Need your help
 

Okay, here's where I NEED YOUR EXPERTISE.

I have a son who I haven't seen in 7 years. He is a compulsive gambler (been diagnosed with Aspergers). He graduated college on a full scholarship, moved out at 20, maxed out his credit cards, and began a journey visiting various casinos from Arizona to California.

He settled in California and applied for SSI which he got. One psychiatrist said "you have aspergers". All the other specialists diagnosed him with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

To me and Alan, it really doesn't matter because he is toxic, selfish and does what he wants. For the first 2 years in California he was in and out of psych hospitals (just to get a bed (he admitted this). he would cry "suicide" and they would pick him up, feed and house him and he would say to me "Mom, they will walk over your dead body but cry suicide and by law they have to pick you up and take care of you". I checked, he was correct.

To say this gambling, and narcissistic behavior nearly destroyed us is putting in mildly. But we persevered, (Alan and I), grew closer, and formed a bond. It was us and only us.

I would maybe hear from my son 4 times a year. He used to ask for money. I went to gamanon meetins (and learned a great deal). I never sent him any money except on his birthday once a year and that was $25.00.

He got on SSI, they housed him in various board and cares, and various places and he gambled the rent (two times) and both times they took his payee status away. He won the right to be his own payee and he controlled his own money. He lost two apartments by the way. He would say things like: "gambling gives me hope", etc. etc. I'm depressed".

He has been on various meds (not when he lived at home).This all happened after he moved away.

For the past 4 or so years he has lived in a virtual reality world known as Second Life. This virtual reality game is extremely addictive and many marriages, relationships, etc, have been lost due to this addictive environment.

I have joined in forums where families discussed their family members being addicted to Second Life.

So my son has TWO things going on (that I know of), Second Life and the gambling. I really haven't had a conversation with him in a LONG time because I refuse to be a co-dependant and listen to the scams he pulls.

We thought he had settled in years ago, but it seems there has been a new development. Oh, by the way, he has cable tv, dsl lines, computer, dvd players, 3 meals a day (he does not cook but uses a microwave).

I've been down this road so many times I cannot tell you. I distanced myself about 2 years ago when the Second Life thing was consuming him 24 hours a day. I had spoken to his Social Workers, and they completely understood.

They told me years ago, "he doesn't do drugs, that's not his thing, his thing is gambling".

He only cares about himself (that much is painfully obvious).

So, after not hearing from him (his duty phone call I would refer to it), it's been about 5 months, the phone just ran, and there was a 702 area code.

It was him. I said "what are you doing in a 702 area code, you live in California."?

And he said "I'm in a Las Vegas Hospital". I said "you're what???"

And he said "I'm on suicide watch". You see, this is how he lived for 2 years after he left us. He would get on and off buses and call 911 and he would be picked up, fed, housed, etc. He would say "All I need is to get on SSI, then I'll be set". Guess he's not set?

So on to our conversation. I said "Oh, you're doing the sucide thing again?"

And he said "well, it's a lot more complicated now, I can't get home".

I said "why not? and why are you in Las Vegas?"

He said: 'I won money in Second Life, and thought I could win big in Vegas".

I said "But you've been doing this for YEARS, you haven't learned yet, THAT YOU CAN'T WIN??"

He sighed and said: "Listen, it's complicated, the reason I gamble is that it gives me hope". I said "but you're extremely intelligent, and you found out a long time ago that it doesn't work that way, you've lost it all before, and you had every chance to go for help, but you never did".

He said "Listen, I have no way to get back home (from Las Vegas to California), he takes the Greyhound.

I said "what do you want?" (I thought from the way he made it sound that he wanted $20 for the bus ride home).

He said "Well, with the bus ticket and some groceries (remember he doesn't need to cook because they supply him with 3 meals a day where he lives). He said "About $200 would do it" I said "oh, how sad, your dad and I just came home from the food pantry and we get our food there"

I then said "why don't you do what you did before, call the Kern Linkage Program and they'll pay for your bus ticket home (they do this).

He said "How about $150". I said "sorry, we have no money".

he said "oh, okay, I'll call you when I figure out what to do".

Okay people. I used to feel quite nothing when I thought of him (I've learned to do this).

I don't want my feelings waking up. He scares me. This is not a warm fuzzy mommy feeling that I now have. I lost that A LONG TIME AGO.

He's an addict. He knows it (but he makes excuses because of the aspergers ) which frankly, I do not believe he has. He's a con man and a manipulator.

He did this suicide bit YEARS AGO, and it got him whatever he wanted.

He's brilliant but he has never had a job in his life. He always said (after he moved away). I knew I would never work, besides, you gave birth to me, so you owe me". You have to try and picture my response to this.

We never use bad language, we never raise our voices. We try and be diplomatic but honestly, he's toxic and I don't want Alan to go through any more. He has enough health issues.

We've actually been quite happy for the past few years and I'd like to continue.

So I need your good wisdom.

Do I keep the phone on voice mail and do what I've been doing for years.

I know what I want to do. I don't know what I should do.

You see, I've done the research. Many young men who cry suicide actually die from fake attempts (because they think people will take care of them, send them money, WHATEVER!!!

I am prepared for this. The first time he did this 7 years ago, I remember being on the phone with the sucide hot line for 5 nights in a row till 3 a.m. and they sent a (I think it's called a PACT team). to his apartment, to find him perfectly fine and laughing. He said "mom, I didn't mean it".

To say that I don't want him in our lives is putting it mildly.

I'd appreciate any advice you would care to give.

And I hope you don't judge me.

Melody

P.S. If anyone wants to PM me, that's fine

Wow, 21 people have read this post and no one has commented.

That's absolutely amazing. I expected to get some "he's your son, you owe it to him to keep trying", or "you know what you need to do, so keep doing it".

But I got nothing.

My goodness!!

Melody

Melody...21 views has nothing to do with "people". Search engines send out bots and spiders, they view posts and gather the info so it can be found in searches. Like Google and Yahoo. Also if a non member reads, they can't reply.

I wish I had advice. I'm a firm beleiver in tough love and not having toxic people in my life. It's tough, can be seen as being cold or mean. I just don't want those type of people around me or my family...even if they are blood.

I wouldn't give a penny. My brother was enabled by my parents. I beleive it contributed to his death.

I think your gut and Mother Heart are telling you what you need to hear.

:hug:

I wish I could help too. I think only a person who has had experience with things like this, can share their experience and the wisdom they acquired.

When people don't have experience with this, offering help is just very difficult and iffy.

Is there a Gambler's Anon group near you? Have you tried talking to other gamblers who have been there done that?

I am so sorry you have to go thru this. It sounds agonizing.

Hi All!!!

Thanks SO much for having my back.

Let me be honest. When a parent goes through this FOR 7 YEARS, and yes, I've done the gammanon thing. When he first left home, began the getting on buses and getting off buses so he could be housed, and maxed out all his credit cards and went to casinos, etc. etc. etc AD NAUSEUM!!!, Alan and I went to our first Gammanon meeting.

You see, YEARS AGO, we did the Tough Love meetings (so we had already learned not to enable). We took him to the Scared Straight program at Rahway prison (just imagine being surrounded by convicted killers inside this cage thing, with all these juvenile delinquents being put on the stage so these convicted killers (who turned out to be very sweet indeed), well, they have the kids up on the stage, and the convicted killers start screaming at them telling them that THEY ARE GOING TO WIND UP IN THAT PRISON UNLESS THEY STRAIGHTEN OUT".

That's when you see the kids start crying because they walked in so high and mighty and walked out all deflated.

And while this is going on, imagine prison gards (outside of the cage), walking around with what looked like AK 47 rifles (I wouldn't know a prison rifle from a machine gun). Yes, we did ALL OF THESE THINGS.

And we did the counseling. Oh, the counseling. We did it ALL!!!

And he changed. At the age of 16 through 20, there were no more incidents. He graduated high school, and went to college on a full scholarship. He designed graphics and websites and he told us he was going to game design school in Arizona.

That never happened. But when you have one child and he is so promising, and you never saw him gamble, then how does one know what that child will end up doing.

Certainly not getting on and off buses, and calling 911 so they could HOUSE HIM FOR THE NIGHT.

He once told me that he was picked up by firemen once (this was in Arizona), and the guy told him "you want to be taken care of? go to California, they'll house you". So he did.

This has been a parent's nightmare. The gambling, (I had no idea what the heck this meant because the only gambling I ever did was the occasional poker game on Christmas with my family (years ago).

Whether this is genetic, or has to do with extrernal environmental triggers, or whatever it is that makes him live in a virtual reality world such as Second Life, make money in that world, and sell the virtual money on other websites (people actually pay REAL money, to buy FAKE money (called Linden dollars), so they can go into Second Life and live out fantasies....

Well, I can't pretend to understand this, but it is what it is.

But when a 27 year old person who has never worked, and knows that his dad is ill, and has NEVER called him and asked about him, (and believe me, I've watched many episodes of INTERVENTION, and I've watched EVERY episode of The Cleaner with Benjamin Bratt....I've learned how the brain works ,,,,we have to face up to our addictions and either let them destroy us (without caring who else it destroys), or we get help.

I have tried for YEARS to get him the help he so desperately needs, but does not want.

When I posted my problem on this board, I needed to have my feelings and actions validated. There is no one I can tell this to. My family is so uncomfortable with what he did, they haven't asked about him in 6 years. TRUE!!! People who can't deal with stuff, well they DON'T.

So I have learned to deal with it myself and take care of ME, and take care of Alan.

Never in all my life did I ever think that the person I gave birth to 27 years ago, would turn out like this. With no regard for anything but the way gambling makes him feel.

Oh, Alan made a very good point last night. I was talking to him and saying "I wonder how he is going to get the money to go back to California from Las Vegas"

I even said to Alan "I was thinking of sending him the $25 bus fare (I know, BAD STUPID THING), but Alan set me straight and said "you are sending him NOTHING". I said 'thanks for bringing me back to the present".

Then we figured it out.

My son lives in California in a voucher program, and gets housing, food, and is his own payee. He has had to fight to be his own payee (2 times), due to his gambling problem.

If he calls the social worker in California for money, they will revoke his payee status and appoint a company to be his payee.

He doesn't want ANYONE else controlling him.

So he called me up asking for $200 thinking "well, she'll give me $200. I'll go back to the Casino, I'll WIN BIG" and all will be fine.

He was wrong.

Alan just asked me "I wonder how he will get home". I said "he's gone 27 years without ever working a day in his life, and he has an apartment, a computer, a tv, dvd player, dsl line, etc." DON'T WORRY ABOUT HIM, HE'S CREATIVE.

I am thinking that he will probably go knocking on church rectories telling the people that he was mugged and needs to get home. That might work.

Or, if he's done that and there's no one to give him "going home money", that the only thing he CAN do is go to his nearest GA meeting, lie to them, and promise he'll go to GA when he gets back home, thinking that they will give him the money to get the bus home.

I don't know if they would fall for that.

My son is extremely creative, manipulative and controlling.

Too bad he didn't use these gifts to make himself a better person.

Alan is heart broken over this.

Me??? I shall continue to grow my sprouts, eat my veggies, and go for a walk.

I can't let my son or anything negative or toxic BRING ME BACK TO THAT PLACE WHERE I WAS YEARS AGO, when he began this destructive behavior.

The worst was when he was crying suicide (and the first time he did that), Alan and I re-arranged the living room furniture because we thought we would be having people coming over the next day to sit with us while we mourned.

Just imagine going through that.

No, I did this 7 years ago. I'm not moving any more furniture.

I give people (who deal with this and can't say no), well, I give them credit. They do this to be able to live with themselves.

I've LEARNED how to live with myself.

Took 7 years.

Thank you very much for listening and letting me vent.

It was needed.

Melody

I'm sorry to hear you are going through this. Living with a Personality Disorder of any kind is tough, NP's being the toughest!

Here are some well recommended books that I've heard about through another message board, devoted to a specific pd.

The Wizard of OZ and other Narcissists" by Eleanor Payson
Why is it always about you?" by Hotchkiss
Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" by McBride

And 'Fatal Flaws' by Yudofsky

I, personally, have yet to tackle in depth the PD of Narcissism, but was planning a book or two for my summer reads.

I feel these books should be empowering, shine some light on what makes an NP tick, and learn some new communication techniques, that can be used in all manners of relationships.

And 'Look me in the eyes' by Robinson is written by a gentleman with Aspergers, and I've heard decent reviews, as it sheds light into this disorder. From what I understand about Aspergers', if not caught early in life, it can result in a personality disorder of some shape or form. Not catching early was not uncommon, even two decades ago. It's tough to diagnos, even with early intervention....so, I'm not surprised to hear that your son has these two disorders co-morbid with one another.

As far as the suicide threats, I know this is tough. Have you researched borderline personality disorder? There is a new book out there that speaks in laymans terms and helps communications...."The essential family guide to understanding borderline personality disorder"-Kreger. Though your son wasn't dx'd with that, you can learn tips and techniques for dealing with the suicide threats.

One being to set your own personal boundaries. If you threaten around me, I will not hesistate to call the authorities, and follow through. It's not up to you to rescue them from themselves.....

Tough love is tough, and I feel for 'ya! Hang in there! :hug:

Hi. And thank you for replying. I have researched every personality disorder on this planet. I did not read, however, that when aspergers is not caught early, that it morphs into a personality disorder. I believe this is what has happened.

We had him in counseling most of his life because of his disruptive behavior in school when he was 6 or so. One therapist told us "he needs to feel loved, so go out and buy him all new clothes". We did. Nothing changed.

Another therapist said "when he has meltdowns, he must know that you will not tolerate it, so you must discipline him with a hairbrush (and never use your hands because hands should only show love).

Well, for some unknown reason, this worked. His dad gave him the spanking of his life when he was 8. I think he had one more spanking after that and he NEVER HAD ANOTHER MELTDOWN TILL HE WAS 15.

I don't believe in corporal punishment, but then again, I never thought I would have a kid that I had to bring to Rahway prison and do the Tough Love meetings with. (But this did indeed happen).

I believe in accountability. He has never been accountable for anything he has done after he moved away home. They have given him EVERYTHING.

He never had to work for a thing. He doesn't believe he has to. He has such self indulgent theories, I will never understand his way of thinking.

As far as the suicide thing, he had done this for years. It's how he gets his way. He knows that they will pick him up and take care of him, and they always have. I think this is appalling and he knows this.

He needs intensive therapy but they can't force him.

After I made my initial post on this board, two days later, a social worker from the hospital in Vegas telephoned me. She introduced herself and I said:

"Hold on please, I know exactly what you are going to say, I have been down this road MANY TIMES". I was polite and I informed her.

She knew I wasn't sending him any money.

Yesterday he emailed me saying "Just wanted you to know that I am home and that a friend in Second Life is wiring me $40 to cover me for the month, and thank god that I have friends in Second Life".

I asked him "What did you learn from losing everything in Vegas" and he replied; "I learned never to go back unless I'm rich because Vegas will eat me alive".

Then I, of course, counseled him about going for therapy, and going to GA (knowing it would fall on deaf ears).

He wrote me back "If I could not gamble, I would kill myself" I hate life, blah blah blah blah.

It's the same old story. It's like he copied and pasted his thoughts from 7 years ago. He has not grown (mentally) in any way, shape or form.

It's like he's stuck in immaturity land and he won't go anywhere.

I cannot take any more of his behavior.

I won't do this to myself, nor will I let him do it to my husband.

We deserve to be happy.

If he wants to lead a miserable life, (and believe me, there have been options for him), but he refuses any of it.

There is really nothing we can do.

I do, however, appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts.

Thanks so much.

Melody

P.S. His diagnoses when he was a kid were ADD, ADHD, OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANCE DISORDER, you name it, he had it. Everything EXCEPT Aspergers.

Nothing more to be said.

Mel

:hug: Sounds like you've been through the ringer with your son. I'm sorry that he's been manipulative of you, your husband and your emotions. It's tough. It also sounds like he didn't learn his lesson about Vegas----after all a recovered gambling addict wouldn't tell you that they need to be rich to not lose their shirt?

What is Second Life all about anyhow? Sounds like enabling of poor choices and decisions, no?

As far as all the dx's except the aspy one, very, very typical. You mention GA, is that the state where he went through the educational system? I find it amazing how very different all 50 States can be when it comes to learning disabilities, etc. With the focus on something being 'wrong' with a childs personality just seems/feels so very wrong to me. At least with aspy/autism the focus can state, hey, there is something wrong neurologically, then modify behavior from there....less pressure on child's self-esteem/worth, if that makes sense....

(I know, I digress....my middle son has a developmental delay, at 3yr that's as far as a dx goes...I know what I believe him to have, but am letting time and patience play a hand at this stage...doing my research about what was troubling led me to find that clip about aspergers and personality disorders....when I find that again, I'll pm you the link if interested?)

I'm glad to see you hanging in there :hug:

Hey Mel! I was looking over New Posts and saw your thread. Every sentence you wrote, lured me to read on. Do I know anything about addictions or gambling? No, not alot, but I can say that I think the way you have opened your raw emotions here is very brave and I think, good therapy for you.

As parents' we are always looking for that sign that our decisions about our children are the ''right'' ones. Your son is not a child, as parents' they are always our kids. In your situation, I couldn't begin to give you advice, but it seems you have tried everything imaginable to help your DS, yet he refuses your help. Why? B/C he doesn't want help; he just wants to feed his addiction. I almost felt your pain as I read on. Your'e hurting b/c he's your son and you know that there is a better life for him out there; yet he rejects it. What can you do? I don't think there's anything more you CAN do.

People who choose to be self destructive, rejecting help and living the merry go round lifestyle that he is living, probably won't change. I just feel so bad for you and Alan. As I get older, I have the mindset that for every action~ there is a reaction. I used to give a few dollars to a homeless guy in another town, who would stand by an intersection holding a sign declaring he was a homeless Vet. I later found out that he used all the money donated to him for alcohol and cigarettes, plus he had a home AND wasn't even a Vet!!!

I was duped and have since learned to keep my car window rolled up.

You have to keep your car window rolled up, Mel.

I thank you for sharing your story, as the pain you and Alan have gone through is evident. But, if one parent, child, friend or addictive person sees this thread and is helped by it, then you are to be applauded.


I will keep you and Alan in my prayers.....

Mel, big huge :hug: to you for being the strong mother you need to be. I wish my MIL could be as strong as you. My BIL is a drunk, manipulative abuser and hasn't held a job in years. He takes in women to support him and bail him out. He uses his mother to no end but she's an enabler and doesn't see her fault. I have told her so many times that we will NOT support him when she dies. She thinks he'll be fine. He compares himself to Jim in disabilities as if he's jealous.

Anyway, enough about that. My advice and take it or leave it is keep doing what your doing. My heart aches for you because I can feel your pain in all this. You have let go but your heart hasn't or you wouldn't be here posting. :hug:

He's an adult and you have to let him fall. I personally think all these organizations are enabling him as well. If he keeps getting bailed out he wont hit rock bottom.

:hug:

DM:

Thanks very much for what you wrote. I've been KEEPING MY WINDOWS ROLLED UP FOR OVER 7 YEARS.

And the suicide threat thing? It's his way of manipulating others to get what he wants. Since he knows that if you call up 911, that by law, they have to pick you up, bring you someplace, feed you, take care of you, etc. etc., well, he's learned that he doesn't have to GROW UP, BE ACCOUNTABLE, or whatever words I'm trying to find to express his thinking mind-set.

He told me this 7 years ago, when he started the getting on buses and getting off of buses and calling 911. The only time it backfired was when he landed in San Francisco. You see, every other time he got off of a bus (with his suitcase), he would call 911, and some paramedic or firemen would show up, put their arms over him, bring him to a crisis center, or a psych ward and he would get a place for the night (or sometimes up to 2 weeks), he would then phone me (he used phone cards at the time). I would then get a phone call from each social worker in EACH psych ward that he ended up in.

But when he did this in San Francisco, the cops showed up in a patrol car and handcuffed him. They brought him to the ER and when they saw he was no danger to himself, they un cuffed him. He phoned me and said "wow, I never knew they arrest you when you call 911". I said "haven't you learned ANYTHING BY NOW"??

I got so tired of all the phone calls that I typed up his whole background (from when he was a kid), and every time a new social worker from a new hospital would phone me I would interrupt them and say "Hold on, give me your fax number, I'm going to fax you all the info".

I must have done this 20 or more times. He did this from Arizona through California.

He finally settled in Bakersfield CA.

Oh, a poster on this forum asked me if GA was where he got his education. GA stands for GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS. This is where I believe he should be attending meetings.

He grew up in Brooklyn NY, and was put in Special Ed classes from first grade through 3rd grade, whereupon he informed us "Mom, I don't want to be in Special Ed any more, I want to be in regular classes". I then said "with your compulsive behavior, do you think you can manage being mainstreamed?" (Just imagine having this conversation with a kid in the 3rd grade, because I forget his age when we had this conversation.

He told me "don't worry, I know exactly what I'm doing".

HE DID!!! the Special Ed department started mainstreaming him in regular classes. He did just fine. He went into full regular classrooms in the 4th grade.

How did he do in the 4th Grade? Never got less than 100 on anything and had no tantrums. His teacher told me "I never think he's paying attention because he looks out of the window all the time, but then the test results come in and he gets 100%".

Then the Citywide Math tests were given. He scored in the 98 percentile OF ALL NEW YORK. So we know he's smart. He just has no soul. He sold it by the way on EBAY 7 years ago for $15.00. He drafted a document saying "This document contains the soul of ....." Some idiot bought it.

I have no way of knowing if he was gambling before the age of 20 because he was always on his computer in his room. But then, there could have been THE INTERNET GAMBLING, RIGHT?

What parents do not know is THAT THEIR KIDS ARE DOING STUFF AND THE PARENT'S HAVE NO CLUE. No clue at all.

My friend has a 30 year old beautiful daughter who parties all the time. She lives with men, then breaks up and finds another one. She drinks. What did the mother say? "oh, I know my daughter likes to drink now and then, but I know she doesn't do drugs". OH REALLY? Then what did I find when I walked into a backyard party one summer evening, (quite unexpectedly) and the aroma of Pot was everywhere and I said "oh my god, your grandma is right behind me, put that stuff out" And they were waving all the smoke around.

No one had a clue. I did not say anything because these people were 30 years old and who would believe me anyway?

And one night, I was over at a friend's house and the grandma was there, and they had asked me about my son, so I told them the latest developments. the grandma said "but he's your son, you don't send him money?" and I said "now why on earth would I send a gambler money"???

And the response? She walked over to me, patted me on the arm and said "Because he's your son".

I then countered with "If a 2 year old is walking with his parents and wants to jump off of a building, do you let them?" and she said "of course not" and I said "how come?" and she said "Well, it would hurt him, and we have to protect them".

I then said "so that same two year old is walking with you 5 times a week and every time you take him out he wants to go on the horsey ride and it costs you one dollar. And you do this 5 times a week. Then you are out of money, and you say "no" to the two year old. What do you think the 2 year old is going to do?"

She said "oh, he'll have a fit, a temper tantrum, etc." I said "now why is he doing that". And she got a lightbulb moment and said "oh, because he got used to going on the horsey ride so many times that week".

I said 'BINGO"

Now translate that to a grown up person being enabled by their parents, given free room and lodging and the parents say "but he's my son, we owe him".

She shook her head sadly and said "I could never be so strong, I would have given him all the money he wanted".

I said "thank god, he's not your son".

I'm telling you, I learn new stuff all the time just from speaking to people.

People are afraid of losing their grown children's love, and the kids know this, and they prey upon it.

Not right.

Okay, I'll get off of my soap box.

But it was really good to share all of this information with you. If this even helps one parent to put on some boundaries and say "no", once in a while, and when the kid looks at them incredulously and says" "what do you mean, NO, you can't say NO to me, I'm your child".

The parent should say "That's exactly why I'm saying NO"

Melody

You know, Mel, I bet you are booked out!

But this one is really good. And it even uses some humor to get its points across.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NEo...um=4&ct=result

Instead of approaching the problems draining people have academically, this book explains how these emotional vampires get YOU and how YOU can minimize the damage.
Antisocial
Narcissistic
Histrionic
Paranoid
Compulsive

Are the ones explained, with real life examples. It doesn't go into WHY, but instead has HOW to deal.
Perhaps your library will have this? Or used on Amazon?

It is a very readable book. You will find people you know in it, and I can say I have read it 3 times now, when I am confronted with problematic people in my life.

One basic fact that is very important that I learned in it, is that people who are extreme, who USE manipulative traits to get what they want, are really addicts. They are addicted to the rush they get from their own behaviors of the neurotransmitters that they are low on. Gamblers for example are going for dopamine primarily. But others may be auto releasing norepi, or oxytocin...etc. Therapy as we know it, talk therapy may fail with these people, since talk is cheap and does nothing for them. It is their particular "rush" they are after.

I really recommend this book to anyone who has extreme people they have to deal with. I know I recommend books alot and people's eyes may glaze over, but this one is exceptional!

Ah my dear Mrs. D. Thinking about me as usual.

You're a doll!!

I shall look into this book.

I also, never knew about the "rush" you were talking about.

But, ON A MORE POSITIVE FUN NOTE, I was contacted (by Facebook of all places, which I DO NOT FREQUENT), but where I have my profile, well, friends from almost 40 years ago found me.

I got several emails from gals I used to ride the Express bus to work with YEARS AGO.

Imagine my getting an email form Linda and it says "hi Melody, this is Linda, remember me?? " and I'm saying to myself "who the heck is Linda, I KNOW A LINDA???"

Well, upon further reading, the BINGO went off and it was one of the crew that I used to hang with when I was around 24 to age 32.

We did EVERYTHING together, from Discos, to late suppers, to them coming over to my apartment (way before I married, and I was the ONLY GAL WHO HAD AN APARTMENT, THE REST LIVED WITH THEIR PARENTS...

And I would cook my famous chicken dinners. Oh, the memories.

We are now corresponding, and they saw my youtube videos, and they said "wow, look at you".

I'm now trying to coax them to share photos of themselves.

This is so much fun.

It's like a window to the past (the better past I mean).

I am looking forward now to phone calls from them, and maybe videos.

And get this. some of them have relatives with Aspergers, and they ALL have heard of Aspergers.

Will wonders never cease??

lol

Melody

Mrs. D.

I went to the link, and read the whole preview. I had NEVER heard of this terminology before. EMOTIONAL VAMPIRES.

That is indeed MY SON!!

There are various editions up on Ebay. One is an older version for under $5.00 with $3.00 shipping and the others are around $12 or so.

Are these the same book?

I mean, they have different covers.

Let me know.

I am definitely going to buy this book.

but you know what scares me? This guy Bernstein describes EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET. No one is normal any more.

We all are SOME KIND OF VAMPIRE, now aren't we?

lol

Melody

We all have mixtures of traits.

When that mix becomes very skewed and one sided, then
that person falls into the personality disorder category.
When THAT becomes severe, they become "emotional vampires".
The psychologist who wrote that book, is a motivational speaker
who goes to businesses and addresses interviewing new employees or fixing conflicts that arise in the business world.
These extreme types can drain resources and cause terrible upheaval.

There is another book I got from the library, called Snakes in Suits. That one addresses mostly Narcissistic psychopathic types. One of the authors of this book is a Canadian psychologist who has specialized in psychopathy for 20 yrs. He has some really interesting books!
I have seen this dynamic unfortunately in action! I decided to retire in fact early because the place I worked at could not deal with this problem...it was running amok!

http://www.communities.hp.com/online...PPost4330.aspx

Mrs. D.

I clicked on the link and read the description of "Snakes in Suits"

Doesn't apply to my son.

He's a vampire.

God, can you imagine me 20 years or so ago, and some future person comes back in time and says: "Want to know how your son will turn out in 20 years?? He's going to be an emotional vampire".

Never would have thought such a thing.

But, AND THIS IS VERY INTERESTING. I've just learned info today from various sources and people I know. They have adult kids.

All have problems, none work, and the parents bought them all cars and apartments. I said to one of the people: "And she bought her son a car, WHY?????" and the person shrugged and said "Because he was breaking her chops, and she couldn't take it any more"

I just sat back and listened in amazement.

People enable because they can't take their adult kids breaking their chops any more???

Good Lord. I think I'm on another planet.

Melody

I'm getting to this thread a bit late Mel, but I will tell you my opinion. We to have have a very toxic relative in our lives. This person takes and takes and gives nothing back to anyone. I often wonder why he was even put on this earth as he only cons,manipulates,lies,begs,borrows, and sucks up oxygen. My husband calls him the "oxygen thief":D

He thinks just because you have some money you should give him half of what you have. He refuses to work. We call them "bludgers", down here. A bludger is someone who contributes absolutely nothing and only works up scams to con people to further his own survival.

Just thinking about all his bull#*#* makes my blood boil.

You have a right to be angry,disappointed and indifferent. You probably reached your threshold for bull along time ago. You don't have to put up with his behaviour in your home and nobody can blame you for keeping him at a distance, and nobody can judge you until they have walked in your shoes.

My son is only 10 years old so it's tough for me to imagine what I would do if I were you. I do know that I keep this toxic relative of ours as far away as possible because I am unable to handle/process his toxicity. It's overwhelming to all of us.

I don't know how people turn out like this, I honestly don't. It's like he doesn't have a conscience and that is soo scary!!

Good Luck Mel, I hope the book helps you some.

Aussie:)

Good post Mrs. D.,
It's late here so I will read article in morning.
But it reminded me of this stockbroker I know who is the most cut throat, ruthless,unconsciencable,deceitful person you can imagine. He cons the elderly out of their life savings for a living. I saw him today and I got chills down my spine when he looked at me. I think he may have even sold his soul.

Aussie

There is another sociopath book...

http://books.google.com/books?id=EJL...um=4&ct=result
This one was the first book of its type that I bought a few years ago.

It discusses the "lazy" sociopath. And this type chooses to mooch off others. Has no conscience, etc. There are many types of psychopath/sociopath... aggressive, lazy, manipulative, etc.
All have different goals, but basically no conscience.
Snakes in Suits only goes into what happens in the business arena. There are many many sociopaths/psychopaths who do NOT end up in jail, or are not murderers, but they are destructive in other ways.

This book even has a example of a woman who stole a psychologist's identity and posed as one and terrorized her "patients"! Based on a true story!

Different psychologists over the years have researched these toxic behaviors, so the terms used may overlap or vary. But reading about them is very interesting.

Dr. Hare's other book is called Without Conscience. It is paperback and affordable. (he is the coauthor of Snakes in Suits).
http://books.google.com/books?id=xfI...um=4&ct=result

I find this subject very interesting, esp after I had to fend one off in my real life! I also found them in my work environment..and the only solution there was for me to
escape/leave. Sociopaths/psychopaths understand that most people extend trust and acceptance easily, and are not self protective. That is how they get into your life and cause mayhem!

Okay, so let me put my question out there.

My son, who had been initially diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (believe me, he was evaluated by MANY people while he was doing the getting on and off buses and winding up in emergency rooms), from Arizona to California, UNTIL (and this was only one doc), he was a specialist in dealing with CHILDREN WITH ASPERGERS not adults.

He was evaluating my son, and that night, my son phoned me and said:

"Guess what, I have a new diagnoses, I have ASPERGERS". To say I've never heard of this is putting it mildly. I said "I thought you had Narcissistic Personality disorder" And he said:

"Well, the doctor said "I know exactly what's wrong with you, you have Aspergers"

I was able to phone that particular doctor. (And this is a miracle unto itself because psychiatrists don't speak to parents of young adults over the age if 18), But my son signed a waiver or something to that effect.

I asked the doctor "does he gamble because he has Aspergers, or is just a gambler??"

I was told "The fact that he has aspergers disorder contributes to every single decision that he makes. He is immature, compuslive, impulsive blah blah".

I then said "But he went to college on a full scholarship and aced all his tests, so we know he's not stupid".

He said "People with aspergers have normal intelligence but can't read social clues, they are clumsy in social settings".

My son had friends as a child, and even went to a school dance at the age of 12, where he had the time of his life.

He was never A PLAYER, in the world of guys and gals, if you can understand this. He was a loner who stayed in his room, did his school work, and went on the computer (doing whatever he did on the computer) Who knew about online gambling 10 years ago, not me!!

So Alan and went to our first Aspergers Support group. No one there discussed any addictions. It was comprised of about 50 men and 3 women.

90% of the men were nothing like my son who appears perfectly normal, could have perfectly normal conversations, (well, before he left us that is).

These guys at this meeting in New York City, well, it was the most fascinating thing I have ever seen. Out of the 50, two were clearly autistic (not so much as Rainman), but they lived in group homes, they spoke in a higher pitched voice, (well, YOU KNEW SOMETHING WAS NOT RIGHT).

Some of the others were just very immature. There was a 50 year old who just wanted to learn how to clean his apartment. He had a job, he had money, but he didn't know how to clean 3 rooms.

The topic of the day at this support meeting was "how to meet woman, learn what they mean, and go on a date"

I'm sitting there in a room with men in their 50's who had never approached a woman. These men had jobs, these men WERE ALL DIAGNOSED WITH ASPERGERS, and these men had gone to MIT and other colleges, but had nervous breakdowns after college when they had to go into the real world.

NONE OF THEM CAME ACROSS LIKE MY SON

Oh, that's not true. One guy waltzed in, very arrogant, very very self assured announcing his name, (he was around 23) and said "okay, my name is (whatever his name was), and I have Aspergers and Tourettes, and now that we have that out of the way, let's get on with this meeting".

I just looked at him. The moderator told him to settle down.

Alan and just looked at each other. Because we were the NEW parents, the whole meeting basically involved around my son and we got all sort of feedback.

The moderator (who was absolutely wonderful, sociable, normal in every way possible), explained about Aspergers, etc.

But the most interesting fact was the guys who sat on their haunches. They were over 40, college grads, DID NOT WORK, were on SSI, were very sweet, but they sat on the chair, and squatted on their legs.

To say we thought this absurd is putting it mildly. But we did not know about Aspergers at the time. One guy stimmed all the time, with his finger tips. Frank used to do this nervous habit sometimes when he laughed, but I didn't know it was stimming.

The thing that confuses me is that the guy sitting in front of us was clearly autistic and the other guy who announced who he was was not clearly autistic, and they both had the same diagnosis.

This is what confuses me. Am I to believe that Aspergers (this is what I've been told), is a spectrum disorder and you can be like Rainman or you can be normal and blend in (just like the moderator of that meeting, who had had specific ABA therapy.

And I've been on forums where men with Aspergers come across as narcissistic, self indulgent, (the world revolves around me, and I don't owe anyone anything), THIS IS MORE LIKE MY SON'S WAY OF THINKING.

How the heck can one disorder present IN SO MANY VARIOUS WAYS.

Extremely confusing.

I can only respond to the behavior that is being processed at me. Whether or not the person has one diagnosis or another diagnosis, if that person is selfish, self indulgent, malignant, narcissistic, WHATEVER, it makes no difference to me what his diagnosis is, BECAUSE TOXIC IS TOXIC.

And one psychiatrist once told my son "what may eventually save you is your intelligence".

So we have an almost 28 year old man who lives in a virtual world, gambles on the internet, and when he makes money in SL, he goes to Vegas and loses everything, and who obviously does not consider anyone but himself.

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASPERGERS DISORDER????

I mean, depending on who I ask, I've been told "no, this doesn't sound anything like Aspergers, it sounds like he's a narcissist". and I've also been told "no, he has more than one diagnosis going on besides the Aspergrs".

I've also been told "Well, it sounds like he has Peter Pan Syndrome", meaning "I won't grow up".

Since I will never know what the heck his actual diagnosis is, I am left to make a determination.

Do I want contact with a self, self indulgent VAMPIRE, who literally makes me spasm, be constipated, and gives me a pain in my heart?

I don't.

I fell bad because I DON'T FEEL ANYTHING.

But it is what it is.

I've read the Vampire thing, the snakes in suits thing, the malignant self love thing.

I've met sociopaths who have no conscience, men who use women. (I once was involved with a man (this was when I was 28 years old).

I was madly in love (I was naive I gather because I believed him and why wouldn't I because there were no clues).

He stayed with me from Friday night till Monday Morning. Every single holiday, every single weekend. He met my family. They adored him. He was very sweet, and came off as a darling 24 year old guy.

He did not live near me so that's why we saw each other on the weekends.

I also met HIS family. I was invited to meet his mom, his grandmother, his sister and I went there for dinner.

Something was off in that family, he knew it, I knew it, so I never went back. But we had our relationship and we interacted with all MY friends and they loved him. And his friends came over for the weekend and I cooked and we had laughs.

What I'm trying to get across is that all this socializing did so IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS.

He worked during the week, I never questioned his not coming over during the week because I also worked.

He once showed up at my work place with a Rose for each of my co-workers. I thought it was strange that a man would do this for my co-workers but they ADORED THIS GESTURE.

We all went out to lunch and he walked out arm in arm with two of my female co-workers, one of whom said to me "you are SO lucky to have such a thoughtful boyfriend".

We even spoke of marriage. He met my family, etc.

Well, one day, he disapperared from my life. I tried calling but the number did not work, and I did not have a number for his family and they lived way away from me and I did not drive (he did).

I almost went out of my mind. We had not been fighting, we had not been ANYTHING. He just disappeared. I almost had a nervous breakdown.

One day, 3 months later his friend called me and I said: 'oh my god, is he alrights, what happened?" and he was very sad when he explained the whole thing to me.

He said (and I'll never forget this conversation until the day I did and it was over 30 years ago).

He said:

"what he did to you was not right". I said "what do you mean, what he did to me, is he all right, is he hurt, is he dead??"

The response??

"He got married". I said "He got married???" Who the hell did he marry?"

He said "the person he was living with". I said:

"He was living with me from Friday to Monday and sometimes Tuesday"

He said "yeah I know, but he was living with her from Tuesday till Friday".

I STILL DID NOT GET THIS.

I said "What are you talking about, where did she think he was from Friday till Monday and all the Christmases, and all the holiday, and Thanksgiving"??

(our relationship was over one year by the way).

He continued: (and this was very hard to swallow).

SHE HAD HER OWN THING GOING. She lived with another man during the weekends.

I just stared at the phone. I never knew people did this.

I said "And he married a woman who was leading a double life, why would he marry her". And he said "Because she gave him $10,000".

To say that I almost lost my mind over this is putting it mildly.

I could barely trust anyone after this.

So to have my son do basically the same thing to me, is why I have the walls up, the boundaries up, and the heart that really wants to heal, and feel again, but is having one heck of a time.

I'm sure you all get what I mean.

And thanks for listening.

Melody

Well, the bottom line in diagnosis is subjective with these disorders.

And they can be mixed.

I guess in your case Mel, it is enough to say, your son is manipulative (knows how to work "the system"), and self centered. His center is gambling and computers. You have to protect YOUR boundaries with him, and you have learned that.
The name for it really doesn't matter in the long run.

The name you put on that, may vary according to who one consults. I often wonder at Asperger's...and think it might be overused in some cases. Medicine is full of "fashionable" diagnoses which change to something else with time.

Mrs. D.

You summed it up brilliantly.

And I thank you (and all the others who responded) very much.

Melody

Just adding the Aspy info, to tie into the PD discussion. What I'm finding is that Aspergers can present early in life as Narcisstic and Borderline Personalities. What's occurring through more social awareness is to recognize this in our children early enough to help intervene and create an atmostphere where they can be more self-sufficient and more productive members of society, and why shouldn't they be given that chance?

http://personalitydisorders.suite101...osing_asperger

It's tough that in the past there wasn't as much 'pop' information, but now with changes in technology and more and more people using the Internet, what seemed like pop psychology has taken off and more people are getting the help and assistance that they deserve. All about the right to be human, afterall. :)

Now what I'm not a fan of is enabling self-destructive behaviors. SOmetimes, we don't always recognize it when we might do it(at least the enablers in life), and all we can do is keep trying to make life a little more peaceful and enjoyable.

Melody, I admire you for your courage and committment to doing what is right by you. :hug:

Hi Gladys

Thanks much.

Melody