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Assisted Suicide
I couldn't remember if we had discussed this here yet...did a search and couldn't find anything. Those of you who know me, know that I believe our laws should be changed regarding the right to die with dignity...that I believe if we are terminally ill with no hope for recovery we should have the choice about how long we plan to suffer.
There was a small article in yesterdays' paper about a case in Rome. An Italian judge rejected a paralyzed man's request to be removed from a respirator Saturday, ruling that the law does not permit the denial of lifesaving care and urging lawmakers to confront the issue. Piergiorgio Welby, 60, whose body has been devastated by muscular dystrophy, had pleaded repeatedly to be allowed to die of his disease, and his case has divided politicians and doctors in Italy. The Roman Catholic Church, which wields significant moral and political influence in Italy, teaches that life should reach its "natural end." Gradually paralyzed by the condition diagnosed when he was a teenager, Welby has been confined to bed for years and now can barely move his lips and eyebrows. He receives nourishment through a tube, breathes with a respirator and communicates through a voice synthesizer. |
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No, I'm not against heroic life-saving measures. I had to once make a snap decision to resuscitate my sister...it wasn't easy, and I was not expecting it because they hadn't told us yet at that point that she would be dead before Christmas (this was the day before Thanksgiving). But if a person really wants to end the suffering they are going through, I say that's their choice, not mine. Obviously we all have our own opinions on the subject. I think it makes a living will something we should all think about for the sake of loved ones and not so loved ones. |
As I tried to post earlier to this topic... it seemed the boards went down and I got a bit frustrated but I saved the link I found that seemed interesting...
http://depts.washington.edu/bioethx/topics/pas.html I find this topic interesting too. I thought about it this morning when I had trouble sleeping and wondered if there is a clear-cut opinion on the matter. In my opinion, it depends on the situation. However, the site lists pros and cons of arguments. I studied assisted suicide and euthanasia during a Religion class I took during the Terri Schavo case. We discussed it in class and it seems like the arguments we discussed are the exact same as the website. And a little "FYI" most people don't know, Oregon is the only state in the US that DOES allow legalized Physician-assisted suicide (PAS). I remember there being very specific criteria/factors involved that must be met or else it can't be done (such as being cognitively capable). This topic touches me close to home because I often wondered what my mother thought of this during her long battle with cancer. I wondered if she had thought of it or even discussed it with my father, her sister, or best friend. I know she was on heavy doses of serious pain killers but... I wonder now whether she dabbled with the idea, and would I approve. I know that I would definitely not approve if it happened then instead of the way it did, but now looking back 8 years later and much older, I think that I may slightly think it better for her not having suffered and me to have all those memories of her screaming in agony. :Sigh: But then again... it depends. She wanted to be there for us, and that was important too. So I dont think there is a clear way to solve terminal illness. I think that it should be definitely clear though, before it is done- if that is even possible. |
That's a very interesting link Wish, thank you for posting it.
I'm sure that you remember we have the monster cancer in both our memory banks...your Mom and my brother. I wanted to put a pillow over his face to end his suffering but of course, I did not. I found an interesting article by Patty Fischer, San Jose Mercury News, 11/29/06 "Aid in dying" a kinder image than suicide The folks in the right-to-die movement would prefer we not use the S-word when talking about their cause. Call it "death with dignity" or "aid in dying" they say. Just don't call it "physician-assisted suicide". Too violent and tragic. Not at all what they have in mind. "We're not talking about suicide, when a depressed person or a mentally ill person ends a life that could go on," said the Rev John Brooke. "A person who is terminally ill is already in the dying process." Brooke, 75, is a United Church of Christ minister who got into what I'll call the aid-in-dying movement nearly 20 years ago, after watching a good friend die slowly and painfully from AIDS. I first got to know him in 1992 when he was pastor of Congregational Church of Belmont and campaigning for a "death with dignity" ballot measure in California. We talked for hours then about how technology aimed at prolonging life was actually prolonging death and about the right of the terminally ill to end their suffering. I struggled with the issue and eventually wrote a wish-washy column in which I came out for the cause but against the ballot measure. I said it didn't include enough safeguards to assure that malevolent family members wouldn't use it to bump off their defenseless relatives. The initiative would have made California the first state to legalize physician aid in dying, but it failed. In those days, crackpot Jack Kevorkian was the public face of the right-to-die movement. And powerful opponents like the Roman Catholic Church and the California Medical Association campaigned aggressively against it. Two years later, Oregon passed a similiar law - but with more safeguards - and it took effect in 1997. this year, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld it despite the Bush administration's efforts to kill it. Oregon's law has worked as Brooke and others hoped it would. Some people who are near death - 64 of them in 2005 - get lethal prescriptions from their doctors, and about half of those die from their diseases without ever taking the pills. Last year, I heard from Brooke again. He'd retired from his Belmont church but not from his cause. The California Legislature was considering AB 651, a new death-with-dignity bill, and he was pushing it. By that time, Terri Schiavo had replaced Kevorkian as the issue's public face. Polls showed that 70 percent of Californians supported the right to die. The Mercury News editorial board and several other major papers in the state supported the bill. Although opponents killed it agian, I figured it was only a matter of time before California followed Oregon's lead. So when I heard from Brooke the other day, I was surprised that he wasn't pushing yet another bill. He just wanted to talk semantics. In an age of marketing slogans and sound bites, he's alarmed that "physician-assisted suicide" is the most common term for his cause. The workd 'suicide' is such a pejorative term," he said. "It makes a lot of difference in the public perception." His allies have watched conservatives define what it means to be a patriot and a Christian. they have seen abortion-rights advocates struggle to prove they weren't pro-abortion or anti-life. Now the aid-in-dying forces have gone on the offensive. In Oregon, the advocacy group Compassion & Choices recently persuaded the state to remove the word "suicide" from all references to the Death With Dignity law. Others have appealed to the Associated Press to make "aid in dying" the preferred term in its stylebook. Death by any other name is still death. It's hard to look at, hard to talk about. Leaders of the death-with-dignity movement have forced us to talk about the importance of giving dying people comfort and, in the end, the right to end their pain. And now they've given us the words we need. |
I had to make the no heroic measure decision with my grandmother years ago. She was 87 going on 88. It was a horrible time for my mother after my father being murdered, her heart attack and subsequent quintuple bypass and the trial of the man who killed him. My aunt called and asked me to please make the decision because she couldn't and couldn't ask my mom either. I cried a lot about it but came to the conclusion that all that was left was the vessel that held her and not Nanny herself.
I've told everybody under the sun that will sit still long enough to listen to me that I do not want to be kept alive artificially. I do love the "aid in dying" reference as opposed to "assisted suicide". The article of the man in Rome was pointed out to me by Robert who read it on the back of the page I was reading in the newspaper. It led to a long discussion with him. He's so wise for a twelve year old. |
from Australia and New Zealand
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More discussion from different sites worldwide out of NZ site. http://www.ves.org.nz/newslnks.htm Quote:
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"death with dignity"
Our pets are given death with dignity, Our pets are given pain medicine without question. I hate to say it BUT I know for a fact that my dog that I had to put down almost a year ago got better pain management than I do. And most people I know with debilitating conditions do not get the proper treatment. I am a firm believer in assisted siucide! My Aunt had terminal cancer and hoarded her meds for about 3 weeks. She did so so that she could take them all at once and end it. I was the only one that knew. She and I had talked at length about her wishes when she was first diagnosed. I guess I helped her. I am proud that I was able to assist her. She left us when she was ready...Not when her body was ravished by her disease. |
I'm glad your Aunt had you to talk to Dottie and that you had the courage to help.
The laws should be changed so our own physicians could prescribe those drugs for us without fear of being arrested. There are compassionate drs. out there, not all of them. I had one dr. talk to me about the "joy of agony"....he didn't "get it" for sure!! |
Lara....National Day of Shame. I so agree but then I am often "out of step" with the rest of the world. I pray that someday we get better on this life journey and will let people "off" when the time is right.
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I read yesterday in the paper where a doctor did remove his breathing tube and let him die. I will try to find it online.
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I watched my dad die for 2 years.... it was a blessing when he finally did go.
my mom didn't want to disconnect the life support stuff until i told her that God was NOT keeping him alive, it was the machines. Machines are man made so therefore man was keeping him alive.... I agree with the assisted suicide issue as well... |
(((FeelinGoofy))) I'm so glad to see you. I've been thinking you and wondering how you were doing.
Merry Christmas |
I disagree
This is my opinion, but no offence to the opponents who disagree with mine.
I disagree with the statement that ROTI or the Rights of the Terminally Ill Act should be legalised/enacted. It is difficult to say which is right and which isn't, unlike black and white. Enacting the law could be partly benefitial, however the risks, harms and disadvantages that follow outweigh the benefits. Yes, it may reduce people's suffering to death. However it is inherently wrong from the perspective of principle based or deontological ethics. It is ethically wrong. It is simplistic, wrong and dangerous responses to the complex reality of human death. Euthanasia means intentionally killing someone, rather than allowing that person to die naturally. Put bluntly, it means killing in the name of compassion. When the euthanasia becomes legal again, many people with disablities or the sick, frail, aged and marginalised will be at risk as their family might decide to end their life. Also, many of them will feel pressured to make a deadly choice as they feel that they are being a burden to their loved ones. If you are sort of a person who agrees with the euthanasia, why don't you ask yourself: "Can we sufficiently control the circumstances in which we would allow euthanasia?" Because in Holland, among 10 558 incidents of euthanasia, 5824 were performed without the patient's consent in 1990. Many could be killed in the name of euthanasia. Another reason for disagreeing with the statement mentioned above is as follows. What are the laws for? Laws create a sense of order, resulting in a society where people can live peacefully. Murder and Death penalty is illegal in many countries including Australia. When killing is illegal and if we legalise euthanasia which involves one party killing another intentionally, that doesn't make sense. okay, i'm sure some might say, 'but it is when the party wants to be killed' but hey, let's think. Up to where will it be accepted as euthanasia and up to where will it be judged as commiting murder. Depending on the case it will be different. It will bring confusions in the law and justice in it and the sense of order would perish. When the sense of order perishes, number of muders will increase in the name of euthanasia. It was already shown through the past history (although it wasn't that long ago). As mentioned above, more than half of the no. of incidents of euthanasia were perfored without the patient's consent. Conclusively, I disagree with enacting ROTI again in Australia. |
It is a very personal choice I think.
Every circumstance is different too. If you trust family & loved ones to support your wishes/or make the decision when that time comes... and if your family knows and understands your wishes & feelings on the subject.... about how to respond if you are in certain circumstances. Sometimes laws cannot be written to fit individual needs:( If someone is ready to go and family vouches for the wishes of that person - it should be done. But having those forms filled out or having it in writing and witnessed and on file somewhere is a good idea. copy of the form below- [Notice: This free legal form is provided for general informational purposes. Before you utilize any legal form you find on the Internet, you should have it reviewed by a lawyer in your jurisdiction to be sure that it meets your legal needs, and will be held valid by a court in the jurisdiction where you reside. Please recall that it is usually possible to obtain a free form medical power of attorney, reviewed for legality in your state, from a local hospital. Medical Power of Attorney Effective Upon Execution I, [NAME], a resident of [ADDRESS. COUNTY, STATE]; Social Security Number [NUMBER] designate [NAME], presently residing at [ADDRESS], telephone number [PHONE NUMBER] as my agent to make any and all health care decisions for me, except to the extent I state otherwise in this document. For the purposes of this document, "health care decision" means consent, refusal of consent, or withdrawal of consent to any care, treatment, service, or procedure to maintain, diagnose, or treat an individual's physical or mental condition. This medical power of attorney takes effect if I become unable to make my own health care decisions and this fact is certified in writing by my physician. Limitations: [Describe any desired limitations, for example, concerning life support, life-prolonging care, treatment, services, and procedures.] Inspection and Disclosure of Information Relating to My Physical or Mental Health: Subject to any limitations in this document, my agent has the power and authority to do all of the following: 1. Request, review, and receive any information, verbal or written, regarding my physical or mental health, including, but not limited to, medical and hospital records; 2. Execute on my behalf any releases or other documents that may be required in order to obtain this information; 3. Consent to the disclosure of this information. Additional Powers: Where necessary to implement the health care decisions that my agent is authorized by this document to make, my agent has the power and authority to execute on my behalf all of the following: 1. Documents titled or purporting to be a "Refusal to Permit Treatment" and "Leaving Hospital Against Medical Advice"; 2. Any necessary waiver or release from liability required by a hospital or physician. Duration: This power of attorney exists indefinitely from its date of execution, unless I establish herein a shorter time or revoke the power of attorney. [If applicable: This power of attorney expires on [DATE]. If I am unable to make health care decisions for myself when this power of attorney expires, the authority I have granted my agent shall continue to exist until such time as I become able to make health care decisions for myself.] Alternative Agent: In the event that my designated agent becomes unable, unwilling, or ineligible to serve, I hereby designate [NAME], presently residing at [ADDRESS], telephone number [PHONE NUMBER] as my as my first alternate agent, and [NAME], presently residing at [ADDRESS], telephone number [PHONE NUMBER] as my as my second alternate agent. Prior Designations Revoked: I revoke any prior Medical Power of Attorney. Location of Documents: The original copy of this Medical Power of Attorney is located at [Location]. Signed copies of this Medical Power of Attorney have been filed with the following individuals and institutions: [Names and Addresses]. I sign my name to this Medical Power of attorney on the date of [DATE], at [ADDRESS, COUNTY, STATE]. _______________________________ NAME Statement of Witnesses I hereby declare under penalty of perjury that the person who signed or acknowledged this document is personally known to me (or proved to me on the basis of convincing evidence) to be the principal, that the principal signed or acknowledged this durable medical power of attorney in my presence, that the principal appears to be of sound mind and under no duress, fraud, or undue influence. I am not the person appointed an agent by this document. I am not related to the principal by blood, marriage, or adoption. I would not be entitled to any portion of the principal's estate on the principal's death. I am not the attending physician of the principal or an employee of the attending physician. I have no claim against any portion of the principal's estate on the principal's death. Furthermore, if I am an employee of a health care facility in which the principal is a patient, I am not involved in providing direct patient care to the principal and am not an officer, director, partner, or business office employee of the health care facility or of any parent organization of the health care facility. _______________________________ Witness _______________________________ Witness Subscribed and sworn to before me on [DATE]. ____________________________________ Notary Public, [COUNTY, STATE] My commission expires ______________.] http://www.expertlaw.com/library/est..._attorney.html |
I find myself rethinking this whole issue because those "left behind" will still suffer the agony that suicide brings.....guess I'm getting old. ~sigh
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I don't know Alffe... perhaps I am now too biased?
But I can't help but think, IF there was a way for those to legally let go... would I be here - falling apart?? :Dunno: |
I know Nikki...I'm going to bump up something else about this because it was probably before you found us. :hug:
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I have a different point of view; perhaps from walking in the shoes of one who really wanted to help someone die but was unable to. My oldest brother was hit by a car in 1981 and was in a "vegetative state" for 25 years....I wanted so badly to unplug his respirator. My sister and younger brother and I fought to have it disconnected. (His wife had been killed in an accident 5 years earlier and their kids were too young to have a say). It was a very ugly time. It was made even uglier by the fact that he "lived" like that for 25 years almost to the day. What a waste! I know that people say that God has a reason for everything but I just can't find a reason in this.....maybe I'm just not open minded enough; I don't know. But at least it taught me to make certain that EVERYONE knows what I want and to have it in writing!!!!!!
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Ohhhhhhhh 25 years! I can't even imagin what a nightmare that was.
(((Hippie Chick))) Putting it in writing and telling people what you want and where it's written....can only hope our wishes will be respected. :grouphug: |
((((Hippiechick)))))...so glad to see you...and so very sorry you had to go through that. I just want people to know that it is also extremely, and I can't express this enough, important to let your family KNOW exactly what you want and that they fully understand and agree with it. Because if they don't, and a person ends up in this kind of situation, or something like it, the family can change everything, and the person, being helpless, can't do anything about it....:( I have seen that happen
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http://feeds2.feedburner.com/WorldOfPsychology
************************ http://blogs.psychcentral.com/depression/ ************************ |
After Lynn was diagnosed, when he knew what was going to happen to him... he would stand alone for hours just staring off. Often times he would come in with tear soaked face and say he wanted to die, he would plead and beg with me to help him end it. I couldn't.........
Back then, I thought I knew all about Alzheimer's. I had followed Reagan's story, I did tons of research. I had heard of the long good-bye, I thought I knew what we were to face...I knew nothing! I have been thinking about this a lot of late. The first few years were not too bad. His short term memory was bad, it was annoying repeating the same things a hundred times a day, but he still knew who he was, who I was.. we still did many things together as man and wife, life was still good. The last few years, have been a living hell. There just are not words to describe the torture it is to watch your spouse slip away from you inch by inch, day by day, year by year. One is always saying good-bye. At first to simple things, then as the years go by each good-bye is harder and more devastating. The long good-bye doesn't begin to cover the hell of this disease. Knowing what I do now, would I have been able to forgive Lynn if he had ended his life? Would I have helped him end his future hell, by ending his life? It is more complicated now because I know the hell left behind after a loved one takes their life. In my mind there is a huge difference between suicide because you just give up on life, and assisted suicide for those who are terminally ill. Dad wasn't terminal. His suicide will never make sense to me. I will always be haunted by his death. I am not sure I will ever be able to completely forgive him. He chose to leave me, that is something I will never heal from. I understand that he was in pain, and now I realize that for him to be able to take his own life he was mentally ill. But, that does little to console my broken heart. And if I am truthful, part of me is mad at him because he didn’t seek treatment. I think it takes more courage to stay and fight than to simply give up. Suicide will always be the wrong choice in my eyes. I certainly understand the want, and the need, to end the pain... I GET IT! But, when you kill yourself, you also kill a part of every person who loved you. I will never be whole again. Assisted suicide for the terminally ill, is entirely different. IMHO I have thought on this for a long long time and I know, I would not have been able to help Lynn end his life when he asked. Not then, because he still had good quality of life. But, now ... knowing what I do now, if there had been a way to foresee the torturous hell his life would become, I would have. If he was able to ask me now, I would help him. I love that man, I love who he was, I love him enough that I wish for his pain to end. It is a sad world in which we live, one that treats their animals kinder than their loved ones. Tragic. |
I couldn't possible agree with you more dear Nikki. There is a world of difference. :hug:
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:Good-Post:
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http://www.seattlepi.com/national/11...tml?source=rss
*************************** Another point of view...http://www.lifenews.com/bio2714.html *************************** |
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It's Doodys fault that I am bumping this up....;) She pm'd me a link to a Frontline Program (PBS) regarding one mans journey to end his suffering from ALS. Not sure about linking it here. :grouphug:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ource=bigimage ************************ |
Yes I made her do it, LOL!
A friend posted it on Facebook and I watched the program in its entirety. It was difficult to watch his final moments though. The reason it's entitled the Suicide Tourist is because it's legal in several other countries but only one will take in people from other countries. I believe it's Switzerland. So this couple applied to this doctor's program and it followed the couple throughout their decision making progress to the very end. It also features another couple who have decided that they want to die together. The husband is very ill but the wife is perfectly healthy. Very interesting program, but quite sad...depending on what ideals or faith you subscribe to, I should say. |
Assisted suicide
Jack Kevorkian is a saint.
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this is from the newsbot in the health forum here....
http://www.the33tv.com/news/nationwo...0,635003.story PEACE BMW |
Wrong
This man is charging $4,000.00 for a "death with dignity." These charges negate the principle of a quiet, easy and private death. Jack Kevorkian charged nothing to aid his patients in their chosen finality. People WOULD rather die at home surrounded by their loved ones. This man is a vulture-like character.
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Finally found it....thank you Doody. *grin
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choice please allow
I think a thread should be posted specifically about this issue. I have found alot of negative input, but the subject couldn't be more important. People on this site, I think the moderators have not really wanted to include dicussion so far, and I hope they will allow us to continue. Our lives our our own, and we have the right to choice, it is our body and soul after all is said done. Nobody should have the right to tell another what they must and must not do for their own body. I have said no to even a test (emg) and I was chastised for not being cooperative. Well I am not going to be cooperative if and when my health goes down. No way. I will decide for myself what is right and wrong when my life is on the line. I do have health care requests ready, but I have gone a few steps further. There is a compassionate organization that I joined years and years ago. I am still here, I have no current plans. I have made my wishes known to my son and best friend. It is the future that I think about. I want my dignity. I hope we can open this subject up and not get in trouble. I really was hoping they would allow it. I am in contact with {final exit{ and am working on a bullitinboard for our area. I want to do something for the organization while I can and am relitively healthy. The group is aging, and needs others to continue dicussion in this country. So far I have been unable to talk to even my good friends and neighbors to get a dicussion going at the library. The library isn't really in favor of it. We all have been distanced by the subject and even death itself. I had a friend who wanted me there in the hospital when he was dying. However I was not family, and was kicked out. He passed that night and neithor of us was granted time because I was not family. I was intentionally distanced from his death. Is this right? Hospitals don't often do what I think is right, and I have been at too many bedsides. Lets see what this site will do, and hopefully we can open a thread for dicussion and be open about it. ginnie
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Re: thoughts
Hi Alfie, I read that site that you put on the thread. The idea of suiside is discouraged. I am not suisidal, and yet years and years ago I joined a group for dicussion. I just planned for a future choice. I have been at too many bedsides to think that a hospital will do what you wish. My father convulved in my arms from pain. He had throat cancer. There was not enough pain relief even with hospice. Nope, that is not what I am going to do if I can help it. ginnie
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Hi ginnie...did you watch The Suicide Tourist? I think this thread is all about choice and I think the mods are very agreeable to expressions of opinion regarding our choices. What we cannot do, and don't do here is announce our decisions to hurt/kill ourselves...that would help no one.
I just want the information here. I have all the books, (Derek Humphry) and Sherwin Nuland..etc and we have discussed The Bridge (did you watch that?) I have nothing but admiration for the ALS pt Craig Ewert, who choose to end his life. And it was a repeat last night on PBS. :grouphug: |
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...neroped03.html
Thanks lou lou for directing me to this post. I have missed you and was shocked to hear of your marriage and your loss. So sorry dear lady...continued prayers for you. :hug: :hug: |
Re glad for openness
Hi alffe, so glad the site is open for dicussion on hard topics. I have known lou lou too. So many good souls here, looking for support and answers. suffering is so great sometimes I can't help but tear up for others. I keep my prayer list going. As long as this site is available, I will be back to hear from my friends, my support team, when things are at the darkest. I hope I hear from the States Attorney. That is what I need to help solve my problem. Thank you ginnie:hug:
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Re: yes I watched
I did watch those movies. I get a news letter from FE ever so often and I do have a councelor both inside the organization, and privately a friend who happens to be a psychologist. I use to live in MO. and now live in Fla. so I do have long distance service! ginnie "
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And another bump...
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