Co-dependant?
 

I went to a support group meeting last week and they said that there was to be no "cross talk".
Meaning that you don't comment on other peoples sharing directly.
WE are to use I statements when sharing...they said this is to try and teach us to not be dependant on the others or try to make them co-dependant on us.
That we can't solve each others problems they are theirs/mine to work out for myself. I can't fix anybody and should stop trying.
This is all so different than the way I have been providing support.
How do you guys feel about this?
I guess this is the way I should be with my new therapist so that I don't become co-dependant on her?
bizi

I went to a multi-disorder rehabilitation center with alcoholics, addicts, anorexics, OCD, Bipolars and co-deps all together in one unit that was like that. I don't think it's a bad idea as an exercise now and again but I felt it was harsh on a daily basis.

Ironically among some therapists I think the term "co-dependant" is just a passive aggressive way of saying "personality disorder". The original meaning for this overused term as been lost.



(did I use the proper "I" statements? Oh, good! LOL ;) )

Bizi,

You are doing great!
Mari

well...
 

I don't get it, myself.

To me a co-dependent is an enabler to the person(s) who have issues/addictions.

I don't think group therapy is necessary for everyone.
People who are socially awkward, phobic or have addictions,
often enjoy them. But if your problems are more central to YOU then one on one can be more productive (but also more expensive).

Some therapists use transference heavily in one on one.
If yours does this, then the experience would be far different than your group style.

I was in therapy in the past for childhood abuse issues. One on one was useful for me to learn how to reframe and reduce PTSD. Listening to others' long stories and struggles, I found depressing, and useless. Remember the therapists tend to structure the group so there is at least one strong person in it.
If that is YOU then you don't get much benefit from it at all...you just enable the leader better. And you pay for that priviledge.

Bizi,

By the way.
Some people do very well in group support settings and some people stink at it. Sometimes, this has to do with birth order.

For example, my sister is a middle child and likes to be in groups. As the oldest, I hate groups.


Weight watchers is an example or even group exercise class.

My old tdoc used to tell me about all the benefits of group therapy. Everything he listed as an advantage sounded like a disadvantage to me.

I think it is great that we have many options for us to choose from -- and can let ourselves find what is right for us.

Mari

My therapist suggested I get the book:
Feel the fear and do it anyway. by Dr. Susan Jeffers.
Dynamic techniques for turning fear, and indecison into power, action and love.
So I did today....I have many fears so hope that this helps.
bizi

maybe the group can teach me how to be a better communicator....

bizi, I hadn't realized you didn't consider yourself a good communicator. You do just fine when you write.

I hope the book helps you overcome your fears. :hug:

It seems to me that the more cohesive a group is, the better and that some groups are better than others and some leaders are better (or are a better fit for some individuals) than others. Additionally, like some have already said, sometimes the group experience would be more suited for some than others.

I bought that book when it first came out and recall REALLY enjoying it!
I WISH I could locate it to re-read it...more than likely I gave it to someone.
It is one of the ones that a person might want to re-read. I have suggested that people read this book when they reach a "milestone" of some sort.

Wishing you well...I hope the book will be helpful and comforting.

Hi Bizi!

I have some strong feelings about this. First let me say I don't know the group or anything, so maybe this is all hot air... but:

For some of us being able to identify and reach out (uh, I think it is called empathy...) IS the therapeutic process. Some of us never thought we had anything to offer. Some of us never realized anyone else had the same feelings. Learning how it feels to share, and then see this help someone else is nothing less than extraordinary. As for narcissism or "co-dependence" - it is the group leader/facillitator/therapist's role to keep things moving in healthy directions. I've seen good and bad group therapists alike. Taking an interest in wanting to help someone, or share your solution to a similar problem is never a bad thing.

So I just don't get this really...

I think you've been *wonderfully* supportive to us here...

thank you all and nice to see you tritone.
I went again tonight....
there was a young woman there who shared and was crying after she was done sharing...she was jsut crying sitting there I felt so helpless sitting there watching her cry that I leaned over and patted her shoulder...which I know was wrong but could not help myself.
They explained to me that I was interferring in her ability to cry, grieve over an issue...her cousin was involved in an accidental shooting. I learned this later.
one of the other members then scooted over there to give her a hug which I was thankful for.
But to be honest...I was feeling very uncomfortable with her crying...I wanted her to stop crying.
It is hard watching someone suffer, she is a stranger to me. I was trying to control the situation....She is allowed to safely cry in the group with out my interferance.....sigh
After the meeting closed she got all sorts of hugs and support from the others and I never even said anything to her.
I realized that I reacted to my discomfort.
That doesn't make me feel very good.
I am uncomfortable with strong emotions, I feel numb....I try to do the right thing, say the right thing, act how I am supposed to act,
but having feelings...this is foreign to me....
~sigh
bizi
I am going to keep going, they are kind people, I think I can learn alot from them....and not take charge which is my first inclination...
I said no when the leader asked me to participate in something,
out reach stuff.

thank you tritone,
I think that the support at the co-dependant support group is different than the support here on the forums if that makes sense, I said in a prior thread that I want to be more like my on line self in real life.
I freeze most of the time unable to participate in conversations due to many fears....I am just starting this process again.
no quick fixes here. The group is very supportive in its own way, it is more thoughtful and internal work, that is where I can improve my self esteem, it is an internal job no one can do this work for me.
thanks again for your support.
bizi

-

Me too...

As for the person crying, your reaction and this allowing the person to grieve comment - I'm not sure.

It reminds me of the idea that parents shouldn't "spoil" their kids when they are little by giving them too much attention, or not picking them up when they cry, etc... I don't agree with that idea.

I think it is human nature, healthy human nature. You felt uncomfortable because you were identifying with her pain. I don't think that is bad. I certainly don't think it is inhibiting her.

If she were trying to manipulate the group with her crying I might understand it a little bit more, the same way I'd understand a parent trying to push a slightly older child into being more independent. But even still - I don't see how your feelings or comforting her were wrong or not helpful.

It would be the therapist's job to steer the group back on course - then maybe force her to work out those feelings with the group that would allow you all collectively to see it for what it was - an attempt to manipulate, or just a release of emotion...

Yes, it is easy to sit here and make comments or analyses... But its what we do and I think it is really helpful. I've carried these online conversations into my "real" life many, many times... It does take time. The beauty of these online forums is that we can process things with other people, over a period of time, and with an anonymity we don't have in the real world... Its like practicing an instrument or studying... At some point the learning becomes practical knowledge and we incorporate into our real lives.

At least it seems to work that way to me...

Wish I could just hook myself up to that machine they have in the Matrix and download it :D That was deep...

I can see what the therapist is trying to do; but when it comes to the woman crying I'm with you. There is no way I could sit there and watch someone's heart breaking and do nothing while they cry. The little pat was an act of kindness and empathy, not co dependancy. You didn't try to talk for her, you didn't try to interfere with her grieving...you just offered a kind hand.

I am glad that you have goals for these groups! You will be able to take what you need, and use those parts to your advantage!

You are right tritone, I don't know her reasons for crying I never thought that she might be manipulating the group to get attention...These are her friends. I guess people cry in public for many reasons.
I rarely cry... I cried more in the past few weeks but have been hypomanic...is that the only way that I can express myself allow myself to have feelings and express them is when I am hypomanic?

Do you cry in front of other people?
Is crying linked somehow to being vulnerable?
bizi

I cry at movies, when they light the Rockefeller Christmas Tree, and begin the Macy's Parade... I very, very rarely cry at real things. I cried at my Dad's funeral. I only cry at the most traumatic things - other than the movies/etc...

I thought about this quite a bit. The theory I came up with is that the real stuff is just too overwhelming - whereas the lighting of the tree or whatever just touches itty bitty little pieces of things that I can have feelings about without falling apart in a bigger way. Does that make any sense?

I grew up with that thing that men aren't supposed to cry - and that strong/accomplished/successful people don't cry. I guess I realized that was pretty much false, but I still felt embarrassed. Not so much vulnerable as embarrassed. The last time I cried in front of anyone was that doctor in that nasty place back in May.


Maybe being hypomanic you give yourself the ok to express those things. Or maybe being hypomanic they just have a little more power and presence.

Sometimes I wish I could just have a good cry about things. I find it hard. On the other hand, playing music or working on some creative/fun project can sometimes be as cathartic.

I of course don't know anything about the woman in your group. I know that some of us have issues where we crave attention from other people and I read into this that perhaps your leader was saying not to comfort her because you were feeding that habit or something... Regardless of whether she was sincere or not sincere I still think that you should be allowed to act on your feelings to reach out... If she were truly not sincere, then it would be the therapist's job to gently place focus on her, why she was crying, how other people reacted, etc... Of course I don't know any of this for sure, that was just the picture I formed.

What really bothered me is that you felt bad about reaching out. That's just wrong.

PS - when I say "some of us crave attention" I mean I sometimes do. I wasn't meaning this in reference to anyone in particular.

I am having a hard time understanding how vulnerabilty plays into relationships in general.
This is required for true intimacy.
How do you learn to be truely vulnerable?????
bizi

Vulnerability
 

Hi,
I think that being vulnerable has to be with trusting another enough to accept commitment, . . opening your heart . .
Also about being comfortable about accepting help from others. Here are some things that I found.
Mari



The Power of Vulnerability (in the work place)

http://organicleadership.wordpress.c...vulnerability/



Vulnerability.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-s..._b_112448.html

Enhancing Vulnerability To Master Perfectionism

http://www.streetdirectory.com/trave...ectionism.html

Some suggestions:


I'm not actually advocating these actions because I don't know about this stuff.
In the spirit of sharing, I'm showing you what I found.
Maybe it helps a little.

thank you for posting this Mari,
I appreciate you coming up with interesting and helpful links posts.
bizi
Enhancing Vulnerability To Master Perfectionism

I tried to go to this site the link is not right.
Do you still have that link by chance?

Hi,
I made a change and I think I fixed the link.

M

Vulnerability and Love

One of the most moving blogs I've been privileged to read is "Seedlings & Sprouts" by Julie Leung, wife of my MIT classmate Ted. I was particularly moved by her recent post "When love and sex divorced." [Read More] for some excerpts.

Quote:

I read these links. One thing popped out to me and that is that I think, generally speaking, that this word vulnerable has different meanings for most men than women.

For instance, I've had great relationships with guys I liked and admired - but we didn't bare all to each other, nor did it matter.

Conversely my wife knows everything there is to know about me. This idea of opening up or being vulnerable has always been extremely important to the women in my life.

The word scares me. Vulnerable. It just makes me feel scared.

On the other hand, having the deeply close relationship I have with her has required me to let go and allow myself to be in a position where I could be terribly hurt, perhaps beyond repair, if anything were to happen to our relationship. Vulnerable.

To me the difference between this and codependence is that neither of us are making the other miserable. No abuse. While we are very much dependent on each other we also make a bigger sum than the two of us alone.

None of my other relationships (work, etc...) have much to do with being vulnerable. My boss and I have a good relationship, but it isn't one where we share personal details with each other.

I know in the past I couldn't "surrender" myself into a situation where I felt vulnerable. I've found with age I'm able to do it more often. Its about being ok with releasing my own control. It can be very hard to do.

Being vulnerable is being able to show the other person "here I am... I'm revealing all of myself to you... Its ok and I hope you'll do the same..."

I think that I will think about being vulnerable for along time...
bizi

I guess I just tried to express my understanding of the term... I hope I didn't make anyone feel worse...

Of course not Tritone,
I appreciate your responces and you are very thoughtful.
How do you love someone be vulnerable to them and not become codependant?
bizi

I really loved this girl once. My inner life and my behavior were extremely unstable at that time. She was physically stunning, charming, bright - but only on good days. On bad days she was horribly alcoholic. She went on drug binges. She'd prostitute herself if she had to. She was the most severe type of bipolar person I've ever had any knowledge of. In addition she had massive other personality issues.

She came in and out of my life as she wished for about two years. I went through unbelievable pain, yet I stayed with her.

During that same period of time there was another woman who had severe issues with depression and a pathological distrust of people. The relationship caused incredible strain on me and on my relationship with my kids - but I stayed.

In both cases I was sure I was deeply in love and nobody would ever want me the same way again. So I hung on for dear life - despite the fact that it was killing me inside and I surely would have been better off without them. (although I think having cared for those people taught me volumes about myself).

I don't think loving someone (in the way we are using the word) and being vulnerable can not exist apart from each other. I love the people I work with everyday, but I don't love them like I love my wife or my kids. If one of my work friends decides to move to Siberia next week we will have a party. I'll miss that person, but life goes on and soon it will almost seem like they were never there. If my wife decided to leave me and move to Siberia I don't know how I'd carry on alone.

I am dependent on my wife. We support each other. Its not like the other relationships that had brief, fleeting moments of extreme excitement followed by misery.

Recreational drugs can make you feel incredible... but for every moment of bliss, there are a thousand moments of suffering. That to me is the difference between codependency and a trusting, caring love relationship.

I think that I have armor on, protecting myself for some reason.
The biggest reason I am in therapy now is that I don't have any passion in my life right now. I want to feel passionate about life again....
bizi
thanks for your input....:hug:

I'm guessing that one can become vulnerable by fully trusting in oneself, the moment, the goodness of other people . ..
....Just a guess . . . not an expert.

M.

I was in therapy too for the same reason. My husband does not talk or share very much although I know he loves me it is very hard to be alone with someone. It is something I've had to accept or divorce him. Although I'm not in love with him anymore, I love him and he is very good to me. Does that make sense?

There was a metaphore I was trying to get at the other day, talking about improvising music. Having taught for years and been an accomplished improvisor I've heard many people say they can't do it, they took fruitless lessons, they have a tin ear, etc...

I always felt like one of the things you need to be able to do to play freely, to improvise, is be able to let go. Forget about mistakes. Allow yourself to be vulnerable.

I've seen many students who were just so scared of surrendering control they clung tightly, or tried to force control over it and just couldn't do it. I've heard people with *little* musical sensibility improvise - they sounded weird or maybe their note choices were pretty out there - but they did not sound like they were trying to impose a forced sense of control.

Turning the tables on myself - I hate dancing. I don't actually hate it. I do it when I'm alone. I used to do it drunk. But it is the most terrifying thing for me to go out on a dance floor and dance with my wife. The only reason I can come up with is that I'm too scared to just let go and have fun. I won't surrender.

hi doxie,
yes that makes sense....and I am sorry for you.
I feel like I am in the middle of a mid life crisis, an identity crisis if you will.
I have also been having a bit of mania and have increased my medications.
I should be in bed ....have not taken my meds yet....:rolleyes:
~sigh
listening to cats hiss at each other...think it is going to be an interesting night.
bizi

yes tritone, surrendering control...this is a huge issue with vulnerablity.
This is why I am in therapy.
bizi

Hi bizi,
I have felt that too recently. Not knowing where I fit and how I belong. I've had sleeping problems for a couple of weeks. Started new meds. No pain, but no sleep. Not the greatest trade off. I'm learning to let go more and give more-so much of my disease takes. Even though my husband can't be open, doesn't mean that I need to stop-even if it means being open and vulnerable to myself.
No more dog's growling at each other. My doxie does snore though. Hope it's not going to be another long night....

Doxie

Yes,
And this sounds like how I have heard art / drawing described too. I guess performance needs some degree of vulnerability.

Other aspects of our day need vulnerability too -- like even some personal transactions at work.


Mari

I started reading feel the fear and do it anyway....book.
I really like it.
Discovered that I have a lot of fears!
bizi

at the support group meeting there was a man who told his story of how he was miserable in a state job, watching others sit around and do nothing while he worked his tail off and they ridiculed him and he was a victim...it all sounded awful!
HOw could he jsut take it like that, verbal abuse he was a mess! He had been putting up with this for 19 years, he had to make it another 3 to retire.
I read him part of the fear book about being a victim....and crossed talked and was embarressed for it...but anyway thought I would start a new thread.
bizi

I am not sure if I finished the thread when the box popped up.

But here goes my thoughts.

I love groups. Mainly because I need to talk through my thoughts, then listen to others thoughts too.

I also would have wanted to reach out and hug the girl. Its just my nature, and its lots of peoples. I now that recently I've been working very hard to get my image in public
up and make myself more professional.

But I wont lose the person that loves to be me.

Donna

WEll my new therapist told me that " I need to love myself"...
~sigh
bizi

That's a hard thing to do. I still have to work on it. I like myself better now. I'm proud of how you read from the book and talked with him. I don't think you should feel embarrassed.

Hugs, Doxie

PS: I probably would have felt a little embarrassed cause I'm not usually outgoing in groups.

Thanks doxie,
The reason I got embarressed was I knew what I was doing was wrong, I felt compelled to do it and did it anyway, apoligized before and after to the group for "cross talking"...I need to learn to not try to fix him, if he has been a victim at his life his whole life how on earth do I think that I can run in a be a hero for him. It is nuts! He needs to figure out how to fix his life. It is not my job but why do I act like it is??????
This is 2 weeks in a row that I felt compelled to act and was unable to show restraint......
I hope they let me stay in the group.....:o
~sigh
bizi

please do not think that you did anything "wrong"
 

Bizi,
It's not wrong.
It was only wrong in that particular group setting.
It is not wrong to do that.

Please do not feel bad.
You are going to get accustomed to how the group works and make adjustments eventually.

You might even decide that you don't like the group and want to look for something else.

That is ok.

Mari