16 year old neice with cheerleading injury
 

Hi,
I thought you folks would be the ones to ask about this mri results:

Broad subligamentous disk extrusion is noted resulting in a mild dural sac compression. a broad annular fissure posteriorly inferiorly is associated with the extrusion. This extends slightly inferior to the disk space at the L5-S1 area.


She has had back pains since last april that went away with PT but have come back 100 worse just 3 weeks ago after starting cheerleading again. She is the "base" so every one climbs on top of her.

Her pediatrition examed her and noted neuropathy in her left foot ..kind of like a clubing, she cant curl her toes and numbness and now it is also in her left arm as well...still awaiting those results.

I don't quite understand what this all means...could this be permnanent nerve damage?

thank you
bizi

it means no more cheerleading, alas...

it's a herniated disc, and very painful, I understand.

here's a primer, in mostly layperson's language:

A disc herniation, also called a subligamentous disc, occurs when the nuclear (inner jelly-like portion of the disc) material protrudes into the tears in the annulus in one area and has displaced surrounding anatomical structures, like the spinal cord or nerve roots, i.e. pinched nerve. However, the outer ring of the annulus has not been breached, in other words, no disc material has completely squirted through the outer edges of the disc.

MRI reports frequently use the term disc protrusion interchangeably with disc herniation. A disc protrusion generally refers to a broad-based or slightly asymmetric bulging of the disc with an intact annulus and reflects disc degeneration (see below). Sometimes you may even see the term focal disc protrusion, which usually means the same thing as a disc herniation.

http://www.youcanbefit.com/disc.html


I'll be praying for your niece, as my sister was a cheerleader and gymnast, and was "base" as well... but back then (in the 70s) there were no MRIs and girls were just told to "buck up" and get over it.

she's nearing 50, and still having problems with her back and neck, because it wasn't treated.

so, my recommendation is... get her to a good doctor, and get her HEALED, and have her take it EASY for a good long while until she's TOTALLY better, because unfortunately, re-injuries are common, and you don't want her to have life-long problems.

:hug: to your niece, and hope she's feeling better soon !!

thank you!
She has an appointment with a neurosurgeon tomorrow.
From what I read, they don't reccomend surgery....
we will see what he/she says tomorrow.
thanks for you fast reply...I appreciate it.
bizi

A very easy to read site with pictures:

http://www.chirogeek.com/001_Tutorial_Birth_of_HNP.htm

bizi

yes.

my sister has experience MUCH relief of pain from seeing a chiropractor.

especially treatments by a doctor using a combination of the Activator Method, and the Palmer Method.

should I goggle those terms?
bizi

Bizi....

Those are different kinds of chiropractic methods or styles.... I can't recall how many but those are two of them.

:hug:
Abbie

um, lemme think...

Palmer is a gentle manipulation by the chiropractor, with his hands, to realign the vertebrae.

Activator uses a little tool-thingie that sorta POPs out, and jiggles things back into place without the manual adjustments.

some doctors use several methods, whatever is best for the patient.

sometimes people are in too much pain to be pulled and twisted by hand, so the Activator tool works well for them.

and some people only hurt badly in one or two areas, so the doctor uses the Activator there, and manually adjusts elsewhere.

see, when one vertebrae or disc is injured, it puts stress on the whole spine (since it's all connected) and there can be a domino effect, leading to, say, if your lower back's out, then it pulls things out further upwards, leading to a tweaked mid-back or neck.

here, this explains it better than I ever could:

http://www.becomehealthynow.com/arti...echniques/663/

hope that helps.

:grouphug:

well her neurosurgeon wants more exams done since she is having arm involvement too. so more mri's next week with contrasting dyes of her cervical neck and her head....
she is being thorough....
thanks for you replies!
bizi

spine /chiro info - hope some of these might help
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/post284498-37.html
Chiropractic care info- a good one can help with many symptoms:
http://www.upcspine.com/self.htm
http://www.uppercervical.org/subpag...b/about_faq.php
http://www.spineuniverse.com/index.html
http://www.coloradochiropractic.org/.../glossary.html

:hug: hi bizi

i sent you a postcard with all this yesterday, but i'll post it here too.:)

traction isn't something that ortho surgeons mention often. they want to do surgery to fix everything. that may not be the only answer.

when i injured my back, we were given all the horror stories.

releaving the pressure was my saving grace. then getting the muscles in shape to keep my back stable. i have always had pain, but i kept everything inline and not progressing, until a few years ago. :o

since she has compression..it makes sense to releave the compression and take the pressure off.

traction takes time. in this hurry hurry fix me fast world, i think it gets put on the back burner.

i just got an update from your mom. i'm sending prayers. :hug:

pm me anytime. i never post too much about my back. :o

WEll there is more news:
the neurosurgeon called THIS morning to let them know they discovered something else. apparently her C1 vertebrea is turned 180 degrees and faces the other way. I wonder if she was born with it like that?
she has more tests to be run on her this tuesday.
since she was having her left arm numbness as well as her foot, the doctor knew there were 2 issues.
the doctor was surprised at this finding.
I don't know what to think of this...I thought the spine was like a puzzle, everything has its place and it one piece is out of place then the rest don't fit....but maybe that is different for the top piece...must be.
bizi

thank you guys,
my aunt used to use traction on neck if I remember right.
Curious you are right about our hurry up society.
well she has a long road with this I think.
Must try to be positive....
bizi

:hug:

it is a good thing this was caught early. so many times teens don't say anything. especially if they think it will stop them from activities. :o

i broke a finger during a first serve of a volleyball game when i was in the 10th grade. i went on to play 3 sets. :o

:hug::hug::hug::hug:

the pain has been so bad that she feels relief only when standing...
poor thing
bizi

bizi, this will suck....but since she gets releif from standing..and i do know that feeling..

be sure they do not do a standing mri. if she is getting releif from standing, it may not show the impingement.

i drive my family nuts. i can't sit for long, so i get up while we watch tv. i sew standing up. i can't lay in bed for long..i flip flop like a fish. :wink:

how is she dong today?

:hug::hug::hug::hug:

[apparently her C1 vertebrea is turned 180 degrees and faces the other way. I wonder if she was born with it like that?]

wow that's sounds very odd - I wonder how often that happens??
Has Dr seen /dealt with that before??
If not might need to find a experienced Dr for that issue.

Thanks....she is seeing a neurosurgeon at Rileys Childrens Hospital in Indianapolis and getting very thoroughly cared for in part because her mom (Bizi's twin sister) is the nurse for Taylors pediatrition.

Dr. said it's very odd and after all the test results are in they will sit down and talk about a treatment plan.

We hate it that she hurts so!

Thank you all.

oh man.... i'm so sorry....i'll add Taylor to my prayer list for sure... i can only imagine how crushed she feels right now... i know how involved she was in cheering and how much she loved it... sigh... :hug:

16 year old neice with cheerleading injury
 

Just make sure you get all the reports yourself and look at them, I know from
from gone to Riley that do not tell you everything that is in the report.
My 21 son went there and they did tell me he had spinal bifad and pars defect
and slipage, I found out 10 years later:mad:

well she had the contrasting mri today...awaiting the results...I'll just have to be patient!
whistling along....:rolleyes:

The chiro I've been going to uses both the Palmer and Activator. Love the activator.

But, I think I'd wait and see what the neurosurgeon says. Though I must admit that I couldn't stand chiros for years. Always crackin me around, but this new one I found in January is wonderful.

Awwww (((Alffe))) and (((Bizi))) I'm so sorry! I hope they can fix this, poor thing. I know how she loves her cheerleading. :hug:

reversed cervical lordosis...of her c1.
will find out more....
bizi

http://www.neckandheadacherelief.com...blications.asp

I read that some whip lashes cause this reversal.
bizi

Chiropractors
 

I am new to this forum due to the fact I have several herniated discs, protruding discs and annular tears which I think are from gymnastics as a teen I am now 38 years old. I recently stopped going to a chiropractor because I was under going extreme pain and would actually cry on the table while he was manipulating me. Weeks after I started to go to physio, they and other professionals told me DO NOT HAVE MANIPULATION Done when there is a herniation present! I agree from experience. The pain over took my entire back and neck, possibly creating some of those discs and bulges.
Just thought you might want to know this. I would have liked to have known before hand.

:hug:

i did a quick search, there are many sites with articles about cheerleading and whiplash.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/chee...erleading.html

Makes me think of the chronic pain many of the Olympic athletes will end up with by training so hard and punishing their young bodies just for glory...

I just think there has to be a sensible balance in all things.

Talked to my sister and she said that the neuro surgeon doc said that talyor had the neck of a 70 year....that it was completely straight without any curvature.
Can't explain her numbness and pain in her arm.
She will have pt and was told that she could do swimming, pilates or yoga.
Said that this is a life long issue for her.
If the PT doesn't help with the pain then she would be referred to a pain specialist.
bizi

Hey Bizi,

I am so sorry that your niece has to go through this. :hug:

But I don't understand how the neuro cannot understand pain and numbness in the arms?

I have a theory but could be totally off.

If her neck has no curve the the cervical spine is unstable and when she is moving around, it moves around too much likely and it irritaing some of those nerve roots which would signal pain and numbness.

You would not be able to see this on an MRI because when you lie in that thing she would look stable even if the neck has not curve. Have they dowe flexion and extension xrays? It might show how the spine is moving in real life and show where the pain is coming from. A chiro might be able to do these for her if the neuro won't.

thanks shelley,
yes she did do the extension and flexion exrays...
my sister seems to be minimizing her issues....
always says that she probably has a couple of herniated disks....
sigh
bizi
oh and I asked her about sending her to a chiro..she said her husband would probably not allow that.

Hi Bizi, sorry about all of this with your niece.

Have you considered an upright MRI? They can MRI her neck in different positions. I have had several done in the upright MRI and the picture quality is good. It would help show if nerves are being impinged on.

Also wanted to say that they told my son he had the back of a 70 year old too. Funny they would say 70 also, maybe that is medical talk for really really bad LOL

Anyway, my son went through PT and has since strengthened his back and is doing better. If he does not stay up on his exercises it seems to get worse.

Oh and another thing, as far as a chiro goes, maybe some gentle traction but I would say no to manipulations. Traction really helped my neck, it seemed to open up the disk space.

Hopefully she can get some relief, she is so young to be going through this...Sue

An upright MRI is a great suggestion Snoozie! I had forgotten about those. I tried to find one but there s not one close to me.

And totally think gentrle traction is a good idea but I too would stay away from manipulations.

My heart just breaks for your niece Bizi. I sure hope she improves.

my sister told me the bill for the mri was $8K....sjtu can't believe they are that expensive...how can our insurance companies afford this>
hoping that they pay for it...they can't afford this for sure..they can not afford the deductable for that matter....
sigh
thanks for your support you guys....will have to wait to see how PT goes...this is going to take a long time....
bizi

If PT makes her feel worse make sure she speaks up - and if one therapist isn't helping ask for a new one or a more advanced one.
some are good and some just go thru the motions...:(

possibly a osteopathic dr might be one to check into if they don't see any improvements.