Dosage of Alpha Lipoic vs. R Lipoic?
 

Can anyone advise on dosage for R Lipoic? I have been taking 600 mg of alpha lipoic (300 mg 2x day). Just ordered R Lipoic - how much would equal the 600 mg of alpha? Thanks!

suggestion...
 

I'd start slowly with the r-lipoic...

I had used alpha lipoic in the past with no effect whatsoever.. NOW brand which is very good. So I think the quality was good. I took 600mg daily for about 2 months, and gave up. It was expensive and I expected "something".

So when I started r-lipoic a few weeks ago, I started at 100mg twice a day,
and that was a huge mistake. Boy did get hyped up and insomniac!

So I cut them in half (I bought tablet form), and only took 50mg in the morning.
After about 2 weeks, I noticed no hyper side effects and increased to 100mg
first thing in the morning. I really like the energy it is giving me, and food cravings (carbs) have plummeted for me.

So I would start slowly.

I have different feelings in my feet too. I think the numbness is getting better.
Some mild aching has developed, which I think is nerves waking up. I've had to put some patches on at night a few times. (I use Salonpas for aching, and Lidoderm rarely for burning).

I am also doing Benfotiamine--and find I have much less water retention than I did. I am not getting response from Lasix anymore! I did not expect that.
So I think this is the benfotiamine doing that, but it may be helped by the
r-lipoic. I've noticed less reactive hypoglycemia as well. So I think the r-lipoic is working like the old metformin did for me in the past --for improving
insulin resistance.

Post here, your results...I think you may be pleased as well.

While there is considerable individual variation--
 

--the usual figures I've seen is that R-lipoic is considered sox to ten times more potent per milligram than alpha lipoic.

Mrs. D's reaction is farily typical. I myself went from 600mg/day alpha lipoic to 100mg/day of R-lipoic, but even at my size (I'm about 205 pounds) I found that to be a little strong--my blood sugar was going down too low and I felt more lethargic; lipoic is not only a potent antioxidant, but has strong blood glucose lowering properties, and as I do not have a diabetic blood sugar level to start . . .

I've now been taking one 100mg/R-lipoic every other day and that seems to keep me more even; I may order 50mg capsules and take one each day and see how that works.

Question anybody
 

Mrs d I have Diabetes 2 you said something a little while back,about
Metformin. Just can't find it do you by any chance remember it. I
have been taking 850mg twice a day. For 3 years all of a sudden
my sugar has been all over the place,which is unusual for me. They
put me on Avandia,that had to go,called Dr, after short time,it was
messing with my heart and the sugar was dropping to the 50 level
which was knocking me on my butt.This was before the big deal about
Avandia,hate when you have to call the Dr. and tell them help.

Glen if you weigh 205 how tall are you? I haven't been to the Dr.
because the nurse told me stay away two much flu..Thank you so much
Hugs to all of you Sue

a mild warning
 

If you are hypothyroid, you might find lipoic acid interferes making T3 (active thyroid hormone) from T4 (synthroid, levoxyl) and you could become more hypothyroid. This happened to me, I believe; although I won't know for sure until my next set of bloods, drawn after I stopped the lipoic acid.

Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels.
Segermann J, Hotze A, Ulrich H, Rao GS.

Institute of Clinical Biochemistry, University of Bonn, Fed. Rep. of Germany.

The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 1815532 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I'm about--
 

6 feet, 1.5 inches in height, give or take a decimal. I suspect taht my habit of slouching, now exacerbated by some of the cervical spine issues and muscle spasms, may have caused me to lose a little height.

I'd like to say it's all muscle, but I know better. Until my late thirties, I weighed about 170-175, and gained/lost weight easily. Then--the dreaded metabolic syndrome kicked in.

I'm trying to lose the weight, and have gone way done on my Gabapentin dosage (I'm down to about 400mg/day, and may soon be off entirely, from a high of 2400mg/day several years ago); I'm fairly convinced that the Gabapentin contributed to the weight gain.

I do want to get down below 190, at least. I've noticed my knees do not like me at this weight.

Glen Thanks,
I'm on 3600 mg. and if my Dr. who willl battle me ,I would like to
to wean myself from it (Garaprntin} for 2 reasons weight gain
and loss of balance..I did not have that problem until that Med.
But I know PN can cause that as well ,but just have the need
to know..I think I beat you at the shrinking,really bad spine
problem..Thanks again, Oh I like and I'm sure others here
pefer brains to muscle. Hugs to all Sue

Mrs d and the others here: should people with hypothyroidism totally avoid r lipoic acid?? Or could i just increase the dosage of t3 and t4 hormones i take????

I searched for information on this a while ago
 

when this paper was posted here.

There is nothing on HUMANs on this at all.

There is one comment by a poster here:
http://www.raysahelian.com/lipoic.html
and this one is a copy of it:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...rient&dbid=117

and this by Linus Pauling Institute:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente.../la/index.html

The thyroid study on rats was with very high dose alpha (mixed) lipoic.

The R-lipoic is a different entity and does not require high doses.

I am hypothyroid and I feel no negative effects...no increase in cold intolerance (and it IS cold here) and no sluggishness etc. I've been on this for 60 days now. 100mg in the morning...and I feel fine! Better than before infact.
I am sure it is helping my insulin resistance (which I know I have from blood tests).

It is your choice in the end however. Diabetics I would warn to watch blood sugars, as R-lipoic can lower blood sugar and alter requirements for oral meds and/or insulin.

Monica Be very, very careful
 

'adjusting' your own thyroid doses! It can be hard to do and at times not productive.
I am like Mrs D hypothyroid, but severely hypothyroid...I have been on all but the very highest doses of Synthroid made now. [They didn't make the highest doses they have now when I went thru the dose menu-one simply took more.]
Thyroid meds are not something for YOU to experiment with. Leave that to those docs! Please.
I've no experience with r-l-a, but tried a-l-a for a while...saw no differences other than a racing heart [seemingly] on occasion. So, I stopped. Some things are worth trying and keeping or discarding.
Just promise me? That you will take any thyroid meds at LEAST an hour separately from any other medications or supplements! This is noted in the 'prescribing information' but rarely noted by docs to patients or anyone for that matter. Some meds and suppls either decrease the effects of thyroid meds or INCREASE them. Either is not good and it varies with the type of meds and suppls.
A proper dose of thyroid meds SHOULD enable you to feel as if you hadn't just woken up from under a musty carpet tho....And, as Mrs D said often much better than before!
I do hope this helps! - j

No one should alter their thyroid
 

doses without a blood test and doctor supervision. This is not a do-it-yourself,
topic.

Diabetics taking R-lipoic should have doctor supervision and test blood sugar more often to see what effects or any it will have on diabetic treatments.

I am at a loss as to the "high dose" of synthroid that wasn't available?
0.3mg has always been available..since this drug came out.

I have only had one man receive it tho, in the 30yrs it has been around...
and he told me his doctor gave it to him to lower extremely high cholesterol.
I assume now with the statins out there, he is doing those, instead of the .3mg Synthroid.

I had one patient who was a DOG...yes a DOG get it, because dogs need higher doses than people for some strange reason.

But patients who have their whole thyroid REMOVED do not typically get more than .15 or .175, and in reality do well on .125 most of the time!

Use of massive doses is confusing, and indicates to me that people are NOT taking the medication on an empty stomach like they are supposed to do (this is fairly new information)...or that they have some extreme deficiency in Selenium and Zinc which are required by the body to convert Synthroid to active T3 in the tissues. One is not going to see massive doses of Synthroid being given because we now know that high thyroid hormone levels cause rapid bone tear down, and hence osteoporosis.

It just occurred to me that -J- may have tried to get .3mg during one of the production interruptions for Synthroid.
This drug has had it's patent sold I think 3 times now. It is now made by Abbott. But it originally was by Flint, then Boots,
then Abbott bought it. I have heard thru the manufacturing grapevine that Abbott is struggling with it still, to standardize
doses. I myself switched to the generic a while ago...and Mylan works just fine for me. I had a patient who HATES Synthroid
and will not take it. She claimed that her RX was no made correctly and conflicted with a surgery she had....her doctor won't let her
use that brand at all!

Mrs D?
 

I am talking about 15-20 years ago... and they only went up to the 130-150 doses...[At least in my insurance plan or something?] I did try the 130 doses for a very short while? But apparently my docs didn't like the ultimate # results. As for the .3mg doses being available? I suspect that my docs would have put me on it even for a short while as my #'s were very low for a while back then. And That was BEFORE all my new thyroid issues! Which now seem to be stable [Knock wood?].

As for osteo and Synthroid? It's a sort of durned if we do, or not kind of thing, isn't it? Hugs - j

.3mg came out with the original patent (this is over 30 yrs ago). What DID come out later in time were the newer doses.
.075 (I think)
.088
.112
.137
.175

What used to be done for those patients needing the inbetween doses is that
skip days were given. Say take .125mg 6 days a week and skip Sunday.
Or .05 daily and 2 on Sunday. Then when the newer in between ones came,
the skip or add on Sunday is not common now at all.

There are a lot of other factors that can influence the hormonal dosage.
 

My wife, who just had her thyroid out Thursday (papillary carcinoma--apparently very well contained microcarcinoma, fortunately), is about to be an interesting guinea pig.

She's been put on 100mcg/day of Synthroid, which I am making sure she takes far apart from everything else, including the large calcium dose she's now on for parthyroid shock (she did start to get hypocalcemic symptoms about 8 hours after surgery, but we had expected them and they were forestalled quickly with intravenous dosing). I suspect, though, that this will prove inadequate--my wife has an extremely frugal metabolic system, and did even before thyroid troubles were diagnosed, due to her decades as an ultramarathon runner. Her body is quite used to maintaining muscle on a 70 mile a week schedule--she's not doing that now, of course (she's been told no running for a week), but her surgeon is well aware that she'll want to start again ASAP. Moreover, for thyroid cancer patients, the aim is to drive TSH down quite low--into the .3-.5 range--as a tumor growth suppresant (at least until one needs to be made hypothyroid for radioiodine scan, tosee if any vestiges of tumor remain). I imagine she's going to put on some weight during the convalescent period, though I think fears of bone density reduction will be lessened by her calcium/Vitamin D intake and by the bone density built up through thirty years of weight bearing exercise (the x-ray people are always impressed by her bone thickness).

Since she needs to be titred up regularly anyway for thyroglobulin and TSH levels, we'll see how this all goes, and how it correlates with mental sharpness, exercise level, weight, fatigue levels, and dietary change.