Experiences with Vitamin Depletions/Deficiencies
 

I am submitting this post (and this thread) as a condensed version of my experiences with vitamin depletions/deficiencies. Although condensed, this is still rather long and detailed. I had begun posting this information at the original BrainTalk site, however due to that site’s crash during the Summer and long outage, the continued unknown status regarding restoration of the BrainTalk database (old posts), and inability to find missing information in other locations (e.g. Google caches), I have decided to place this information here. I have performed a lot of research regarding the following issues and have posted data in other areas of this forum (hopefully it will help others), however any input from others (especially with issues that are still not resolved) would be greatly appreciated. I will plan to add further research data that I have come across to areas of this forum as time permits.

Note: It is not my intent to criticize the use of any medications, etc. The meds were real lifesavers for me for years and I still may need to continue on them, but my experience convinces me that meds do deplete vitamins and nutrients. Hopefully putting all the pieces of this “puzzle” together will enable me (and possibly others) to get back to “life as normal”.

Background:
I have experienced chronic insomnia for many years (gradual onset over 20 years ago) and for a long time could find nothing that would help (incl. medications, relaxation techniques, etc, etc.). Then in 1993 the drug Ambien (Zolpidem) was released and I began taking it. It worked and I took 10 mg every night for over 5 years with no problems. My doctor also had me on some other medications with sedative properties for sleep maintenance, but these meds never seemed to do much for me. After about 5 years I began having intermittent neurological side effects from the medication (Ambien) that got progressively worse over the next number of months/years until every time I took the medication I would experience these severe side effects. The only way to alleviate these side effects (over time) was to stop taking the medication, but then I was unable to sleep (a catch-22 situation).

For the past several years I have seen various doctors and have been switched from one medication to another to another (primarily other sedatives, antidepressants, anxiolytics, and other drugs) with little to no benefit. I have also tried "natural" medications for sleep (e.g. valerian, melatonin, hops, etc.), but these were also ineffective. I tried Lunesta (Eszopiclone) after it was released last year and it did help me sleep, but I experienced similar neurological “side effects” from this medication as well. I have continued to ride this medication “merry-go-round” for the past several years, always going back to Ambien or Lunesta until my symptoms get so bad that I have to go back off of them again.

Last year I was prescribed Xanax (Alprazolam) and after taking it for a short period of time I developed a "dullness" in the side of my head, after which I immediately stopped this medication. After a few more months I began experiencing constant headaches in this same area, which along with the dullness, have continued to today. I have also developed issues with hypertension over the past year or so.

After spending much time (probably about 2000 hours over the past 3-4 years on the internet, working as I felt like it) researching these issues without much success, a few months ago I finally began finding information that appeared to explain my symptoms. These explanations centered on vitamin deficiencies. I found that the neurological symptoms related to B12 deficiency appeared to explain my symptoms quite well (ref. rose’s web site for B12 information http://roseannster.googlepages.com/home). I then began taking sublingual B12 tablets, as well as B-complex vitamins. Seeing yet another doctor and going in with a BP reading of 170/100, I discussed these ideas with this doctor and had a number of blood tests performed. B12 tested as not deficient (actually tested high, but was probably skewed as I had already started taking the B vitamins), however Vitamin D was very low. Homocysteine was also high (reference below for applicable test results; these tests were performed during 5/2006). An MRI of my brain showed up as normal and nerve tests of the head and neck showed little to no loss of sensation:

Attachments:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...5&d=1162756520
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...7&d=1162756629

After adding an initial high dosage of 10,000 IU/day of Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) to my regimen, a few weeks later I found information on a lab that specializes in vitamin/nutrient testing, SpectraCell Laboratories (http://www.spectracell.com/). SpectraCell test results showed an additional substantial depletion/deficiency of zinc and a somewhat below-normal level of Vitamin E. Cholesterol was a bit high (known), Lipoprotein-a (Lp(a)) was high (unknown), however there had been a significant decrease in homocysteine (tests performed during 6/2006):

Attachments:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...8&d=1162756782
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...9&d=1162758249
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...0&d=1162758307
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...1&d=1162758330
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...2&d=1162758368
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...3&d=1162758407

Note: I can provide more information on SpectraCell Laboratories, if anyone is interested.

Several weeks later and after more research, I also requested the following tests from my doctor (performed during 8/2006, some of these were not covered by SpectraCell):

Attachment:
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...6&d=1162756575

I have added other vitamins/nutrients over the past few months per additional research (for example adding Vitamin B6 (P5P) and folic acid (Metafolin), along with the B12 (Methylcobalamin), to control homocysteine). I have also found benefit (some improvement in neurological symptoms) with Acetyl-L-Carnitine. I have however been unable to find anything as yet to reduce the nerve "dullness" and headaches. Most of the pain medications that I have taken haven’t seemed to help much. Hypertension appears to be under control and I am currently taking 25 mg/day (fairly low dosage) of Toprol XL for this, however I suspect the previous Vitamin D depletion/deficiency was the main cause of the hypertension.

Much of my research has centered on drug-induced vitamin/nutrient depletion utilizing resources such as the “Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, 2nd Edition” http://www.lexi.com/lexistore/market...0000/index.jsp, which is very detailed and well referenced (please see Medication/Drug Induced Vitamin/Nutrient Interaction/Depletion References for various other references). Unfortunately many drugs have not been tested for vitamin depletion (see p. 10 of this handbook under "Limitations of this Handbook"), including most of the drugs that I have taken. I have found by "deduction" however that sedative drugs that act on the GABA-A receptor complex (ref. http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/PSY402C06.doc, Univ. at Buffalo PSY402 course notes for info. on the GABA-A receptor), such as Ambien, Lunesta, and other drugs such as benzodiazepines, "may" deplete similar nutrients as certain anticonvulsants that also act on GABA-A (see p. 500-501 of the handbook for an excellent chart of nutrients depleted by anticonvulsants, and note that Vitamin D, many of the B vitamins, Vitamin K, and others are depleted by practically all of them).

…

I am hoping that continued use of vitamins and nutrients will eventually help the “dullness” and headaches, but if anyone has any additional recommendations (especially with regards to nerve damage, such as the trigeminal nerve(s)), this would be very appreciated. I am a middle-aged male, otherwise relatively healthy and not overweight, if that makes any difference. I suspect the vitamin/nutrient deficiencies had lasted a long time as I had experienced the abnormal drug “side effects” for several years. I will probably need to continue taking sedatives for sleep, but hopefully I can utilize a comprehensive vitamin/nutrient regimen that will alleviate depletions and side effects. I will plan to submit an additional post soon documenting my current vitamins/nutrients.

...

P.S.
I found there is a limit of 5 attachments/post, so additional post(s) will be added to accommodate attachments.

Experiences with Vitamin Depletions/Deficiencies (Continued)
 

Additional attachments...

There was a study that showed CoQ10 helps some folks with migraine prevention. Same with magnesium. I believe the recommended dosage for the CoQ10 is 300 mg. I started off with 150 and worked my way up...it can cause stomach upset initially.

You need to correct any methylation problems you have in order to properly correct your homocysteine (HCY) levels. Without knowing your histamine levels or how your body methylates (over-methylates or under-methylates) you can't know what form of niacin to take.

One simple test you can do yourself is to get some nicotinic acid in a 50 mg. dose. Nicotinic acid is the flush producing niacin. If you have a flush from one dose of 50 mg. of nicotinic acid (taken on any empty stomach) then you have histamine levels. I would be inclined to think you may not have high histamine levels, but that is just a guess.

A low histamine person would probably require a dose of about 250 mg. of nicotinic acid to have that flush. If no flush from 50 mg. of nicotinic acid then you might try 100 mg. dose to double check this. If that doesn't work you might try once more a total of 200 mg. or 250 mg. of nicotinic acid just to make sure that you do in fact have low histamine levels and that supplement is the kind to cause a flush.

Methylation is important and this is how you get your HCY levels back in line. Even if you HCY levels are good you should not ignore nutrition for proper methylation. But if you take vitamin b6 then you should also take some form of niacin too. The only way to know what form of niacin is best for you is to either have your histamine levels checked with a blood test or try the flush and see what dose will cause a flush for you. Niacin is needed along with glutamine to make NAD. This is more of an explanation of NAD.

Niacinamide-adenine dinucleotide (NAD) is an active enzyme that is required for the proper function of vital areas of the brain. In schizophrenia, there appears to be a failure to deliver enough NAD to the brain. Vitamin b3 is required for the transformation of tryptophan, an amino acid, into NAD. If there is a niacin deficiency, this necessary transformation of trypotphan into NAD is inhibited, and there is not only a NAD deficiency established, but there is also an overload of tryptophan in the brain’s chemistry. Tryptophan is considered to be one of the most toxic of amino acids. An overload of it in the brain can be very harmful, especially if it is not properly converted into NAD, because it can cause undesirable perceptual and mood changes. If there is a b3 deficiency, for whatever reason, the consequent NAD deficiency will lead to ever-increasing tryptophan overload uninterruptedly unless and until the proper levels of b3 are given.

Source: Brain Allergies: The Psychonutrient Connection by William H. Philpott, MD and Dwight K. Kalita, Ph.D.

Taking high doses of nutritonal supplements is how you correct any king of nutritional deficiencies you may have. But taking high doses of nutrtional supplements is a lot like taking drugs and should only be done with the proper medical supervision. Sometimes people try some supplements which may not make them feel any better, and that is not because they don't have deficiencies but they are not taking either the proper doses or the proper combo of nutrients. If you miss just one nutrient in this process you can end up causing a whole net set of symptoms. You really need to work with a qualified doctor who has experience with treating nutritional deficiencies. I happen to think that orthomolecular training is great but not many doctors have this kind of background. It is not easy to find someone who knows how to treat nutritional deficiencies.

The internet may have a wealth of information, but sometimes you also have to do research with other sources, like books, articles, forums, etc. But, the right doctor is absolutely critical to this process.

I think it is important,
 

to clarify the statement that tryptophan is toxic.

From what I have learned about tryptophan is that it is converted to
niacin in ratios of 60mg tryptophan =1mg niacin.

It is an essential amino acid, and will also enhance formation of serotonin.
This later effect IN EXCESS is undesirable in schizophrenia. Some researchers
have found increased positive symptoms when serotonin levels increase in this patient population. (hence SSRIs are not recommended typically either).
http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000117/CH115.html

However, when reading ortho's post, it was not clear about that reference to
tryptophan. I would not call it "toxic" myself. This is a rather loaded word, and open to misinterpretation.

Tryptophan has to be transported across the blood brain barrier and is often blocked by 8 other aminos. So typically this feature prevents excessive
movement into the brain.

Tryptophan is toxic. But finding this reference on the internet is not that easy.

"In people who are even marginally vitamin B6 deficient, tryptophan may be rapidly degraded into mildly toxic metabolites such as hydroxykynurenine, xanthurenic acid and hydroxyanthranilic acid."

source:
http://intelegen.com/nutrients/ltryp...nswer_to_p.htm

Tryptophan will not pass the BBB from eating a high protein meal because it has to compete with other amino acids. That is why people craving carbohydrates may be low in tryptophan or serotonin. A high carb snack is the best way to supplement tryptophan or 5-htp so that it gets into your brain. And it is better to take 5-htp with a high carb snack than on an empty stomach. And if you don't have a b6 deficiency you may still want to supplement b6 when you take 5-htp (or tryptophan) just to be safe.

Tryptophan is considered a potentially toxic amino acid. There is no misinterpretation about that statement. HOW it becomes toxic depends on which of several different pathways it can follow in the brain. But this toxicity is not that commonly known about. And if not supplementing enough of ALL necessary b vitamins (in the right doses) then it is likely to become toxic.

I think if anyone wants to increase their tryptophan levels they would be better off taking some form of niacin (with vitamin b6, of course).

Orthomolecular

I am interested to know if you are a physician, or a pharmacist, or in any other way qualified to make such emphatic statements and recommendations?

Or are you stating your opinion, based on your own experience and/or research?

Current Vitamin/Nutrient Regimen
 

As previously mentioned, here is my current vitamin/nutrient regimen. This continues to be subject to change as research continues. I started out with a higher dosage of some of these and then reduced down to a "maintenance" level. I have also tried some other nutrients/herbs/amino acids, but have not continued on the ones that didn’t seem to help. One of the nutrients I tried was magnesium taurate, but it didn’t seem to help with the headaches and I also had an initial negative reaction between it and the Toprol XL, so I am not taking it right now.

Thanks for any input!

Note: I am providing my neurologist with these supplement lists.

It is your interpretation that my statement was emphatic. It is not my opinion if it is based on facts.

I stated a fact that I supported with one website and one reference from a book I own. Philpott is an MD, the other other of that book, Kalita, is a phd.

Asking me a personal question is making this personal about me. I won't dignify that question.


http://www.ceri.com/fftrypto.htm
"In addition, tryptophan catabolism in the brain and peripheral tissues produces toxic chemicals which stimulate excitatory neurotransmitter pathways."
"Given the known adverse influences of some IDO-induced tryptophan metabolites, supplementing tryptophan may be an inappropriate strategy."

Another reference to tryptophan metabolites (that are potentially toxic) but in reference to AD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

One subcellular mechanism which may underlie degeneration of neurons in AD is decreased axonal transport with accumulation of enzymes and their potentially toxic metabolites in the cell body.

These three metabolites of tryptophan are toxic: hydroxykynurenine, xanthurenic acid and hydroxyanthranilic acid. Therefore tryptophan can be toxic if it is not converted properly. That toxicity depends on the pathway it takes in the brain. To avoid the possibility of toxicity there has to be enough b6 and niacin.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...6&blobtype=pdf

Actually Orthomolecular, I wasnt referring to any one particular statement or recommendation........and I was INTERESTED not being critical:rolleyes:

I have noticed that you often have very fixed views and do, in my opinion, make very emphatic statements and recommendations and so I was just curious as to whether this was from training, or experience.

Emphatic usually means people are confident in what they are talking about, so sorry that you took it as some kind of personal criticism. It was not.
It was simply a question based on observation of your detailed posts.

comment...
 

When there are errors in genetic expression of enzymes, biochemically the body does go wonky. Many things may fail to work properly. That is why we have syndromes and disease. When certain cofactors (vitamins) are missing or are needed in dependency states (pyroluria), you cannot blame the substrate, which in this case is the essential amino acid tryptophan.

However, in reality tryptophan is NOT toxic. It is an essential amino acid, which means we have to have it ...or suffer.

Genetic errors in metabolism occur for many other substances, and I guess the interpretation of that is what is being questioned here.

A very special case, does not generalize to everyone, or to the general population. When things break down, due to deficiency or genetic error, the conclusions are not generalizable to others who do NOT have those errors.

This is a very good resource, and does not include tryptophan "toxicity".
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...cin/index.html

The only significant tryptophan toxicity occurred during manufacture years ago in Japan, which led to EMS due to a chemical contaminant during that manufacture (which was called Peak X). This has been corrected and tryptophan is now available as a single amino acid again. Much of what I have read states that high doses are self limiting, and that more conservative use
reaps better results.

Dear mrsd,

Thanks for looking over this thread. If you have any additional ideas, they would be greatly appreciated. You had given me some good tips on OBT.

Thanks! :)

Dear west1...
 

I am curious as to what reaction you had with the magnesium taurate.
Your dose of Toprol is very low, a minimum really, and at this dose side
effects are not common.

I have very little experience with Vit K use over the counter. I confess I am
a bit afraid of it actually, since people tend to have clotting issues more than "bleeding" ones. I really see Vit K used on RX frequently in the hospital and long term care facilities because of the difficulty in maintaining Warfarin doses.
People can be very brittle with Warfarin, going up and down all the time. So K
is typically used to fix Warfarin dosing. People in USA are very prone to
Cox-2 cytokines, the stress ones, which tend to cause platelet clumping. So use of K OTC makes me nervous, thinking one could inadvertently increase clotting risks. People with good EFA status..like you are doing, are less at risk, since the Cox-2s are balanced by the Cox-1s.

On the horizon are new anti-clotting agents, which will be better I think, but they are still in testing.

I think your CoQ-10 is low. This nutrient works better in higher doses. I use 150mg when I take it (which is not every day).

You have put alot of thought and effort into your list...and that shows.
Just remember that the zinc elemental is probably around 7mg/tab and the copper is also less than 2mg I would expect. Did you have a zinc/copper ratio drawn? You may not need ALOT of copper, unless you tend to be anemic, or have joint issues.

I found that with time, my needs for certain nutrients changed. I don't take as much B6 now like I did in the past. I also get more EFAs from foods now, since they are being added. (Smart Balance). I still need magnesium, potassium, and I take Cod Liver oil concentrate in the winters now. I have been ramping up my Thiamine as well. But I think AGE has alot to do with things. When I start up at the gym, I will be going back to my old faves. Activity seems to stress out my muscles, etc. That is my weakness. Each person has a "weakness" I think, that is genetic. So see how you feel on this list...and be open to tweeking it.;)

re:
 

Thanks mrsd for your comments.

I had tried magnesium taurate earlier in the Summer for the headaches and it didn’t seem to help much for that. Regarding Toprol and magnesium, I had a few strange initial side effects after first starting Toprol XL. I actually began having some chest pains, as well as leg cramps and fatigue. I took a couple magnesium taurate capsules (125 mg each) during this time and the “chest pains” got worse. I took a BP reading during this time (I had previously bought a portable BP monitor) and the reading was 119/106 (strange diastolic) at 55 pulse rate. I got an appt. with my PCP doctor (who had prescribed it) a few days later and he couldn’t find anything out of the ordinary. Within several days after onset, these side effects gradually faded away and I have had no further issues (for well over 2 months now). I have since been a little wary of taking any more magnesium though while on Toprol.

Regarding Vitamin K, I would also be wary about taking Vitamin K1 (the one that primarily effects coagulation) as well, but Vitamin K2 appears to be potentially very good. One of the nutrients I researched was Vitamin K (see Vitamin K, Reference Information) as it is one of the potentially depleted nutrients of GABA-A receptor complex agonists (sedatives, etc.). There is currently a lot of research and some excitement going on with Vitamin K2, as there is with Vitamin D. If you get a chance, try to look over this information and see what you think.

I am mainly taking CoQ10 as it is a nutrient potentially depleted by Toprol XL (metoprolol), per the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook. I referenced CoQ10 at Dr. Sahelian’s site http://www.raysahelian.com/coq10.html for dosage information, but I will consider your recommendation to increase the dose. Regarding copper, I initially thought I might be overloaded (causing the headaches), which is why I requested the copper test, but the test result was actually low.

I am a little leery about posting so much detail, but I am just tired of telling doctors my symptoms and getting that “blank stare” from them and I know there are those such as yourself who are knowledgeable and willing to help. This is also why I began doing my own research (as I have felt like it). The constant “dullness” and headaches are what continue to bother me the most and all of these issues have kept me from working for a long time. Maybe this information may also be of some help to others.

I suffered daily headaches and then migraines followed as I got older.

When my son was deemed 'celiac', our whole house went gluten free.

Then my Mom gave us some Lindt Chocolate Easter bunnies (Lindt uses malt but at the time I didn't know that malt was gluten). I suffered for 3 days after that/those :eek::o bunnies!!

Please do look at food reaction as the number one cause for any type of headache.

I did an elimination diet and every once in a while do a 'fast' so that I can retest something that seems suspect. Grains seem to be very troublesome for both my spouse and myself, as well as our two children (we have 3 but haven't given the youngest one any grains yet... and so don't know about his status).

Dairy can cause headaches and sinus. My dd get bone pain if she consumes it.... oh, earaches/infections also. She is a mirror of my mother who also suffers leg pain with dairy. We have isolated it down to the casein protein.

Eggs also cause sinus issues for me.... although they're fine in baked goods.

Check the foods you eat most... those would be the most likely culprits.

HTH

Update
 

As it has been a while now, I thought it would be a good time to update this status thread. As with previous posts, this post is a condensed version of information as it relates to the past few months, but is still rather lengthy.

I have continued to “tweak” my vitamin/nutrient regimen, adding/deleting/modifying supplements and dosages as research continues, and continuing to provide my doctors with updates. I feel this is turning into a never-ending task with trying to find the right combinations of nutrients to alleviate the side effects/damage and continues to be extremely time consuming (see “Commentary” below). My current regimen is as follows and has not changed considerably within the past several weeks:

As mentioned previously, I was put on Toprol XL for hypertension and stayed on that drug for a few months. Eventually however I got the impression that the Vitamin D intake was helping with the hypertension and I eventually weaned myself off of that drug. I then began taking magnesium taurate again. Thus far blood pressure has remained pretty well under control.

…

Also as mentioned previously, Acetyl-L-Carnitine (along with Alpha-Lipoic Acid added shortly after) has helped with many of the “neurological” problems (perhaps more accurately defined as neuropsychological problems), which were brought on by the medications. I had experienced significantly reduced mentation, intense “brain fog”, and chronic fatigue (both mentally and physically) for the better part of the past several years. This in itself had been excruciatingly debilitating. The most interesting thing regarding starting these supplements (ALC and ALA) was an almost immediate (within 1-2 days) significant attenuation of the intense “brain fog”. Prior research regarding supplements had indicated to me that it usually takes a period of time before any positive effects can be felt. Through continued study and research, I have learned that carnitine and lipoate are two substances critical to mitochondrial function and energy production at the cellular level (ATP production via fatty acid oxidation within the Krebs Cycle, etc.). I chose Acetyl-L-Carnitine (acetyl ester of L-carnitine) instead of “regular” L-Carnitine as I had read it crosses the blood-brain barrier better.

Another extremely interesting finding I uncovered is the apparent direct relationship between carnitine deficiency (or abnormal metabolism) and the very undesirable/dangerous lipid Lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a).

Here are a couple more information links regarding Lipoprotein(a):
http://www.lipid.org/clinical/patients/1000002.php
http://www.preventive-cardiology.com...rotein%20a.htm

Recall via a previous post in this thread that my Lipoprotein(a) level was over three times the high cutoff point as referenced by the lab http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...8&d=1162756782.

The following Medline studies document this apparent direct relationship between carnitine deficiency (or abnormal metabolism) and elevated Lipoprotein(a):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

The following quotes are from the first study above:
It should be noted that I am not overweight, do not smoke, drink, or otherwise have an unusual lifestyle or diet that should predispose a lipid value of this level.

The following Medline study also stresses that certain Conditionally Essential Nutrients (CENs) become essential nutrients, comparable to vitamins, under physiologically stressful conditions and medical practitioners need to be knowledgeable of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

…

Regarding the constant headaches, “dullness”, and strange sensations in the forehead and surrounding area, these have continued and I have found nothing as yet that seems to provide much help. I had been put on various medications for pain over the past several months such as Neurontin (Gabapentin), Lyrica (Pregabalin), and Flexeril (Cyclobenzaprine), but none of these seemed to help.

Through further study and research, including anatomy of the head and scalp, I was able to determine the source of the headaches. The pain primarily tracks along the Ophthalmic branches of the Trigeminal Nerves (5th set of cranial nerves) in the area of the Supraorbital Nerves. Therefore, it appears that I have Supraorbital Neuralgia, probably of the “atypical” type. As apparently with all cranial nerves, the supraorbitals (trigeminals) are paired, and the right set of nerves appears to be more damaged than the left. After sharing this information with my doctor, I have recently been receiving nerve block injections. These have provided some relief, but don’t seem to last very long. I am also experimenting with topical anesthetic cremes prepared by a local compounding pharmacy.

I also received acupuncture for this condition for a good amount of time, but this didn’t seem to help very much either. The acupuncturist (OMD doctor) was however quite knowledgeable regarding nutrition and supplements. Even with the recommendations he provided, he could not order blood tests to confirm any additional deficiencies. OMDs, as well as apparently most other practitioners (other than MDs), are not allowed to order blood tests where I live. (I think this is a tragedy, see “Commentary” below).

…

I have recently found a couple labs, in addition to SpectraCell http://www.spectracell.com/, that perform nutritional/metabolic type testing. These labs have test profiles that are even more comprehensive than SpectraCell (cover more amino acids, minerals, etc.). I am negotiating with my doctor(s) for additional tests:

Metametrix Clinical Laboratory http://www.metametrix.com
Genova Diagnostics http://www.gdx.net

…

Through all of my research I have now amassed several hundred web links relating to evidence based vitamin/supplement research (mostly links to Medline/PubMed studies, etc.) categorized via nutrient type. I have documented many in this forum so far and will plan to continue to add information as time permits.


===

Commentary (subject to editing):
----------------------------------

With all due respect to the medical community, my experiences over the past several years leads me to believe that there is a severe lack of knowledge of nutritional aspects of health with many (most?) medical doctors in the United States. I have taken every drug and followed every recommendation given and continued to decline. Amazingly part of my “treatment” included “therapy” and the use of various psychotropic drugs. I told every doctor that I believed the problems were due to the medications I was already taking and the response was always (in round-about ways) that this was not possible. In the history of the world, does anyone know of a case where “therapy” and adding more drugs solved significant drug-induced vitamin/nutrient deficiencies? :rolleyes: Clearly drug-induced nutrient depletions/deficiencies appear to be the root cause of all of the aforementioned issues. It was not until I had spent the better part of the last 3-4 years on the internet researching (and dealing with severe “brain fog”, etc.), finally finding information that began to explain my symptoms, taking this evidence into the doctors, and (for the most part) requesting the appropriate tests. Fortunately the doctor I’m seeing now appears open to dealing with nutritional health, but I am still taking copies of Medline studies, etc. in with me to back up everything that I discuss.

I do not blame the doctors as all were very intelligent and I believe they did all they knew to do. I believe the responsibility rests squarely with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for failing (or refusing) to provide guidance for nutritional intake with the use of prescription drugs. The following is a quote from pp. 10-11 of the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, 2nd Edition, of which I own (this book, written by four RPhs (Registered Pharmacists), one being a PhD, appears to now be discontinued from the Publisher, but information may still be found here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...postcount=14):

With the evidence based information that I have collected and stored here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...5&postcount=14, there should be no question of the importance of these issues. Although it might be argued that the majority of the drugs I have taken are as yet “undocumented”, with the research of the pharmacology/action of the primary drugs I have taken over the long-term and corresponding correlations to other drugs (documented within the first post of this thread), I believe I have provided ample evidence as to the “cause and effect”. Also, with the FDA adopting processes such as “collecting funds directly from the drug manufacturers”, for example as referenced http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...95&postcount=6 and http://www.fdastudy.com/, it makes one wonder if the “foxes are paying the chickens for permission to guard the coop”.

Please do not misunderstand. As stated previously, I am not against the use of prescription drugs. In fact I still need them in order to sleep. The issue, as I have clearly referenced, is the apparent failure of the responsible government entity to provide guidance in an area in which the amount of evidence appears overwhelming. Please note that I have provided detailed documentation of all associated items.

…

All of these issues over the years have taken a toll on myself and my family. I have been unable to work for the past several years, have spent many thousands of dollars seeing doctors, getting “therapy”, etc., have depleted a substantial portion of my life’s savings, and it may have destroyed my previous professional career. I have also spent the past few years of my life (full time as I have felt like it) researching why I continued to have these issues. I had considered applying for disability, but having been without a solid diagnosis and reading other “horror stories” of people waiting for years and still not getting approved, it seemed likely that this would be an uphill battle. Perhaps I may now have the evidence needed, I’m not sure.

…

Any comments regarding any of this would be appreciated, especially from people with backgrounds in medicine, biochemistry, life sciences, etc. Any additional recommendations regarding supplements would also be appreciated.

Won't get any argument from me.
 

I believe you are on to something, and also agree that nutrient depletion due to pharmaceuticals is a bigger problem than most realize, and that most doctors are not well-versed in nutrition at all.

Though I'm sure others will be along to comment, the only thing I noticed in your list of supplements that might need some tweaking is tha you seem to have a low dose of alpha lipoic acid if you are seeking a synergistic effect with the carnitine for control of neurological issues. Most of the studies on this from Europe--Germany in particular, where it is a prescription substance--show optimal effects at does in the 600-1200mg/day range (although in a lot of studies this is accomplished intravenously--there is less support for salutary effects of oral supplementation). It is true that one can take lower doses if one is taking the R-lipoic form--the ration usually cited is a 6:1 to 10:1 exchange.

Unless you have other issues--intolerance of the acidity, or blood sugar issues (lipoic has considerable blood glucose downregulating effects, and is an intriguing possibility for diabetics looking to get off meds) you might want to try bumping it up a bit when you are taking alpha lipoic. I have found that 100mg R-lipoic does seem to roughly correspond to about 600mg alpha lipoic. Weight does have to be factored in--I am 210 lbs., so those smaller may need less.

This is a great post.
 

Thanks for keeping us up to date, west1.

Your perseverance is starting to pay off.

Your supplement list is well thought out.

I'd further suggest you put those testing labs links into Useful Websites here
so others can find them easily.

Also any links you can share that you feel can help others, please share those too!

Drug induced nutrient depletions are a huge factor in the loss of quality of life in this country.

And there is a new book out...called the Side Effect Bible by Frederic Vagnini MD... which is a bit
newer than the Pelton/Ross text. It is less technical but has some newer data in it. It is targeted
more for the layman too, but is not expensive. I got mine at Amazon.

Thanks
 

Thanks to those who have commented.

I have read over what I have written above many times attempting to find any possible errors in logic, but can find none. The evidence is solid. I guess I am just amazed that something like this could happen. Note that I had already begun taking certain vitamins before any tests were even run, so certain values were most likely even worse than documented, and I’m sure it had been that way for years. After going for years (all the way back to 1999) not knowing why the drugs were making me sick, it all makes sense now.

I trust references such as the Drug-Induced Nutrient Depletion Handbook, which I have based much of my logic on, as the authors acquired all information from Medline. All referenced abstracts are even included in the book!

Additional Test Results
 

After continued nerve block injection treatments with only temporary partial relief of the neuralgia, my neurologist referred me to another doctor (MD) who specializes in nutrition and environmental medicine. This was an excellent referral as this doctor is familiar with all of the aforementioned labs/tests (e.g. SpectraCell, Metametrix, Genova) and appears to very well understand my description of symptoms (I wish I had known about this doctor back in 1999 after the initial onset of drug “side-effect” symptoms). This doctor was open to ordering additional testing from the aforementioned labs, however unfortunately my insurance doesn’t cover this doctor and most of the tests from these labs are rather expensive. It was suggested that I get a hair mineral analysis done. This is a relatively inexpensive set of tests and covered additional minerals that I had not yet been tested for. Needless to say, the results turned out to be quite surprising:

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...5&d=1178031264
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...6&d=1178031343
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...7&d=1178031401
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...8&d=1178031438

The doctor was mainly concerned about the elevated aluminum and arsenic levels and recommended that these be targeted before working on the other “non-toxic” minerals. I am now on an EDTA chelation regimen using this product (I am getting the chelator from the doctor and not from this web site, more details below in my updated vitamin/nutrient regimen). Per mrsd’s post here http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...edta#post72949, I have also included some additional chromium.

I have been attempting to learn more about toxic metals and have collected a number of web links, however any input from anyone would (as always) be appreciated. From what I have learned, it is my understanding that elevated levels of toxic metals are not commonly diagnosed in the U.S. and is generally believed to happen mostly to people working in specific industries or working with certain chemicals. Aluminum is fairly ubiquitous and exists in numerous products (incl. antiperspirants, antacids, etc.), but the body can supposedly excrete aluminum relatively efficiently in most cases. Arsenic is used in certain pesticides, treated lumber, and can be absorbed by other means, but elevated arsenic is supposedly not very common. I have not worked in the metallurgy industry in the past. I have used a few pesticides/chemicals around the home (following all safety information), but none that I know of with arsenic as the active ingredient (based on the labels). It is my understanding however that deficiencies and/or imbalances in nutritional minerals (and possibly vitamins also) can over time cause a person to absorb toxic metals much more readily than otherwise would be absorbed. I have of course had various long-term vitamin/nutrient depletions/deficiencies (drug-induced), as previously documented in this thread. Note the high hair zinc (indicative of cellular zinc deficiency) that is consistent with the zinc deficiency documented last year in the SpectraCell tests (http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...9&d=1162758249 and http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...&d=1162758307). It appears the zinc supplementation over the past several months hasn’t done much good (absorption perhaps blocked by the toxic metals).

It is my understanding that there may be some differences in opinion between conventional/allopathic and complementary/alternative medicine regarding the value of “nutritional” hair analysis, but both sides appear to agree on the value of toxic metal hair analysis. Also there may not (yet) be a universal standard that all labs follow for reference ranges, but it is my understanding that this lab (Doctor’s Data, Inc.) has been providing hair testing longer and has more experience than most (if not all) labs that perform this testing.

…

While continuing to search for additional information on neuralgia/neuropathy (prior to receiving the hair analysis results), I came across information on some additional supplements that might help. Most of the following information is related to diabetic neuropathy and although I have not technically been diagnosed with diabetes, the previous SpectraCell Glucose-Insulin Interaction test (http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...9&d=1162758249 and http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/at...0&d=1162758307) was near borderline. Along with other nutrients, this information stresses the importance of Omega 6 based Gamma-Linolenic Acid (GLA). Of the 3 main oils that contain GLA (borage, black currant, evening primrose), borage oil appears to contain the highest concentration:

http://www.larrylands.com/lark/TR12_...-Nutrients.PDF
http://www.geocities.com/bsy53/dn/neuropat.html
http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library...s/diabetes.php
http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library...s_Diabetes.php
http://www.sbrc.ca/ncarm/PDF/Borage%...l%20Report.pdf

This reference http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001407.htm states:
…

The following is my current/updated regimen. This is a LOT of supplements and I hope I can cut down on some of them eventually. As always, any input is greatly appreciated! :)

I was under the impression that the high zinc in your hair may indicate faulty mineral transport. Andrew Hall Cutler is the one who says that if there is any problem with mercury this will effect mineral transport for many heavy metals. He has these counting rules which I can't remember now.

Even if your mercury is low in the hair analysis, I think this can happen, that you have a mercury problem. I think Cutler says that if other heavy metals are high and mercury is low then you might suspect that mercury is a problem too. You might consider asking if your doctor will check for porphyrins in your urine. Mercury effects porphyrins so this is another test that might help you pin down the exact nature of your problem.

But mercury is the one heavy metal that can effect so many other heavy metals and how they get transported in the body. And even mercury levels will be effected because mercury too does not get tranported properly in the body. This I think explains why some studies about austic children who the hair is high in zinc but these children show signs of low zinc levels (or low blood zinc levels). Cutler's explanation is the only one I have seen that seems to explain how the hair zinc can be so much different than the blood results or the indications of a zinc deficiency.

I have two books by Cutler that I purchased together. I am not sure if they are sold together, but they do have a lot of information about this subject.

Thanks
 

Thanks orthomolecular for your input. I have actually come across some of this information as well. I believe one of the books you reference may be this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Test-Inte...8217474&sr=1-2

From reading some of the online excerpts, I get the impression that Dr. Cutler’s theories include the possibility that as certain heavy metals are chelated out, the hair mercury level can actually rise and then fall later upon continued chelation (I would have to read more to be sure of this though). The biochemical intricacies regarding heavy metal toxicity and chelation seem quite complex to me at this point and I feel like I am at “square one” in the learning process, but having gone through several years and a number of doctors who were trying to fix what turned out to be significant vitamin deficiencies by doping me up on various antidepressants and anxiolytics, I am willing to give chelation a try. The doctor I am now seeing wants to take things slow/steady so as to alleviate any potential side effects (I think that’s a good plan). Also as hair tests are not too expensive, I’m sure I can get more later if needed to check the progress. Thanks again!

hair tests are gaining in popularity...
 

There was an AMA article about success of them(a while back) which totally depends on the quality of the laboratory. Good labs... okay, bad labs= useless.

I don't know how to interpret them however. I do know that free floating
heavy metals do show up more in hair than tissue bound metals.

I find your experiences west1 very interesting...and you are bound to be helping others with this new diagnostic path you are taking. And good that you start slow and easy.

Your posts are very informative, and a great asset to this board!

Yes, I have the Hair Test Interpretations book by Cutler and Amalgm Illness by him too.

Are you taking any amino acids? I have to take vitamins, minerals, amino acids, EFAs and enzymes (digestive and systemic). The amino acids are so important if you have any problems with b6. I have a b6 dependency so I am low in serotonin and dopamine and take lots of amino acids. The sulfur containing amino acids are important and can help with chelating heavy metals. I had to increase my zinc levels because I started taking cysteine. Cysteine is great for all sorts of toxins because of its role in gluthionine, but it also chelates things like zinc. The amino acids would really be the natural substitute for any type of psychiatric meds.

I wonder if your doctor has not done a urine and blood test for amino acids. This test can help to indicate some vitamin deficiencies. The most obvious being if your body is not converting tryptophan into serotonin that would likely indicate a b6 deficiency. But I believe that other vitamin deficiencies can be pinpointed with the amino acid tests.

Re:
 

Hi orthomolecular,

My current supplement regimen is included in this post. Regarding additional tests, I would like to have more tests done, but unfortunately many tests tend to be rather expensive and I doubt my insurance would cover them (insurance companies here in the U.S. still tend to frown on medical care that they don’t consider “conventional”). The hair tests were reasonably priced and appeared to provide some good information. My current doctor, although a highly credentialed MD, also doesn’t like to deal with insurance companies (probably for the same reasons). I feel comfortable with this doctor as this doctor hasn’t given me that “blank stare” when I discuss my symptoms. If this doctor recommends additional tests, I will certainly attempt to find ways to pay for them.

Thanks to you, mrsd, and everyone else for your input, and thanks to DocJohn and all who support NeuroTalk. This is a great place to share information! :)

I can tell you the B Vitamins are working for me! Depression, GAD, and now PN. Effexor XR, Zyrtec, both current but Effexor down to 9.3 mgs as I'm weaning off. I took Gabapentin for approximately 6 months, became suicidally depressed and stopped taking it when I finally figured out that the Gabapentin was the problem.

Since starting the B vitamins and especially the B-12 I have no more fatigue like I used to have: Most days couldn't get through without a nap. No energy, no ambition, nothing. Some other symptoms that I believe may have been caused by a lack of B-12 are also abating. I've been taking the B Vitamins for 30 or 31 days now.

Other than this I'm just beginning to start on some research of natural supplements, herbs and other things that might be causing some of my problems because of a deficiency.

Good for you! Apparently you are on the fast track!!

rose

Rose, your site is fantastic and is where my initial info came from that pointed me on to more in depth research. I have you to thank for my success and change in mental and physical condition! :hug:

Thank you
 

That makes me very happy! :)

rose

Additional Evidence: Toxic and Nutritional Mineral Interactions
 

As a follow-up to a previous post in this thread, I have found some interesting Medline studies that indicate/confirm increased toxic metal absorption/toxicity when nutritional minerals are deficient/depleted. As mentioned before, this would appear to be a very good explanation for the previous hair test results. Interesting quotes from the referenced abstracts are displayed below. By the way, I have now increased the dosage of the EDTA chelator to 1 teaspoon/day (still a rather low dose) per my doctor’s instructions:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...um&query_hl=19 (The full text version of this study also references certain vitamins which, when depleted, also lead to increased toxic metal absorption/toxicity.):

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=3

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=3

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=1

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=2 (This is an animal study, but probably applicable to humans as well.):

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=1

…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...sum&query_hl=1

Yes, I agree with that. If you are missing some mineral your body may take up some other metal as a replacement.

But I think that it is good to get your deficiencies corrected before going through chelation therapy. Chelation therapy may make some deficiencies worse because you lose some of the needed minerals in the process of getting rid of the unwanted metals.

I am surprised that your doctor is doing the chelation with you at this stage. Do you understand his logic for doing chelation before getting your nutrtional status completely corrrected?

Thanks orthomolecular for your input. It appears that part of the problem may be the toxic minerals blocking absorption of the nutritional minerals. For example, I have been supplementing with zinc picolinate (supposedly one of the more absorbable zinc supplements) for quite some time now, but apparently, per the hair result, may still be deficient intracellularly. My doctor is in agreement with my current supplementation regimen, but has commented that I may not be absorbing all of the supplements due to the toxic minerals.

The oral chelator I am using (as I understand) is supposedly a more “gentle” type than some of the other chelator chemicals (e.g. DMPS, DMSA, etc.). I feel there is a lot that I still don’t know regarding toxic minerals and chelation, but I am continuing to read and trying to learn all I can.

If you are only taking 22 mg. of that zinc piconolate I think that dose is way too low. I have a dependency of zinc, so my dose will always be high (for the rest of my life). But when you are treating a deficiency you have to work with high doses. You don't start out really high but you increase the dose as your body gets used to the one you are taking.

How do you know when to stop increasing the dose? You should feel that the symptoms for that deficiency have gone away completely. My nails would usually break when my zinc level was low. If you listen to your body you can usually get some clues to when the dose is enough and when it is not enough.

I take more that 500 mg. of zinc each day. That is not the dose I recommend you even consider. But I think that 22 mg. of zinc is not enough to correct a deficiency.

You should be changing that dose, increasing it higher every few weeks.

The same with some other nutrients. You can't start out with that high a dose but you can work up to higher doses over time.

William Walsh of the Pfeiffer Institute talks about how promoting MT will help the body get rid of the heavy metals. And his method of promoting MT is to take at least 60 to 80 mg. of zinc. And I think that is the dose to take and not the amount you take each day. So you should be starting with that kind of dose with meals, all meals, and then try to increase that. Usually you should wait about two weeks to make sure your body has adjusted to that dose before you consider increasing it. And the increase should be less than 50% of the existing dose. Too much of an increase will cause problems, so try increasing the dose about 25% or 30% each time.

http://www.hputest.nl/lit109.doc

This link is some notes and may seem unorganized. But Walsh is a leading authority on MT which is a special group of proteins that gets heavy metals and other toxins out of the body via the urine mostly. There may be some other sites which mention his methods if you do a search.

Hi West,
What a VERY interesting thread!

I used to take Dalmane for years. In London in the 70s the doctor gave me these huge precriptions, the bottle I'd get from the chemist would be like the big bottles one sees of vitamin C. And they were 30mg.

When there was a lot of stress I'd take them during the day, every four hours, and they just barely kept me from bouncing off the walls.

But then recently, in 2001, I moved into my condo where there was hydrogen sulfide that I didn't know about. I began to fall a lot, so I felt as if I couldn't take the Dalmane any more, because it did knock me out for good, sound sleep, but it also made me less steady if I got up during the night... only see, I didn't know about the hydrogen sulfide. So I'm not really sure how much it was the Dalmane to blame, as opposed to the h.s.

Okay... what I want to be sure to say, is that now I am sleeping 8+ hours a night and LOVING it.

That's with no Dalmane, but a lot of B12 replacement, and magnesium every day with vitamin C to aid in absorption. Apparently magnesium is about as hard for some people to absorb as B12.

Then, I also have amino acids (whey amino acids) in my coffee a couple times a day... and I am pretty certain that has helped with the remarkable reduction I've had in back pain.

I also take serrapeptase because of some dental infection problems and the pain in my back... so it's most likely contributed as well.

What I sometimes wonder is whether the serrapeptase helps me sleep because I take it at night (you can't have anything to eat for hours before or after taking it) and the capsules rather remind me of the Dalmane... so I wonder if my body goes so deeply to sleep because it thinks the capsules are the Dalmane... (silly body) But, who knows.

I just know that I'm sleeping a LOT better.


Well, thank you again for a GREAT thread!

:)

Magnesium deficiency is rampant. Probably mostly due to diet and the way food is produced now.

Mrsd's information on magnesium is excellent. Worth looking up here for any who have not already.

rose

I sure didn't know that we need a bit of acid in order to make use of the magnesium in food. But we do.

Here's my list of foods containing magnesium:
http://www.health-boundaries-bite.co...Magnesium.html

I always take my magnesium supplement with either vitamin C, or hydrochloric acid.

Not everyone can take hydrochloric acid... but I read this really interesting thing about how a little of it can keep people from getting h.pylori...

h.pylori in the stomach lining can be a cause of low B12, and presumably low magnesium, also.

:)

Just taking my stab at this topic. I also was taking Toprol and a minimum dosage level to control my blood pressure. I was going from 169/100 to 140/85. Was going to have wisdom teeth removed and they said my blood pressure was too high and that he was scared my heart would stop. Being the good person that I am I started taking the pills. Toprol is just not for me however. It did help me a little with my over thinking. But at the same time it Robs you of the mental energy to get things done. It didn't take me long to figure out that I might need vitamins to counter act this drug effects. Started taking Centrum Silver and love it. I take this because it has no Iron and for my blood type I just can't process extra Iron, it makes me sick. That helped at first, but I felt there was more I could be doing. A few months later the Doctor told me that my Lipids are very high! It was fine before taking the beta blocker. It was at 1500. I started going on 30min ~ 1hr walks during my lunch, mostly after work 5 days a week. Sure enough I lost 10 pounds. Was at 225 pounds and down to 215. Tested my blood again and the score went down to 600's. Doc was still not happy with that and said he might need to put me on something. I started to change my diet this time. Stopped drinking that RockStar energy drinks. Stopped eating beef and replaced it with Ground Turkey, that IMHO tastes better! Ground Turkey makes a good Chili and Taco. A few months of that and my blood fat score was down to 330's range. It was better but still not perfect. Then they put my on a water pill. Talk about needing vitamins if ever. I ran out of vitamins and ran into many problems of feeling tired, muscles hurt, sneezing and coughing ect.. If that was not enough they took me of the Toprol finally. Was very noticeable the mental clarity was back. Then they started me on an ACE- Inhibitor. Stated coughing again and had allergy like symptoms about 2 months into it. I was ready to blame the drug for these problems. They put me on Allegra and I broke out in Hives and had numbness in my hands and feet, plus was having problems breathing. Called the Doctor and they said to take some Benadryl. I was feeling tired and loopy on that stuff! Dam Doctors just pushing pills on me!! :mad: So I took things into my own hands. Stopped taking the Allegra and the Hives, Breathing and Numbness went away after a few days. Started taking Centrum Silver and the Numbness and Lag feeling started going away 100%. Started sipping on water bottles more often and went on long walks 5-days a week again because I stopped and weight was up to 220. A few weeks later they had my blood tested and all of my high blood counts dropped within their normal levels. Just doing those last few things have helped me out more than any pill have. My last Lipids score for Triglycerides was around 215 and was 1500 when we started the blockers. I blame the Toprol for the crazy blood work, so please get off of that! It will only kill you faster. The water pills almost require vitamins or you will have side effects and risk more damage to your heart. The Ace Inhibitors are known for the coughing, so it's a side effect you will have once in a while. But it's more known for just making a cough last longer and the reason for that I suspect in the lack of Vitamins. For everyone else just keep in mind that you are getting older and will need to watch things with an eagle eye. Good Luck :grouphug:

I was excited and happy to read your post West. I will re-read it again when I have more time (and wish I wasn't rushing out the door!)

Very sorry to read of all the woes you had with Ambien. I am a migraine patient and I can't take that medication very well. What I mean by that is 9 times out 10, Ambien will cause me to have a migraine.

Finding something to help me with insomnia is not really easy. Usually I rely on 1-3 mgs. of melatonin and some warm milk. Some of my migraine preventatives seem to make me sleepy as well. After I started an exercise routine, I started sleeping a little better and I am grateful for that. (BTW...I believe some neuros think that the B vitamins help with migraines as well as calcium, magnesium, CoQ10 and even melatonin).

My doc is very/ultra open minded when it comes to exploring the benefits of vitamin supplementation and often tests patients. A good year ago, he tested all of us and found many to be in need of additional B12. Hence, I take a B12 supplement. Since taking this, I do have a little more energy.

His latest concern is vitamin D. He gave me additional D2 to take and mentioned taking additional D in my Cal/Mag supplement. It seems much has been written about D3 and now I'm wondering if that is what he was talking about, if that would be better for me to take, or if that in fact is what is in those supplements anyway. Bottom line: D supplementation is up for discussion.

It is interesting/amazing how our foods and supplements can influence our body chemistry.

BTW...do you have any strong feelings regarding chelation therapy? Does a person take their supplements while undergoing chelation therapy? Do you have a good chelation therapy link?

Thank you very much for the links you have posted.

Hello West
I have just been told that I have very high levels of murcury and lead and I need chelation ..I want to find out as much as I can before embarking on what might cause more damage to myself ..can you help with any knowledge on this..when I read through the posts it sounds as though you are quite knowledgable on the subject...Thankyou for any help you may be able to give me Thanks Heather

West has not logged on since 2008... unless this poster has email notification for new posts, I don't think there will be a response to you.