joint pain and MS?
 

I've been having bouts of pain in my hips, wrists, base of thumb, elbows which my regular doc calls arthritis/tendonitis/buritis.
Seems its always something other than a MS issue.

Yet when I research joint pain and MS, I come up with some validation that there is this type of pain in MS.

To me it almost feels like a tendon problem but in a lot of places at once.
My elbow feels like "tennis elbow" but so do my thumbs and hips! Its sensitive to pressure, so when I sleep on my sides my hips hurt. If I pick something heavy up my thumbs/wrists/elbows hurt.

Does anyone else experience this type of pain?
I have a Neuro appt in Oct and will certainly double check with her....in the meantime.....ouch all over!

It sound like arthritis pain to me, Karilann. I have some joint pain, but hey, I'm getting old and I've had MS for over 40 yrs, so with me, it could be the natural process of things?

If you have a lot of stiffness/spasticity with your MS, that too, could be the reason for the pain. I would imagine that if your stiffness ever relaxes, then the pain could come.

OK that's your pre-med 101 lesson for the day.:D

I hope your doc can help you with your pain...so sorry.

Hugs,

Hi there Karilann. Have you ever had any doctors suggest Fibromyalgia? I have both that and MS and the symptoms for fibro are pain and stiffness in the muscles, tendons and ligaments. However, I've noticed joint pain also and don't know which to blame it on!! All I know is -- it HURTS all the time and so far nothing really takes away the pain.

Now we read that there is more pain associated with MS than originally believed, so who knows?? I'm sorry not to have any constructive info for helping aleviate the pain, but can definitely empathize with you.

Take care.......Judy -- aka msproperlady

joint pain worries
 

Hi,
I was researching joint pain associated with ms and your post came up. I am 25 years old and have had unexplained joint pain for years. Mine sounds a lot like yours! Its almost like a burning sensation in my shoulders, knees, hips and elbows. Mine is also pressure sensitive and hurts when i lean/sleep on it. I have been tested for RA, Lymes disease and a million other things.
Have you learned anything new about the link (if any) between this type of pain and MS or fibromyalgia? I have another doctors appointment this week and plan on bringing it up.
it is nice for me to read that someone else has the same symptoms that I do as everyone I know seems to brush me off when I tell them. my pain is getting worse and Im starting to get scared that something is really wrong.
Ideas anyone? Thank you!

Hi Marissa and welcome to the group! I don't really have anything new to add, but wanted to wish you luck at your doctor's appointment.

Personally, I was diagnosed with osteo-inflammatory-degenerative arthritis when in my 20's -- before MS. Lately it's been bothering me again, especially my hands where I have those lumps on the first joint of all my fingers. Like Sally, I'm not a "spring chicken" anymore, but this seems to come at any age. Sorry! :( For me, plain old Aleve helps as much as anything.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Welcome marissa :D --- I angers me so when anyone so young has so much pain :mad: --- So sorry!!!

joint pain
 

Some of my first symptoms were joint pain. I had pain in my knees, hips, elbows and neck. Te joint pain pointed us away from MS because it's not supposed to be associated. Then one day, my husband pointed out that I was walking crooked. I had my whole body out of wack. So, with his help, I started walking straight, even though it felt crooked. Pretty soon, my joint aches went away. They've been back a time or two, but then I get some help reorienting my body, and eventually the aches stop.

I hope you have success with getting rid of the joint pain.

Katty

joint pain
 

Hi, I am having the same type of symptoms, I have fibro, but suspect ms, and I did read someplace on this wide web that there can be this type of pain with ms, b/c of the muscle spacitity. Yes it hurts, sometimes unbearably and it will make you crazy, and some dr's have this idea and some have another about what symptoms are conducive of ms or something else.
I sympathize with you, I don't have any answers for you, but I understand about how it feels and how the family or friends or coworkers, etc don't understand. The only ones who seem to understand and want to give me comfort are my puppies. They think a nap is just the ticket to feeling better.:) Hope you start to feel better.

Hi Karilann, I also experience joint pain. I'm only 33, but was involved with many sports before MS. Some (basketball, volleyball) were very hard on my joint. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with my pain, but the last year or so (really bad right now) I have had a lot of pain in my wrists and my knees. I'm use to the pain in my knees but it doesn't hurt me all of the time. This wrist pain bothers me all of the time, it is a dull ache and it is really starting to get to me. I take Motrin and it doesn't seem to help. Sorry I couldn't give you any answers, but please let me know if you find anything that helps, I will do the same. I hope you start feeling better.

Pain all over
 

Went to Nuero appt and she told me that the pain assoc with MS can be very much like Fibromyalgia. She said the spasticity pulls and affects the tendons so you feel like you may have tendonitis all over.

She offered me vicodin, but I said I'd try stretching first.
Now my R hand is beginning to feel like I may have carpel tunnel....no reason for this to start! The bottom of my heels are sore too.

Karliann,

I have the exact pain you are describing.
It started off with Carpal Tunnel like sensations in my wrists and elbows. I have all the tests and nothing was found. I also have severly red hands and feet.

Now I ache like that all over. Neck, Knees, hands, arms - everywhere. My neuro seems to think it is a MS symptom. It will be 2 years in January since it all started. I haven't found much to help it, but I do know extreme temp changes, sitting/sleeping still too long and sleeping any position but my back makes it worse.

Some days it bad. Really bad. Those days are hard.
There are easier days too, those are the ones I live for.

Best of luck to you

Lymes?
 

Hi,

Did you get a lymes test? Have the doctor do a Western Blot. If more than three lines of the test are positive, you might consider pursuing treatment. Lymes and MS can be very similar, but a hallmark of lymes is joint pain.

Kathleen

Personally, I have had no issues with joint pain, EXCEPT what is definitely tendonitis in my elbow. I have had it treated 3 or 4 times over the years, by my physiotherapist, and each time it comes 100% good after several visits and lots of homework (specific exercises).

If it is tendonitis, PT should fix it. It's not a completely painless or a quick recovery, and the longer you leave it, the more scar tissue there is (so the harder it is to rectify). Alternatively, you can use some sort of steroid shots (can't remember the name exactly). Apparently that is NOT 100% effective, and fairly painful too, so I have not opted for that route before. :rolleyes:

I have had a feeling that my tendons are pulled to the max, but that occurs in my forearm and calves; I don't feel any pain in my joints. This is apparently spasticity-related and a regular stretching routine helped for this (as did braces, A/D's). I haven't had much problem at all from this since starting on LDN though.

Cherie

Whats up with that?
 

Okay, my mysterious onslaught of pain everywhere has mysteriously disappeared. :confused:
I'm beginning to believe it is MS related (spasticity in the flexors) and is the result of the two week trip hubby and I took to Colorado late September. We drove out with the truck camper and took the back roads going out there (stopping at all the sights). 2 weeks in the camper when the weather is beginning to change (I believe) is the culprit. I probably over did it. Spring and Fall always brings a bit of a flare up for me anyway. I am seriously going to start a daily stretching routine.
My hubby and I are both retired and he wants to travel, travel, travel. Now...while I think this is all wonderful.....is it going to kill me? :thud:Oh good grief.

Something occurred to me . . .

The only time I have had bad joint pain was when I started on Tetracycline, and had an allergic reaction. Apparently this is a rare reaction, but something to watch for when you start some new meds.

Cherie

joint pain
 

When I am in extremely bad pain????? I use elastic bandages and wrap my wrists, forearms, ankles feet, etc... After a while, it seems to help, at least getting the pain down to a dull roar.
So far none of the nsaids have helped. When my back is doing it's thing only more so...a nice warm shower helps, however be sure to cool down, if not then you might get sick from being too warm or hot.
I try laying against one of our warm doggies, the support, and warmth does help.
feel better
Geri

MS & Joint Pain
 

I just read a medical journal article online & it says that 65% of people with MS also suffer joint pain. I hope this verifies the reality of your pain, Karilynn. It's not imagined, it's a fact. Best to you all who suffer this frustrating disease & all the symptoms of it.

Hi Dixie - and welcome to Neurotalk! :welcome_sign:

I have been having BIG issues with joint pain - in my hands, arms, legs.....even my heels hurt!! I discussed this with my Neuro when I went for my appointment last week and he prescribed Diclofenac (anti-inflammatory). He also sent me for a complete blood workup to rule out Arthritis and Lupus. I haven't gotten the results from those tests yet.

I had never heard that joint pain was a symptom of MS but nothing about this disease makes any sense to me...:confused:

Joint pain can be part of spasticity.


Welcome to NeuroTalk, Dixie :)

I also have the "joint pain" Karilann describes, especially in my hands, but in my legs too. It comes and stays a few days, becoming progressively more painful and then one day "WHAM" It's gone completely.

There are times it feels as if my hand or whatever is being affected is actually broken. After the initial pain is gone I will have what I call systematic cramps for a few days, where it spasms in waves, but nowhere near as painful as the initial pain!

The doc said...spasticity...and told me when it happens to up the baclofen for a few days and then taper down when it goes away. Stretching also helps, along with soaking in hot water or doing a hot wax bath on the affected area, but only for a few minutes.

It bites when it's the hands. Even holding the steering wheel hurts like hail! Forget carrying anything that has any weight to it. When it's a leg...I may as well just sit down cause I can't even carry ME!:cool:

Recently Diagnosed
 

Hi,
I am 26 years old and have just been diagnosed with MS. I do not get to see a specialist for a couple months and there is so much going on with me that I don't know what to do. I too have so much joint pain that it hurts to do daily activities. My pain is mostly in my legs (Hips, Knees, Ankles). I do every once in a while get it it my elbows. I don't know if I should call my regular Dr, or if this isn't even related to the MS. Just looking for some input....thank you so much!

Not everything is related to MS, so if you have this pain and don't know whether or not it IS related to MS then the safe bet is always to call your doctor. It would be preferable to call your neurologist (if you have one) first, but lacking a regular neurologist, call your normal doc. I know when I had problems with pain and my neurologist wasn't giving me anything for it, my family doc did and man, did it make a world of difference!

Good luck with the pain! As CayoKay put it, "It sucketh!"

:hug:

P.S. And sorry to hear about your recent diagnosis. Be kind to yourself for a while. it's a bit of a mental adjustment!

Hello, I have joint pain too. I like stretching and I take a mineral for anti-inflammatation (sp). As crazy as it sounds progesterone cream seems to help too. Good luck!

Hi Elizabeth! Welcome to NeuroTalk. I'm glad you joined the group.....there's lots of very caring and supportive people here.

Thank you for your help. I have called my regular Dr. and she did give me some pain medication. Unfortunatley it makes me sleepy so I can only take it at night. I am just dealing with things day by day until I can see someone. Again, thank you all!!

In addition to the tendon insertion point pain throughout the body there is also a REAL connection to the classic osteoarthritis (OA) and rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Since MS involves inflammation process and ALL the little ""thingies" that involves, it is NOT unexpected that other INFLAMMATORY conditions can pop up their ugly heads.

My greatest benefit from my supplement program to reduce MMP-9s has been the relief from my arthritis(OA). I have not used my crutches in over 8 years and my finger joints and thumb no longer cause me SEVERE PAIN.

This abstract from Lebanon says the the MMPs eat the "cartilage, tendon, and bone". Main problem is they eat the cartilage!!!
'

MMP = Matrix MetalloProteinases

1: Front Biosci. 2006 Jan 1;11:529-43.

Matrix metalloproteinases: role in arthritis.
Burrage PS, Mix KS, Brinckerhoff CE.
Department of Biochemistry, Dartmouth Medical School, Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center, Lebanon, NH 03756, USA.

The irreversible destruction of the cartilage, tendon, and bone that comprise synovial joints is the hallmark of both rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and osteoarthritis (OA).

While cartilage is made up of proteoglycans and type II collagen, tendon and bone are composed primarily of type I collagen.

RA is an autoimmune disease afflicting numerous joints throughout the body; in contrast, OA develops in a small number of joints, usually resulting from chronic overuse or injury. In both diseases, inflammatory cytokines such as interleukin-1 beta (IL-1 beta) and tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) stimulate the production of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), enzymes that can degrade all components of the extracellular matrix. The collagenases, MMP-1 and MMP-13, have predominant roles in RA and OA because they are rate limiting in the process of collagen degradation. MMP-1 is produced primarily by the synovial cells that line the joints, and MMP-13 is a product of the chondrocytes that reside in the cartilage. In addition to collagen, MMP-13 also degrades the proteoglycan molecule, aggrecan, giving it a dual role in matrix destruction.

Expression of other MMPs such as MMP-2, MMP-3 and MMP-9, is also elevated in arthritis and these enzymes degrade non-collagen matrix components of the joints.

Significant effort has been expended in attempts to design effective inhibitors of MMP activity and/or synthesis with the goal of curbing connective tissues destruction within the joints.

:eek:To date, however, no effective clinical inhibitors exist. :mad:

Increasing our knowledge of the crystal structures of these enzymes and of the signal transduction pathways and molecular mechanisms that control MMP gene expression may provide new opportunities for the development of therapeutics to prevent the joint destruction seen in arthritis.

PMID: 16146751

These Lebanonese fools have obviously not read my postings.

jackD

"Things" that reduce MMP-9s (AKA gelatinase B)

This list of GOOD "things" for MS should seem familiar - This is WHY???

QUERCETIN..........................REDUCES MMP-9s

VIT D3 .................................REDUCES MMP-9s

RESVERATROL (Grape Skin Extract) ...REDUCES MMP-9s
(NOT GRAPE SEED EXTRACT)

GREEN TEA EXTRACT(EGCGs)... REDUCES MMP-9s

ALPHA LIPOIC ACID (R-lipoic/ R-Dihdro-LipoicAcid) ... REDUCES MMP-9s

NAC N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine .......REDUCES MMP-9s

STATIN DRUGS (i.e Zocor) .....REDUCES MMP-9s

Omega-3s (ie Fish oil) ...........REDUCES MMP-9s

Minocycline/Doxycycline.........REDUCES MMP-9s

Curcumin.............................REDUCES MMP-9s

Pycnogenol (Pine bark extract)..REDUCES MMP-9s

Chondroitin sulfate (CS) and CS plus glucosamine sulfate (GS) ..REDUCES MMP-9s

Interferon Betas 1a/1b...........REDUCES MMP-9

(of course Steroids ....REDUCES MMP-9s)


P.S. Lowering the MMP-9s will greatly help your MS also.


1: Neuroscientist. 2002 Dec;8(6):586-95.

Matrix metalloproteinases and neuroinflammation in multiple sclerosis.

Rosenberg GA.
Department of Neurology, University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87131, USA. grosenberg@salud.unm.edu

Matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) are extracellular matrix remodeling neutral proteases that are important in normal development, angiogenesis, wound repair, and a wide range of pathological processes.

Growing evidence supports a key role of the MMPs in many neuroinflammatory conditions, including meningitis, encephalitis, brain tumors, cerebral ischemia, Guillain-Barré, and multiple sclerosis (MS).

:eek:The MMPs attack the basal lamina macromolecules that line the blood vessels, opening the blood-brain barrier (BBB).

:eek::eek::eek:They contribute to the remodeling of the blood vessels that causes hyalinosis and gliosis, and :eek:they attack myelin:mad:.

During the acute inflammatory phase of MS, they are involved in the injury to the blood vessels and may be important in the disruption of the myelin sheath and axons. Normally under tight regulation, excessive proteolytic activity is detected in the blood and cerebrospinal fluid in patients with acute MS. Because they are induced in immunologic and nonimmunologic forms of demyelination, they act as a final common pathway to exert a "bystander" effect.

Agents that block the action of the MMPs have been shown to reduce the damage to the BBB and lead to symptomatic improvement in several animal models of neuroinflammatory diseases, including experimental allergic encephalomyelitis. Such agents may eventually be useful in the control of excessive proteolysis that contributes to the pathology of MS and other neuroinflammatory conditions.

PMID: 12467380

WHAT IS A MMP??

ans:
Simply put MMPs are a family of about 27 (mmp-1 to MMP-27) enzymes that share a common characteristic function and structure of cutting "THINGS" up into little pieces.

Unfortunately for MS folks they (MMP-9s) like to cut a hole in our BBB Blood Brain Barrier and then enter the brain and cut our myelin into three components that the other hungry characters like to dine on.

They (MMPs) all have a zinc ion tip that allows them to break down hydrogen bonds in tissue thus allows absorption of dead or dying tissue to be reabsorbed or sent via the lymph system to others places to exit out the poop shoot.

The MMP-9s usually have an accompanying regulator protein that is suppose to make sure that it only "eat/cuts up" BAD stuff. This is called a TIMP-1. For NORMAL folks there is a one-to-one ratio of MMP-9 to TIMP-1s.

Sad to say for us MS folks that we have lots of MMP-9s that I call ROGUE MMP-9s that have no accompanying regulating timp-1. Just before and during a MS relapse the total MMP-9s level rise significently. The first thing they do is cut a BIG hole in our BBB Blood Brain Barrier!! They then enter and do the following...

They just wander around the brain cutting up anything "active" and when they run into an active transmission cable the eat through it, The outside of that cable is called myelin. (a fatty insulating substance)

The advantage of taking an Interferon Beta is that after about 4 to 6 months of starting beta treatment that the ratio of MMP-s to TIMP-1s goes back to the desirable one-to-one ration.

There are NO effective drugs to lower just MMP-9s. Some drugs were developed but they shut them all (all 27) down and killed the host.

Some antibiotics seem to lower MMP-9s quite well but taking those for long periods of time can be deadly. Likewise taking some steroids can lower the MMP-9s quite well but can be equally deadly over the long haul.

Pain & MS
 

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/abo...ain/index.aspx

CLICK ON THIS LINK FOR IT HAS MUCH MORE INFORMATION THAN JUST PROVIDED HERE

Pain syndromes are common in MS. In one study, 55% of people with MS had “clinically significant pain” at some time. Almost half (48%) were troubled by chronic pain. This study suggested that factors such as age at onset, length of time with MS, or degree of disability played no part in distinguishing the people with pain from the people who were pain free. The study also indicated that twice as many women as men experienced pain as part of their MS.

Several Sources and Types of Pain in MS

Acute Pain

Trigeminal neuralgia is a stabbing pain in the face. It can occur as an initial symptom of MS. While it can be confused with dental pain, this pain is neuropathic (caused by damage to the trigeminal nerve) in origin. It can usually be treated with medications such as the anticonvulsants carbamazepine (Tegretol®) or phenytoin (Dilantin®).

Lhermitte’s sign is a brief, stabbing, electric-shock-like sensation that runs from the back of the head down the spine, brought on by bending the neck forward. Medications, including anticonvulsants, may be used to prevent the pain, or a soft collar may be used to limit neck flexion.

Burning, aching or “girdling” around the body are all neurologic in origin. The technical name for them is dysesthesias. These pains are often treated with the anticonvulsant medication gabapentin (Neurontin®). Dysesthesias may also be treated with an antidepressant such as amitriptyline (Elavil®), which modifies how the central nervous system reacts to pain. Other treatments include wearing a pressure stocking or glove, which can convert the sensation of pain to one of pressure; warm compresses to the skin, which may convert the sensation of pain to one of warmth; and over-the-counter acetaminophen (Tylenol® and others) which may be taken daily, under a physician’s supervision.

Duloxetine hydrochloride (Cymbalta®) was approved by the FDA in 2004 for treatment of depression and treatment of pain associated with diabetic peripheral neuropathy. Cymbalta® belongs to the group of medications known as selective serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SSNRIs). Although not specifically approved for use in MS, its effectiveness in diabetic neuropathy makes it a suitable candidate for the treatment of neuropathic pain in MS, and MS specialists consider it a good treatment option for people with MS.

Pregabalin (Lyrica®), also approved by the FDA in 2004, is recommended for the treatment of neuropathic pain associated with diabetes, fibromyalgia and certain types of seizures. Although not specifically approved for use in MS, it is also considered a good treatment option for people with MS.
Chronic Pain

Burning, aching, prickling or “pins and needles” may be chronic rather than acute. The treatments are the same as for the acute dysesthesias described above.

Pain of spasticity has its own subcategories. Muscle spasms or cramps, called flexor spasms, may occur. Treatments include medication with baclofen (Lioresal®) or tizanidine (Zanaflex®), ibuprofen, or other prescription strength anti-inflammatory agents. Treatment also includes regular stretching exercises and balancing water intake with adequate sodium and potassium, as shortages in either of these can cause muscle cramps. Tightness and aching in joints is another manifestation of spasticity, and generally responds well to the treatments described above.

Back and other musculoskeletal pain in MS can have many causes, including spasticity. Pressure on the body caused by immobility, incorrect use of mobility aids, or the struggle to compensate for gait and balance problems may all contribute. An evaluation to pinpoint the source of the pain is essential. Treatments may include heat, massage, ultrasound, physical therapy and treatment for spasticity.

Pain and the Emotions

Most pain in MS can be treated. But not all pain a person with MS has is due to MS. Whatever the source, pain is a complex problem that should not be ignored. Many factors may contribute, including fear and worry. A multidisciplinary pain clinic may be able to treat chronic disabling pain with medication in combination with such alternative therapies as biofeedback, hypnosis, yoga, meditation or acupuncture. Self-help may also play an important role in pain control. People who stay active and maintain positive attitudes are often able to reduce the impact of pain on their quality of life.

Good post; I'm not dxd with MS, but have much joint pain, stiffnes, sometimes in tears...I'm stretching to try to loosen up, but still wish I could move better:(:(
Thanks for all the info...

I believe that I have MS. I haven't been formally diagnosed yet, but have an appt. on Wednesday. I have been diagnosed with carpal tunnel, arthritis and CFS. In the last month I have been experiencing muscle stiffness in my legs and lower back which make me walk funny, ringing in my ears, and being "dingy" as my husband and kids say. This morning when I got out of bed the heel on my left foot was very painful. The pain got less severe as the morning went on, but it is still there. I am so worried that I will go for years without being formally diagnosed. I am trying to ease pain and symptoms by diet and exercise, but some days I can't exercise because my body won't let me be coordinated!

I have had the same kind of pain in nearly every joint in my body for years. I have also been tested for everything on earth and nothing (except ms). My doc says it is unusual for someone my age to this kind of joint pain. I am 41, granted not a spring chicken but I have had this for years. I do know I have a little arthritis in hte knees but no explaination for the rest other than ms sx.