Thinking of avoiding back surgery. Thoughts?
 

So earlier in the month I was approved for SSI due to a spinal injury that was diagnosed in 2005. I have slipped discs in the L4-5 and the L5-S1, and some nerve damage to boot. I recall words like "obliterated" and "emergency" being thrown around after the diagnosis, and the doctor wanted to do immediate surgery.

Until he found out I was uninsured. At that point, it was a "Don't let the door hit you in the butt" attitude, and the injury has remained untreated. I'm sure my spine must be in a really bad way now, although when I was approved for SSI they didn't run another MRI, so I can't be sure about the extent of what's gone on back there in the last six years.

I know there are days when I can't move for the pain. I just lay on my side and cry. Those days are the worst.

But now that I'm on SSI and Medicaid, I'm planning on seeing a doctor and trying to get on a pain management program. I need to get my weight under control -- it spiraled as a result of inability to take cardio exercise and self-destructive bouts of depression -- and I'm hoping that will go a long way in naturally alleviating the pain.

The thing I've gone back and forth on is exploring the possibility of back surgery. For along time I was determined that I would have it done immediately if I were able, but, well, I'm not sure it's the best solution. The doctor who examined me for the SSA outright advised against it, saying it could make things potentially much worse.

And I'd say he's right: my mother has Degenerative Disc Disease and has had a number of surgeries as a result. None of them have helped. One of them made things worse. My ex girlfriend's mother has also suffered permanent injury due to back surgery for slipped discs. And like I said, I've even got doctors and nurses advising me to avoid surgery.

I'm looking for outside opinions on the matter. If pain management and weight loss is enough to make life tolerable, then I'd be more than happy to stick with that. I'm not sure I want to risk further injury.

Here we go again!....
 

Hi Hibiki, :welcome_sign:

So what's the score thus far? From your post, it appears you had 1 cutter almost seven years ago in favor of surgery, and several more medical professionals since who have advised against it; is that right? :Hum:

As Dirty Harry might ask... "Do you feel lucky?" which isn't really too far off.

The thing is, while all surgeries involve inherrent risks, unlike an appendectomy or many other procedures, there's nothing "routine" about spine surgery; there are too many variables; probably more than with any other type of surgery. Back surgery is also the only kind of surgery (or procedure) I know of that fails so often they have a name for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_back_syndrome

Let's be clear - there are successful back surgeries, but the risks (statistics) of being the same - or worse - following surgery are high enough that it should only be considered as an absolute last resort after all other therapies have proven ineffective, and even then only after getting multiple opinions. Surgery cannot be "undone" though many people have had to endure multiple procedures due to initial failure, mistakes, and deteriorating conditions. Surgery is also no guarantee of fixing pain; the physical defects may be corrected, but damage to nerves and other factors can leave pain unaffected or worse.

There are a LOT of options to try before getting to surgery, and even then a Pain Pump or Spinal Cord Stimulator may be preferable to other procedures. A lot also depends on the exact procedure (and associated variables) being considered (e.g. Surgery on the cervical spine may be more risky than lower down due to the greater number of nerves branching out from the neck. That's just one example.)

I have (what my doctor said was) severe problems at the top (cervical) and bottom (lumbar) areas - discs so badly deteriorated I have bone on bone. My specialist - an orthopedic surgeon at a spine center at a large medical center (with a whole department of surgeons with whom to consult) - advised against surgery for me as being too great a risk.

Things may change in the future; my condition may deteriorate to a point where surgery becomes the last resort, or techniques and technology may someday improve to the point that the risk is greatly lessened, but until something like that happens, I'm not sorry I took my doctor's advice. Surgery isn't going to go away; it'll be there tomorrow even if my discs aren't! :yikes:

Doc

back surgery: to do or not to do...
 

B"H

I agree with Doc Smith. it seems only one cutter has told you you need cutting. several other doctors have said no cutting. it seems like loosing weight and getting to a pain specialist is a good course to proceed as the pain doctor may recommend some PT or some kind of block or epidural. there is also acupuncture. I would try all the less invasive measures first. surgery is always an option. it will not go away, but it need not be the first resort.

personally, I had to have back surgery as my disc fluid was leaking out onto the nerve which is caustic like acid to skin. but, it took many procedures to figure this out and many less invasive therapies before they went hunting for the origin. my surgery was successful, but not total bliss as I still have pain from the damage caused by the leaking disk to the nerves. if I had to do it again, I would, but after exhausting all resources short of surgery.

I hope this helps you sort out the pros and cons. it sounds like you are proceeding on the right path with the pain specialist who will want new images of your spine, I am sure of it. he or she can best evaluate your nexT step,aside from weight loss which is very important. good luck to you. take care, be well, and stay well.

:hug::hug:
Sloane

hello hibiki
 

Surgery should be the last option. Your quality of life is what is important. If this is putting you into the position you can do nothing, then maybe you need to start an investigation with a good neruologist. I am fused C3-7 after a failed first surgery at C6-7. My surgery worked for me, and it was worth all I had to go through to get to this point. Your idea of weight loss is a good one too. I didn't have this second surgery until I had lost 65 pounds, and got my weight where I should be. I did that to make the second surgery a little easier to go through. I was terrified of another failure so I did all I could for myself, and did the homework about my condition, and the neurologists before I went ahead. You can loose the weight, and it will help you with what ever decision you make about your back. I couldn't excersise eithor, and I would try to help you with that. I know from your post you are in some terrible pain. You may also try a pain specialist. I had one before my second surgery. He kept me going for 6 years, until we discovered I continued to degenerate in my spine. I do have degenerative disk disease, and joint disease. In my case I had no choice about the surgery as the pain specialist couldn't control my pain anymore and he was the one who got me to a new neurologist after looking at my MRI. Your quality of life is whats important. If you are to that point, please go ahead and look for a good neurosurgeon. Sometimes you can get a name from Neruo talk for what state you are in. I do wish you all the best. If you have a question, or if I can do anything for you, please tap back. Lots of people have knowledge on readings of your tests too. take care:hug: ginnie

Hibiki, You mentioned at one point you would lay on your side and cry. I had reached that point over 5 years ago. If I moved when laying down, it was more like screams, along with the tears. I had wanted to go to a orthopaedic surgeon (specializing spine surgery), but it would take a couple of months to get to see him and couldn't wait any longer. (My MRi showed degenerating disc disease, along with spinal cord narrowing, vertabrae problems, etc.; but didn't show the culprit that was causing the screams. I had surgery at Rush Medical Center in Chicago. My vertabrae was crushing a major nerve. The surgeon said he had never seen such a raw red angry nerve before. I am still in a lot of pain; but no longer screaming.

I did develop periphereal neuropathy PN. Also, am under the care of Pain Management because I still have severe pain. Was the surgery a success??? Hard to say how much worse off I might have been. I was told I still had a lot of issues; but did have L4-5 fused which took the pressure off the "red angry nerve" and a laminectomy (removed some of the lamina)to allow more space for the spinal cord which was narrowing. Had I not had the surgery, i think I would be even worse off. "Failed Back surgery" to some degree "yes"; just don't know how much worse off I would have been if I hadn't done it. Wishing you the best in whatever direction you choose.

The Pain Specialist will probably do a series of injections, along with meds for the pain. This of course, will not change any of your issues; but might help to handle the pain. It really is a hard call.

Hi ~ First, you definitely need another MRI with and without contrast material. You need to know exactly what's going on.

The ONLY reason for spinal surgery is cauda equina (loss of bladder & bowel function) or the possibility of permanent nerve damage. Plus if the spinal cord is being impinged, you'd need surgery too! Surgery for herniations/bulges isn't the best idea because you're not guaranteed that the pain will be relieved. Many times the pain is WORSE after surgery! Plus surgery increases the chance that the levels above & below the surgery site will fail.

I agree with Doc Smith --- I've had 2 open spinal surgeries, and I'm worse now than I was before! I had these before the internet, so I couldn't do alot of research. Since then, I've had surgeons say they wouldn't touch me, as things would probably be worse after surgery.

I wish you the very best. Make sure you do your homework & research your condition thoroughly!! But don't jump into surgery. It should be a last resort. God bless & take care. Hugs, Lee

Hi hibiki
 

Leesa was right about one important thing. After my first fusion, I did indeed have trouble with the vertrebre above and below the fusion site. I was not informed of this additional trouble, it was known however at the time of my first fusion. I had no option in my case as I risked being paralized. Nerves were involved, due to deterieration. Do all you can to aviod the surgery if possible. I did finally get wonderful results, but it was very difficult to go through that second surgery. Please do all your homework and get that MRI to find out exactly what is going on. I wish you all the best. ginnie

hello


no
no
no
no
no
you went 6 years and thank you system
for jumping right on in SHAME ON THOSE WHO TOOK THE OATH AND ABANDONED IT FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH REASONS
you have nothing but time
do ALL your HOMEWORK
TALK TO THOSE WHO HAVE HAD WHAT IS RECOMMEND
WHAT DOCTORS WANT TO CUT
NO SO QUICK!

Hi eva/leesa/ thoses considering surgery
 

I think the reason the neuro surgeon didn't do all the surgery the first time is because I had no insurance. It would have been more involved, and it would cost more. Therefor he only did what he had to, to prevent me from being paralized. He did not address the other severe problems in my neck, never told me. Thats why there was a six year break. I didn't know any better as I didn't have my records at the time. The pain specialist could see what was really happening when he did a Katamine infusion with the xray guilding the needle. He realized something bad was happening and got me the top neuro surgeon in our area. The first guy in my opinion was negligent in every senseof the word. I learned to research after that, and thats what I try to tell people who think about having surgery. It sure was no bed of roses. ginnie

Hi, Hibiki. Your post really caught my eye when I saw that you are having L4-L5 issues. I see a Dr. at a pain mgmt. clinic on the 27th for a 2nd opinion on whether I need a surgery in this region. In my case it all began about a year ago when I was standing in the kitchen bragging about how strong & well my legs felt after power walking our 65 lb. dog 4 miles per hour per day for 3 years. Told him I wanted to take up kickboxing & he said that he didn't think I could get my leg high enough. When I showed him that I could he caught my right heel while it was in the air & I hit the tile kitchen floor. Funny - NOT! Not long afterward, I began having what my GP thought was a pirifomis muscle issue in both legs, went to a ortho who took xrays, sent me to P/T & everything was better for a couple of months. I then began having nerve spasms in both legs, they felt really tired, & began having lower back pain which ran down the back outside of my right leg into my foot. I "dealt" with it as long as I could, went to see GP again who sent me to an orthopedist who said I was "textbook" herniated disc. The MRI that he sent me for shows L4-L5 grade I degenerative subluxation with bulge, annular tear & prominent facet arthropathy, mass effect on the right lateral recess nerve root & crowding of the left. Possibly stress injury of the pedicle & pars region of L5 also.

As you were at one time, I am uninsured. I am 52 years young. Working without a net, i.e. no insurance, has now come round to literally kick me in the behind. I have had cervical problems since the late 80's (3 car wrecks in 5 years) with degenerative disc disease. A neurosurgeon I saw at that time said that I would eventually need surgery on my neck but at that time I had a set of 3 epidurals and they worked wonders for years, but have worn off years ago. I was in excruciating pain from each epidural for a day - felt as if half of my head would explode - then on the 3rd day I was totally drained from the pain the day before.

I am torn too as to whether surgery would be an option for my lumbar problem...not liking the idea of epidurals either. What I am certain of is that I cannot go on like I am. Not sure if I want to put a bandaid on the pain and "make do" or take a chance on fixing the issue that is causing the pain.