alternative for you guys and gals who enjoy a good hamburger on a roll with lettuce and tomatoes.

They have Boca Burgers, garden burgers, all kind of veggie stuff. I don' eat them, because I jus don't. No special reason.

There's also whole grain pasta with cooked tomatoe sauce (source of lycopene).

And believe me, if I had a backyard or a place to build a hydroponic garden, I'd do i in a heartbeat and grow ALL my fruits and vegetables.

I'll never forget when we went to Disneyworld years ago. They take you on an underground trip where they show you where they grow their organic stuff. I never was so impressed in all my life. All this produce (and you KNOW how I love my produce), well it was in WATER, and it was like an underground world. Don't know if they continue to do this it impressed the heck out of me.

I wash my fruits and veggies very carefully (to get an pesticide residue off), but I know that there's stuff that seeped in. I just try to do the best I can, and when I can afford to, and I'm in NYC, there's a few good reputable organic places.

But the pre-packaged stuff, including those burgers. well, god only knows what the kids in school are being fed. Processed chicken nuggets, boxes pizzas, and don't get me started on the vending machines placed around schools.

The next generation of kids better watch out because we are going to outlive them.

The dirty dozen (vegetables and fruits that have high level of pesticide even after washing)

apples
bell peppers
celery
cherries
imported grapes
nectarines
peaches
pears
potatoes
red raspberries
spinach
strawberries

Do you know of anything with LOW levels of ANYTHING??

Hey, I'll try anything.

Mel

Thanks Herb for that list....interesting
 

in that there are only two 'keeper' veggies on the list. Most are considered 'tender' veggies.
I have to say that where I live things are sort of strict at many area markets. Stuff HAS to be grown within 150 miles from the county I live in. Believe me, farmers and growers of all kinds come from exactly that DISTANCE to get their slots and spaces! Should they claim to be 'organic' they have to provide some sort of certification to sell AS ORGANIC. Don't know the criteria but I could probably find it all. We usually have about a 3-1 ratio of organic types to standard truck farmers. You always have a choice in season. I have to say now, that I'm very fortunate...I've a giant 18 cu.ft. chest freezer came with my house when we bought it. I've learned how to freeze more foodstuffs than I'd ever imagined possible. I can have FRESH frozen Berries rite now IF I want! If I lose power for more than 3 days, well, I'm toast! Do some sort of free for all for the neighborhood, I guess. KNOCK WOOD QUICK! Thing is, I get the freshest stuff when it's fresh, clean it, freeze it, and enjoy it all year!
More importantly, we find dairy folks and home-grown beef, pork, chicken, and even fish folks at these markets! Their stuff is not cheap, but it IS GOOD! Very GOOD! Believe me, the real home raised stuff, not manufactured raised foods are soo good! We do lose some tho, to the local Whole Foods Stores tho...SIGH! It's just this danged winter! Access to greens and other fresh stuff is soo hard...
As for the meat recall? Glad I'm not a school kid? Hugs to all - j

The fruits and veggies which have the least amoint of residual pesticides are:

asparagus
avocados
bananas
brocolli
cauliflower
sweet corm
kiwis
mangos
onions
papaya
pineapples
sweet peas

Hi Herb
 

And thanks for the dirty dozen.

I married my husband in 65,I was 19 and we moved to a little house,
behind my Brother & sister-law's Organic farm down hill from the compost
hill..Well her husband worked as did mine..This was her hobby,I get the
tickles because there farm was one of the Original houses in the area.
Along came very plush houses,well nobody even though it looked very nice
was not thrilled with the farm. I loved it,all kinds of fruit trees, and no matter
what you wanted veggie wise it was there,and some I have never heard
of,it was so good and the beets and such were just huge..Lot's of people
throught Organic food was weird back then...Good free food is what
I throught...But that Compost pile was a bit much when there was bit
of wind in the summer.

Now my family in Mo. thought it was really weird,no beets that big,wasn't
natual and had no taste,what..For Mi. folks this was Livonia,Mi,they owned
10 acre's..They wouldn't sell any land to builder's or to anyone. It
had Deer,well every critter including skunks who would have babies behind
are little house,good thing we put up tomato juice,because the dogs and cats got to close to the baby skunks...That was hard work,but I was young
and boy I wish I felt that good now...Mel the Bocca Chicken is really good,
and we eat Bocca Burgers once in a while. My sister-in-law another one
retired got bored ,went to work for the school lunch program..They
were always recalling that meat,she said she felt sorry for the kids on
vouchers,they had to eat the food,was all the got,not much at home.
She had to quit to many bugs. (sorry about that) Hugs to all Sue :eek:
Am I the only one going home bound crazy...

Well, you just made my day.

I LIVE on asparagus. Eat it practically every day.

I also bought some brussel sprouts (fresh) the other day. I have to use BEANO when I eat them because they are a bit gassy, but otherwise I'm happy with the asparagus.

What about spaghetti squash?. I would buy one, clean it thoroughly, then half it, scoop out seeds, turn it over, put in water and steam it until it's fork tender.

Then you take forks and scoop it out as if you are take out strands of spaghetti. Looks like spaghetti too!!! Add some Smart Balance spread, a bit of garlic and you're in squash heaven.

Not only is asparagus good makes you pee..Bob can eat if he agrees
to have a beano.ha Thanks for spaghetti sqush idea Bob will love that,
J I also freeze a lot as well.. Now if my hands would work better,oh
well.. Sue

Omnivore's Dilemma
 

I can't recommend this book enough, about how we eat and what our choices really are.

My endo wanted to put me on Lipitor in November, but my cardio said that I'm a prime candidate to get worsening neuropathy. Just cut out processed food and trans fats, he said. So, I've now had 2 months of eating complex carbs, nuts, and lots of fish, and my cholesterol is down, I've lost 5 pounds, and I'm truly enjoying eating this way.

Slow Food is a group that might interest some of us: http://www.slowfood.com/

I have this 'organic' experiment going....and it is hugely labor intensive...You have to find a way around pesticide, herbicide and fertilizer. Fertilizer (compost) is the easiest, but you can only apply it in fall after all crops are off...and it must be 'treated or seasoned.' Herbicides I have never used, and I have a weedy garden...you can use mulch or plastic weed barrier. Pesticides you can companion plant.

I have apple trees, and there is no way you can raise an organic apple....but you can peel them and I am sure that helps.

I have not sprayed the apple trees, but this year I will have to, but at least I choose what to apply and how much.

I have cherries, and those you can do organic...but you have to put these nets over them to not have birds eat them. I do plan on putting in a few pear trees. I raise non-treated raspberries, and have never in my entire life used pesticides on them. I also have rhubarb. Strawberries can also be done without pesticides.

I have a terrible time raising cabbage, brocolli or any cruciferous veggie without some kind of pesticide. They are terribly susceptible to cabbage worms...I would think that perhaps nets may work, I don't know...

I tried this last year,and I tried all kinds of stuff including jalepeno laced water...I understand you can co-plant them with some kinds of plants and flowers that repel cabbage moths. I will try that this year. I have a chart as to what to interplant with what to deter pests.

Green beans, all kinds of peppers, beets, spinach, lettuce do fine...no help.

I have yet to raise nice corn...sunflowers did great.

Squash used to do well, now we have invasions of squash bugs...not squash borers....This hard winter may kill squash bugs, (it is killing me) as they have moved up from the south and do not like hard winters. Squash bugs descend like locusts and if you get them, kiss any viney crop goodbye or spray or powder them...I have heard you can coplant to avoid them and I will try that....I was lucky and got in my crops early...I planted very early and got pumpkins in early August, and in mid August the squash bugs hit with a vengence, by then all my squash, of all types were ready to get stored. My cukes did OK, but the squash bugs also eat cuke vines...if it is a vine, they eat it.

Rutabagas and turnips do fine. I have not done carrots but I think they do fine. Radishes do fine.

I have not tried potatoes, but I do know from living in a potato growing region further north, that they are heavily pesticided and herbicided

Tomatoes are my mainstay and do very well....

To be certain your foods are organic, Oregon Tilth certification is best, and it requries that no artificial fertilizer, or pesticides be on the food for 3 years....you can only apply compost in the fall....you can look up Oregon Tilth and it gives you the criteria. Water sources for your food are tested as are adjoining fields....because I am surrounded by heavily treated typical farmland, my 'garden' would probably not meet Oregon Tilth criteria....I would need a buffer zone and I don't have enough land for that, I don't think...they don't really specify how big the buffer needs to be. I do have over 100 feet from the farmer's lot line, but not from the road, (road chemicals, oil etc).

My water nitrate level is 25ppm. The state cut off level for a mandated reverse osmosis system is 10ppm. There is no safety level for adults but infants exposed to 10ppm, can develop methmyglobimenia, which is blue baby syndrome and if not caught can be fatal....I can't imagine that once you are past infancy that nitrates in your water are harmless. A fish can not live in water over 25ppm. My beta needs to have RO water or bottled water.

Our water is often sold as bottled water....we have a lot of water bottling plants including the areas that are in sand country and have heavy pesticide application. I am sure that bottled water is tested for a lot of chemicals, but it is not pure either. We can't expose ourselves to this nitrate, nor to the atrizine and potentially arsenic on well water systems and any one with a well should have at least nitrates tested for. Nitrate levels and atrazine go together.

City water drinkers have their water tested by the municipality. Well water drinkers have no option but to take care of their own water quality....only upon selling property is your water tested....public health nurses do come out to new moms, and inform them of nitrate water testing. If you sell a home on a private well system, you must test your water for coliform bacteria and it must be zero, and for nitrates, which must be below 10ppm. My well is pretty deep for the area. Wells are recommended to be tested yearly for coliform and chlorinated as needed.

Natural means nothing....even organic can mean nothing.

We have no input into foreign foods or even an idea of what regulations they apply. We don't even know what is foreign or contains foreign ingredients. European food is likely to exceed our standards, with the exception of British beef or lamb.

You can shop at organic food stores, which, I would think would have to be responsible in terms of their reputation.

There is one commonly available wheat flour company that is American....they are not organic tho. You can buy a lot of specialty flours at the regular grocery stores, and any one going gluten free has used these...I have a pantry full.

Cooking oils are another issue....I suppose Olive Oil is best.

You can get premixed gluten free stuff, but I don't know how much of it is organic....I imagine they make it and it isnt' cheap.

We have organic milk, cheese and eggs readily available in regular stores here. You can buy organic yogurt, but I often make mine....WHEN I feel energetic, which is not right now.

Coffee is an issue and you can buy organic coffee. I don't know how organic orange juice is, but I try to buy at least Florida orange juice....the bigger organic food chains carry all kinds of organic fruit juice. But expect to pay.

You can buy 'transitional' which is what I would call my garden produce....everything washes down eventually....so I have no real hope of achieving real organic food....they use too much stuff on adjacent fields. I still get the bugs tho, so, it must be less poisoned than the corn or soybeans around me. At least, my food is not directly sprayed or dusted.

I am surprised any fish are in the river, with the nitrates in my aquifer...but they are. I have heard mixed reviews on wild versus farm raised fish.

It is either very labor intensive to do your own organic, or very expensive to buy premade....even fresh organic is pricey.

I know you can buy 'organic' meat, including ground beef and ground round....but the butcher admits, you really can't rule out mad cow. Our meat, unlike Japan's is not tested. They test very few cattle and most meat is so mixed up....every thing is so mixed up....stuff can be grown here and sent to China for processing and visa versa. I have nagged and nagged about the idea of processing meat in any place that does deer. I don't see the issue of chronic wasting disease as all that different from mad cow, as they are both spongiform encephalopathies, and bovine to human transmission as well as elk to human transmission of the disese to me, negates all claims that there is no bovine to deer transmission or visa versa....and you can not remove prions from contaminated equipment. You can't 'kill' or 'sanitize' a prion off of something. I can not understand for the life of me, why they insist on mixing huge batches of meat from all over the country or world in the same equipment. The less your meat is cut up the better. Some cuts are better. More muscled cuts are the best. I used to love prime rib...still like it, but gave it up...now the choice is filet mignon.

Then I have my weeks or months when I am too sick or fatigued and I simply have to resort to yogurt or pudding and at times, no it isnt organic...I have had my times that I owe my life to Ensure....organic or not!

I think our bodies have the ability to adjust to toxins and germs to a great extent, it is just we are so blasted with toxins these days and we have no idea where they are coming from or what they even are.

Can you imagine 'downed cows' in hot lunch meat??? Come on, where are these people's morals?

I know this may sound like a stupid question but I have to ask it anyway. I'm a city gal. Born and raised. Now my grandpa had a farm in Northport Long Island. We used to go when I was 5. I have no idea what he did on this farm because I can't remember anything from that time.

So what happens if you want to grow your own vegetables, like lettuce, tomatoes, zucchini, squash, etc..

How come there is pesticide on everything that is NOT ORGANIC??

Where the hell do the bugs come from, that farmers have to spray everything?

I have seen movies where crop dusters are spraying pesticides over fields.

Isn't this stuff poison?? why the heck are cropdusters allowed to spray this?

See, I know this sounds stupid, but I have absolutely no knowledge of farming and I just thought that if someday, I have a planter in front of the house, that I might be able to grow basil, or rosemary, or SOMETHING.

My landlord grows grapes right underneath my back window. You should see the vines in the back yard, a big trellis (I think it's called a trellis?)

Hundreds of bunches of grapes grow all summer and then he cuts them down and gives us platters of the stuff. I have to be careful with grapes but I tasted them. OH MY GOD, sweeter than anything in the grocery store.

He also has big pots of stuff in the garden in the backyard. He grows everything. And he grows these 7 foot long zuchini things and he used to give me the squash flowers (except when he handed me them, they were full of bugs inside) and I screamed and ran away and he thought I was nuts but he laughed his head off.

Where the heck do all the bugs come from. Can't we just eradicate bugs??

Don't all gang up on me for asking this stupid question, but you guys are farmers, you know about nitrate in water, ,.....and I don't have a clue.

I just go to the produce stand and buy what's there. I would love to be able to grow stuff, but not if there are going to be bugs inside them. Yuck.

I am sorry for going on a never ending rant about this...however, we lost 50,000 farmers in our state alone since 1970. You used to buy a lot more stuff that was grown, processed and sold locally. I don't know what was wrong with that system. It kept people on small farms, it kept a way of life that is totally gone now. We had a lot less poo per square mile.

Website on this issue---I can not vouch for the facts, but they sound pretty realistic in my experience.

Then some one got the idea to centralize production of stuff.

http://www.familyfarmdefenders.org/p...ureInWisconsin

Milk used to be picked up and taken to local dairies and cheese factories....to a great extent a lot of that still goes on, for us, but California has taken over a lot of milk production. Milk gets 'made' in one place, mixed and processed with milk from other places, poured in tanks some where else and shipped and bottled elsewhere. The milk from hundreds if not thousands of farms can be in one gallon.

We are not talking about IVIG here....where that IS the concept you are going for.

Meat used to be picked up and killed and processed and sold locally...not so much any more. Now thousands of cows can make up a pound of ground beef. One nasty cow and it is all contaminated in a dozen states or more.

We have a lot of big veggie operations, big canneries with names you know.

But we have lost a quarter of our farmland.

It is all monopolies now....very few companies own everything.

If you live in the city, there is still a lot you can do. You don't need to worry about nitrates. Nitrates are essentially the breakdown of cow manure, or any manure...we get a lot of chicken manure here too. One chicken containment building can contain several hundred thousand chickens in cages stacked one on top of the other with the poor birds pooing on each other and subjected to light 24/7 so they lay more eggs.

Then that poo has to be put somewhere, so they put in on the fields and grow corn in that poo and the poo from the 500-1,000 cows that are milked down the road. That is a lot of poo. Then on top of that they add ammonium nitrate that they spray on and you can smell it...don't go outside on that day....Yes they do crop dust, but not around here anymore----we haven't had much that needs dusting since the veggie operation around here stopped. Hundreds of deer graze on the pooed land. Prions are absorbed more readily and cause disease faster if ingested with dirt, or soil. (which is mostly poo)

That poo ends up in the groundwater, the aquifer.


My old farmer neighbors used to call me and tell me they were spraying and to keep the kids in the house and the windows shut. They had a family farm and it went under....very sad.

There is little that can be done as we all derive our water from aquifers. City water is monitored. Well water is not. If you live in a city, you hope your municipality watches this stuff. You have other stuff like lead you can simply filter out.

Prions are also making their way into ground water.

I would just filter for lead and chlorine if I were on city water.

We didn't get rain for 8 weeks and had 10 foot tall corn...it is genetically modified not to need as much water. This corn is going to the ethanol plant or being fed to the cows down the road....we don't eat feed corn.

You can buy non-genetically altered food.

You can shop at organic food stores, if you can not buy from local farmers who grow transitional or organic food.

If you want organic food fresh all year round you have to buy from foreign countries. We eat more fresh in summer and more of our own canned stuff in winter....

You can if you want do a container garden. Those can be really quite productive. But they only last for good weather....that said, you can plant a lot of stuff right after the first freeze and still plant cold weather crops thru July....some crops still make it thru to the first freeze.

You can buy organic milk....milk is a big one....and milk products. You can get away from the hormones and antibiotics. You can buy free range eggs and chicken.

Every one has these visions of rural areas as family farmers....it isn't like that. To survive, most of these farmers have to have 1,000 acres.

There is an organic movement going here, and we have it pretty nice really. More and more, we see organic products and we have farmer's markets. This time of year, you either pay thru the nose for fresh food, or you eat the stuff you froze, dehydrated or canned all summer and fall.

Organic stores are mostly centered in progressive cities, but a lot of regular grocery stores have at least a section devoted to organic and transitional products.

So, yes, you can do some stuff.....and no, you don't need to know about farming. I have lived most of my adult life surrounded by the industry, had friends that were or are farmers....I see the honey wagon go by, 15 times per day, and smell dairyaire of 500 some cows. I don't need to fertilize, because the rain just washes whatever the farmer applied to higher ground to my lower ground.

Beef is an issue, and will remain an issue for a long time. Prion disease takes a very long time to develop altho 'mad cow' in the classic sense has a quicker onset. Obviously that would mean all dairy products. I still eat them and
I don't fret about it....not much you can do.

You can eat the foods that absorb less chemicals, and stay away from those that do, or buy those organically or transitionally grown.

I think it is a matter of minimizing....you can not get rid of it all.

Oh we need the bugs---they are part of the ecosystem---what would birds eat without bugs? Soil would not break down without bugs....Bugs are essential to the health of the planet....huge profits are not.

Soaking fresh foods in some salt water and rinsing it, gets rid of bugs....bugs on ripe food are not an issue...they are an issue if they eat the food before you get it. Wash the puppies off.

While I am on my GREEN rant, (yes Sue---definitely green, and not the sick kind of green, LOL)...Did you know that one acre of switchgrass, pelletized (like guinea pig pellets) is enough to heat the average American home for one year?

AND, it grows in poor soil, requires no pesticides or fertilizer. I am growing some in my front yard to prove it can be grown...same with the sunflowers, so maybe some one figures out it can be grown here. My sunflowers are feeding birds....too hard to shell!!!! (not all of my bright ideas work:o) Birds are happy.

Why, may I ask are we fooling around with wood and corn stoves when we can pelletize switchgrass? And yes, pellet stoves do use electricity, but can be run off a solar unit?

And sunflowers produce far more energy per acre than corn....it is a better option for biofuel...and they are PRETTY!:D

Thing is, you can take really good care of yourself and step off the curb and get nailed by a truck....so no need to go off the deep end worrying about mad cow...not in our generation anyway.

I see this as a matter of principle....if you are feeding this kind of bad meat to your most precious resource, your children....what kind of country are we turning into??? And you know what else....that CEO of that company will get fired if he is lucky and get a 100 million dollar golden parachute!

How do you get to those cherries before the birds do??? Sue

Cyclelops:

You almost had me ...until you said "we need the bugs".

And I almost lost it when you wrote about the chicken poo and the cow poo and where it goes.

You know, NOBODY EVER THINKS ABOUT WHERE THE FOOD COMES FROM!!!!

I truly believe this. We people in NYC, just go to our local supermarkets, pick up a packet of Perdue (hopefully they don't have antibiotics or hormones, at least that's what the guy on tv says". and we just take the food home and forget about it.

I bet if we had to live like the Amish day in and day out, we'd be a lot thinner and a lot healthier.

Bugs!!! yuck. lol

Yes tonight I was watching what that future millon ceo allowed
those workers to do to the poor cows ,who would'n stand up. Well
you know ceo,told them to do it,but the workers were fired,whoops
got caught on TV...Make the cows suffer,then pass the meat on to
are beautiful children...Bush is in Africa,he will not teach and pay
for condom's but will pay for those young Children Aid's med's
that was passed on from parents not having condom's.Where is
this world going,don't get me going there..This may have gone
to far,hope not...

I will be interested in hearing how your strawgrass works,the birds love
my sunflower seeds as well..I'm e-mailing my son in Min. about strawgrass,
and pelletts very cool. Sue

Not strawgrass Sue!
 

It's switchgrass.

Billye

Dang Billye
 

oh shoot your right I'm wrong..:o Hugs Sue

I am just growing a small patch...of switchgrass....it is useless. The only pelletizing companies are in Canada....LOL, I am not sending my little basket of switchgrass up there to get back 25 pellets.

Canada has several switchgrass pelletizing companies. We did wood and corn , which is not unreasonable, as we have wood and corn here in our state. However, you would think the great plains states, would get on the switchgrass bandwagon and build a switchgrass pelletizing plant and some switchgrass pellet burning stoves. Corn ethanol is king around here right now...for the time being.

It is just one small piece of a very large puzzle.

Oh--and the Amish---they are not that skinny....they make delicious noodles and CANDY. They have a lot of tooth problems. We have several Amish settlements in our state and I used to live in an area with a lot of them. (Contrary to popular belief, they ride in cars (yours) and they use phones (yours) and they even use power tools (yours) if building for you. They do use gas and oil, just no electric....and they do use outhouses. Some of them have huge, lovely homes....all white, but some of them are enormous...not all, but many. You can buy directly from them, many advertise their food on signs on the road, and they sell this cashew crunch stuff that is really really good.....I admire their self sufficiency, but, alas, I am not that 'devoted' and could not live without rubber tires or a computer.

Two decades and them some ago, one year I raised 175 chickens....I sold and bartered them, and butchered about 75 for myself. Hubby had to cut the heads off, I plucked them and gutted them. Never did it again. Stupid, massive undertaking. I bartered with local farmers for pork, beef and feed corn. I didn't have to buy feed, as the farmers gave me feed for chickens, even plowed up my garden for me, and plowed my driveway in winter. My older kids grew up on fresh milk.

I wanted to experience what it feels like to 'do in' your own food, so I appreciated it. So I learned it isn't that easy. Some folks have less emotional investment in animals than I, but it was hard for me. I 'hypnotized' each chicken before its demise and I could not watch the actual demise....You hypnotize a chicken by putting its head under its wing and rocking it rapidly....it goes limp, kinda passes out, so it doesn't know what is coming. Chickens do have personalities.

If I had chickens again...I would get layers and keep them for the two year life span and just, do them in at the end....and I would only have a dozen or so. Nothing is harder than hauling feed out, keeping water unfrozen, and cleaning up after animals when it is ten below zero. A lot of people who keep chickens do not overwinter them unless they 'force' laying. As light wanes, chickens stop laying....and you have to do some stuff to get them to 'molt' and then to lay....I don't know, I never did it....sounds too complex.

The chickens we raised were meant to be butchered between 8 to 12 weeks of age, as they were bred to get huge...their legs would not support the weight of the chicken beyond that age. They were not layers. I had layers but they didn't do all that well for me....probably because I did not know what I was doing...but I got a few eggs, enough to know they are really, really good.

A real egg from a free range chicken tastes totally different from a generic store bought egg. Home grown chicken really taste good. I have not found any store bought chicken to equal it.

This was back when there were more 'family' farms....now, there are far, far fewer family farms and just big 'corporate' farms. They are owned by the families that had enough resources to buy out the farmers that went under. This was also when our population was 200 million....now it is 360 million. Feeding more and more people on less and less land, will require some ingenuity.

On the bright side, due to organics and local markets, smaller family farms are re-emerging, but, at least one spouse must have a darn good job to survive on. It is hard to find any amount of acreage, near jobs....and you pay dearly for it. The more desirable the community, the more you pay for the land, of course.

We have some co-ops you can belong to and sell your foods to folks who enroll and pay the co-op....they get a box of in season veggies every week and the farmer member gets a small payment from the coop. We also have several nationally known organic brands that come from our state. So our state is actually at the forefront of the organic movement. It is not where it should be yet, but I think if the public demands it, it will get it.

But, Mel, it still involves poo. LOL.

People do not realize that there are acceptable levels of rat poo and rat hair in your goods....and yep, there always were, and we have survived.

BTW, I grew up a city girl!!! Both places have their advantages and disadvantages and I feel blessed to have experienced both...it has been kinda fun.

My gosh---I sound like my grandma when she would tell stories of the 'good old days'.

I'm trying to imagine myself killing a chicken. I'm trying to imagine myself doing ANY OF THE STUFF THAT YOU HAVE DONE!!

My god, you've certainly done a lot more interesting stuff than I ever have done in my entire life.

I feel like I should pack up my belongings, move to a farm and start rounding up chickens, chopping off their heads, and plucking the feathers.

Know why I can't do this?

Because one day last year, I was in a fish store not too far from my house.

I had always bought fresh fish that was laying on the ice. All nice and no fishy smell. Well, little did I know that this was NOT THE FRESHEST WAY TO BUY A FISH.

So I had not noticed that there were fish tanks WITH LIVE FISH swimming in them, right underneath the place where the fish were laying on the ice. The fish laying on the ice had been cleaned, no bones, no fins, no nothing.

So I walked in there and I was looking at the nice fish laying on the ice, deciding to buy either flounder or fillet of sole.

WELL!!!!! this chinese couple walks in, bends down and they are staring at the fish tanks. I followed where their eyes were looking and I exclaimed "oh, they have an acquarium in this store". Wow I exclaimed: "REALLY BIG FISH"Yeah, I'm that stupid!!!

So the people point to one of the fish and quicker than a jackrabbit, the guy behind the counter, picks up this live, flopping fish, and takes a mallet and bops him in the head. I just stood there and screamed.

I said 'what the hel* are you doing, you just killed that poor fish, oh my god".

The couple who picked out the fish didn't speak english so they didn't know what I was saying. The guy behind the counter, after bashing the fish's head in, took a long knife, beheaded the fish and filleted him right there on the spot. After composing myself (after all I had never seen anything murdered before), I simply began to comprehend that THIS WAS HOW PEOPLE BUY FRESH FISH. They pick out the fish, the guy kills the fish, and the fish is gutted and cleaned and you take it home.

I never in all my life had seen this and I was close to 60 at the time.

I'm telling you, people have no idea that this happens. I think people go to stores and say "oh, here's a nice piece of fish". They don't look around at the tanks and ultimately comprehend what's going on.

I left that day, came home and told Alan I saw a fish get murdered. He looked at me like I had lost my marbles.

Now, when I go to my local fish store, I see all the tanks around me. I have developed a friendship with the fish store people (it's a brand new fish store.).

So when I go there as they are opening up, I usually go to the Red Snapper or the mackeral and I say "Lam, what's good today"? He goes, "No Melody, you want what is coming in the store". And I get the first delivery of the morning.

So I guess I'm getting the second best thing to picking a fish out of a tank and having Lam bop it on the head.

I really don't think I can ever do that. lol

Where food comes from?
 

C? Don't get me started on the whole 'ethanol thing'!!! So short sighted and has such wide spread effects on the whole food industry! Sad backwards thinking? Lets recycle all that french fry oil and use that instead, it'll be like used tires or plastic bags, folks get them for free, process them into something useful and then can charge premium prices which some folks gobble up because it's 'green'. Melody, ever watch the show 'Dirty Jobs'? Theres one on recycling poo into plant pots, among other things. Good farmers compost their poo and put back on their fields, it's important to revitalize or at least, maintain good land and crops.

As for where food comes from? I do think there has been a disconnect between the cow, pig, chicken or fish to the table for decades. Frozen & pre-processed foods disassociate us from the whole 'process'. I remember at age 6 or 7 being taken to 'the turkey farm' to see turkeys before Thanksgiving. Birds alive and on the run really. All I remember is the smell of turkey poo! It is not a nice poo smell. Some poos actually DO smell nice, at least to me. I grew up 20 miles from the Empire State Building and there were farms then. Not now tho.

As for how animals are treated when being butchered? I believe that some 'plants' ' managements simply do not care-to a degree, it's all been a well calculated risk [of getting caught or creating some 'epidemic']. I suspect they will now be a bit more careful. This will probably be the second or third plant to take a risk and go bankrupt in the process. FDA clearly states that any animal that cannot walk MUST be tested and not fully processed until test results come back-they have almost the same # of meat inspectors now as they did in 1975 or so!
It is a mark of a good consumer to KNOW how this stuff in going from 'cow' to 'meat' should be done. Usually it's lesser grades of meat/poultry stuffs that are affected. That's why they are lesser grades. I'm sure meat industry associations can provide information about the 'ideal' quality controls. Or, buy Kosher?
While we all ponder on all the supplements we need to replace what is missing either in our diets, lifestyles or due to medical issues, we really are as GOOD as what we eat! Or, for some, can get into ourselves. Wish this all didn't have to be so. Enough of my soapbox! Good eating however you can achieve it! - j

Mel ha,we didn't chop off there heads ,you went out in the yard grabbed
awhole of there neck spun them around ,you had there head in your
hand and the chicken 's body is flying all around the yard...My eyes
got very big first time I saw it to.. But when you up early,help feed the
hands,then help collect the chicken eggs,they have been known to
peck..Then run to the dairy barn,before the machines..and so on
your hungry for that chicken,and home made biscuits..Hated that
outhouse,at night snakes,by the chicken coop too..Come right up
out of holes in the ground. ha They had to light the area up.
Poo not so bad and you didn't need anything to sleep,at night.,:eek:
mom snake!!!! Hugs Sue

Those chicken poo plant pots were invented here.....pity I didn't think of it....I just held my nose.

I'll tell ya, you can sell anything!

Yeah, well,poo
 

can be, and IS pungent at times? More so at some than others...
But that bird poo? Well, it can be VERY SO. Not that other creatures' poos arent' less or more- maybe it's a matter of taste...I think not..merely "POOO" tolerances. Of course, any 'composted' poo's are far more tolerable, in any world?
I think the whole POO pot thing is a re-enterpretation of what compost is all about? For profit. Not a silly idea at all! Besides, they do work. Who can ask for more?
Onward with whatever life we have to wrestle with! - j

I live in Boulder Colorado. Many of the citizens here are very health concious. We have several organic and vegetarian resaurants. There are several organic stores and the number is growing. The most successful Whole Foods store is in Boulder, but much of what they sell is not organic. The supermarkets carry organic fruits and vegetables. We can also find frozen organic meals, but they are not too tasty. There are two farmers markets here and a new one will open in the Spring

We do most of our shopping at a store ccalled vitamin cottage. It is a chain in the area. All of its fruits and vegetables are organic. Since I am a gluten and dairy free diet, there often is nothing in the house to eat, so I go out and contaminate myself with restaurant food.

It is a challenge to stay organic or gluten and dairy free, but it is interesting to shop and find foods that are OK.

Boulder IS the organic eater's heaven, or at the least the 'transitional' or 'natural' capital of the US. You guys have food there I can not pronounce, and when I visit my daughter always gets me to eat some new 'adventure'.

I don't think you can really be truly organic....if I am buying organic, I try to get Oregon Tilth certified...otherwise you really don't know. I can only afford so much Oregon Tilth certified stuff.

I grow stuff, but it 'organicity' is questionable, but, at least I have a rough idea what went into it...'rough idea'....

And, yes, I still pollute myself with McSomethings and God knows what else.....Lots of days, cooking is not in the picture....I have more home grown canned stuff in the basement and pantry than energy to cook it. I must have had a gamma ray burst of energy last summer to do that amount of work---and now perhaps I am paying the price for all that manual labor.

I run out of energy to drink water some days let alone cook....I used to have a lot more energy to go chasing chickens.....

What you do have in Boulder that I would gnaw off my arm for is 300 days of sunshine compared to my 100!!! That would be therapeutic!!

Today I went shopping (to stock up because Alan has his surgery on Thursday).

I bought a package of Dole ORGANIC hearts of Romaine.

Now is this really Organic?? Or did they just call it that?

I live in Georgia. The people here can't even spell organic. It's at the opposite end of the scale from Boulder. I am doomed in the food department.

The kids in Colunbia Mo. ate 12 hundred lbs.of that meat,they have
put aside 6 hundred lbs. aside to see what the want to do with it..

Susan I just love parts of GA,as you can see from the above we may
be far from Boulder Co. But you all have those great Valdalia,Onions.
Be proud Susan,and your tomatoe's are pretty good to..

C going to be below zero tommorrow maybe they can leave the
meat outside..They Also said we ,or Mo. has the leading case of
flu,and I have to go to the hospital,for a few hrs. and i'm so hungry
I'm going to get the flu,no matter how positive I think.:p:p Sue

We live in the world of convenience and what tastes good. The meat issue is unreal. I do feel though quality of food is lower cause people buy it. When you pass by a McDonalds there is always a line through the drive threw. Most of those people are not getting salads. People who feel fine tend to not worry until it happens. Before I got this I never thought about these issue but now though still too junky in food choices it does make me stop and think about my choices. Really trying harder to be healthy in ways I can.

Mel

Who certified your lettuce? It is unlikely grown in the US at this time of year....unless grown in a greenhouse.

That 'Oregon Tilth' is a certification. Anything 'Oregon Tilth' certified is likely pretty good stuff. See below

http://www.tilth.org/

If you search for 'Oregon Tilth' companies that sell their products will come up on the pages.

USDA also certifies, but, well they certify a lot of things and like this hot lunch meat recalled stuff.

I don't like to plug any specific products but if you PM me, I will let you know what milk, cheese and yogurt I get organic, and trust.

Also remember Organic food still needs washing....organic means poo is used...wash all food very well, especially leaf lettuces. Head lettuces are actually less prone to get E. Coli in the inner leaves....Leaf lettuce, which I love is more prone to E. Coli, as is spinach, because all leaves are exposed versus head lettuce where only the exterior leaves are exposed.

Here is one on international organic certification, but I don't know as much about this one as Oregon Tilth.

http://www.ocia.org/

Maybe some one on here is more knowledgeable about organic certs. I mostly know the Oregon Tilth as I wanted to try to get half an acre to an acre certified for that.

Oh, I also grow my own Asparagus...Mel, you like that stuff right?? In 2 more years I should have quite a bit of it, LOL....I planted it in 'black dirt' just like they said. I have had some really good luck with asparagus and raspberries in the past in this neck of the (non)woods...

Sue, you are the weather prognosticator! -10 to -20 actual temp...no idea what the windchill we be.

I suppose that shoots my idea to watch the lunar eclipse...unless we get quite creative with the clothing.

I just got back from the vet....'bony dog' (chocolate lab) needed his nails clipped and he nips....so I have to get him knocked out....he was so funny....after the general wore of, he was still quite 'high' from the sedative and pain medication they gave him first...they thought maybe he would be mellow enough to allow some one to fool with his feet just on that....not. (He must be like me--hard to put under.)

So they had to put him under all the way, then he didn't want to get up....he was comfy. Finally got him stirred up enough to get him in the car. He weighs 75 pounds I couldn't carry him so he had to wobble to the car. His feet seemed oblivious to the cold...he is 'singing' in the bathroom right now, where he is confined with his bed.

He has to stay in there until he wakes up more, because the other dogs want to play and jump on him and he is 'disinhibited', due to the drugs, which means, not in the mood to play and more likely to nip. Dogs get 'disinhibited' under the influence of mellowing drugs, and are more likely to bite....unlike humans who are more affable, and less likely to bite. Dogs are less social and people usually more social. Dogs can take valium but it makes them more likely to bite. Interesting?!

My largest beast had a bowel issue that night that necessitated him being let out at least 15 times after we were in bed. Hubby took the first shift of the night and I took over at 2am. I hope his issue is over...it seems to be. If that darn dog would stop eating whatever he sees, he would be fine. I have no idea what caused his latest distress, I am not missing anything, but I am very tired.....I suppose I could get 'disinhibited' enough from lack of sleep to bite.

BTW they had 'organic' meat you could order for your dog. I can't afford it for me, let alone my dogs.

Anyway, Sue, if you guys stop sending those nasty weather fronts this way, maybe we could warm up a titch? Can you conjure up some fair weather dance or spell??

Oh, Sue, my daughter has the 'new flu' and she is very, very sick and she is an extremely healthy young person....be really careful of exposure. My daughter would never call in sick to work for serveral days, but she is bedridden. She was so sick her roomie had to drive her to the doc. She is so sick they had to give her tamiflu, prescription pain meds and albuterol....she is sicker than the 'proverbial' dog. She lives in CO. This is a really bad flu bug.