Hard lump post root canal retreatment
 

Hey there,

I've been searching around the internet trying to find an answer to my problems, but can't find much about it. Hoping someone on here can help me.

I had a root canal on #14 in 08/11, and around 12/11 I noticed that there was some pain above the tooth, but I couldn't tell if it was coming from my sinuses or from my tooth, and I didn't do anything about it thinking my immune system will take care of it. It wasn't until 05/12 that I actually stuck my finger up in my mouth where I had the pain and I noticed there was a very hard, marble sized lump. I immediately called my dentist, who referred me to an endodontist. During the root canal retreatment he found a missed canal, and said that was the source of the infection, and now that the source of the infection had been cleaned the infection should go away, and over time the bump will disappear too. He also put me on antibiotics. The retreatment was done 4 days ago, and my last day of antibiotics is tomorrow. The problem is the bump is still as large and painful as before. I've never had any drainage into my mouth, and the bump is quite firm to the touch. It's incredibly tender to the touch.

My questions are:

Do I still have an active infection, and do I need to go on another round of antibiotics or call my dentist for further treatment (apico)?

Why is the bump in my mouth so hard, as opposed to pus filled/pimple like?

I'm concerned that after a root canal retreatment, and a full course of antibiotics, there is no change in the size or pain of the bump.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Hi cinnamongym,

I am re posting a thread that I wrote that explains what a root canal is and why the tooth remains infected irrelevant of the re treatment, including an apicoectomy.

But first let me address what that hard lump is..... since it is not draining, it is most likely a cyst that has formed in the bone and grown into the hard tissue. This is seen frequently with root canaled teeth because it is caused by the bacteria that has been residing in your root canaled tooth. Not just from the "missed canal", but from the microscopic canals that cannot be cleaned out. So the re treatment may have removed some dead nerve material from the missed canal, but it did nothing to access the microscopic ones. Therefore, the tooth will continue to be infected. An apicoectomy is a surgical root canal, it accomplishes the same thing that a re treatment does with the exception that the surgeon physically goes in and removes the cyst. One problem with this is... those microscopic canals are not accessible and they will continue to harbor infectious bacteria which will continue to proliferate and form cysts like you have now. Perhaps the biggest concern to be aware of is that the infection can spread to your sinuses or further. Also, what is this infected tooth doing to your immune system?

Here is that other thread .... gives very explicit information...

Root Canal Therapy..... What is it really???

A lengthy article, but well worth the read if you want to be well informed. It references experts such as Dr Weston Price, a Cleveland dentist who authored the book entitled Nutrition and Physical Degeneration and founded the Weston Price Foundation. He also wrote a textbook on root canals in 1922 which continues to upset the mindset of the ADA and others who advocate root canal therapy. Also, Dr Hal Huggins a Colorado dentist who is world renowned for his relentless efforts in public awareness about the toxicity of mercury fillings, etc. Just to name a few....

http://tuberose.com/Root_Canals.html

Here is just a tiny excerpt from the above site......

>>>>Leave the root canal or cavitation in the body, and there is the potential of creating an unwanted autoimmune or degenerative disease that could be life threatening. Toxins and bacteria can both leak from these contamination sites wreaking havoc with a person’s cardiovascular, endocrine, nervous and immune systems. The public needs to be informed, so they can make educated choices in the trade-off between toxic convenience and health.>>>>

>>>Shouldn’t we question the wisdom of supplying a haven for these microbes so close to our brain and circulatory system? Does this information validate the claims of “sterile” root canals? Dentists claim they can “sterilize” the tooth before forcing the gutta percha wax down into the canal. Perhaps they can sterilize a column of air in the center of the tooth, but is that really where the problem is? Bacteria wandering out of the dentinal tubules is what Price was finding, and what we were finding in the crushed tooth samples. But the problem doesn't end there. Huggins tested blood samples adjacent to the removed <root canaled> teeth and analyzed them for the presence of anaerobic bacteria. Approximately 400 percent more bacteria were found in the blood surrounding the root canal tooth than were in the tooth itself. It seems that the tooth is the incubator. The periodontal ligament supplies more food, therefore higher concentration of bacteria. But the highest pathological growth was in the bone surrounding the dead tooth. Looking at bacterial needs, there is a smorgasbord of bacterial nutrients present in the bone. This explains the tremendous increase in bacterial concentration in the blood surrounding the root canal tooth. Try sterilizing that volume of bone.>>>


Bryanna


Quote

Thanks for your quick reply.

If I go the route of tooth extraction, do I still need to have the cyst removed, or will it go away on it's own?

Also, is tenderness to the touch normal, or is that a sign that the infection is still present?

Hi cinnamongym
 

It does sound to me like the infection is still there in your mouth. Please read that article on Root Cannals. I had several teeth removed, rather than keeping infections in my mouth. ginnie

Hi cinnamongym,

If you have the tooth removed, yes, the cyst would also be removed at that time. Access to the cyst is easiest when removing the tooth because it is actually partially attached to the tooth.

Tenderness in that area is indicative of pressure from the inflammation relative to the infection.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear.... I wish I had more positive news. The source of your problem is the tooth... the infection will be present as long as you have that tooth.

In the dental profession it is common knowledge that root canals and apicoectomies are done in an attempt to "retain" the tooth for an undetermined amount of time. The word "save" is often misrepresented when referencing either of these procedures because it simply means to "retain" not "cure".

Please keep us posted ....
Bryanna

I'm heading to the dentist later today, and am interested to see what he has to say. I don't mind getting the tooth extracted, it's just frustrating after paying for 2 root canals now.

I just have one more question though, around the same time my infection started to hurt I noticed a lot of blood in my nose when I blow it. It never bleeds like a nosebleed, but there's always dried blood in there. Could that be related?

Hi cinnamongym,

Infections in the upper posterior teeth can spread to the sinus. In fact, that is one of the major risks associated with doing root canal therapy and/or apicoectomies in these teeth.

When you get a chance... please send us a note about how things went today at the dentist.

Bryanna



drs.QUOTE=cinnamongym;888557]I'm heading to the dentist later today, and am interested to see what he has to say. I don't mind getting the tooth extracted, it's just frustrating after paying for 2 root canals now.

I just have one more question though, around the same time my infection started to hurt I noticed a lot of blood in my nose when I blow it. It never bleeds like a nosebleed, but there's always dried blood in there. Could that be related?[/QUOTE]

Hello cinnamongym
 

How did the dentist go today.? I am sorry you put the money into the RC twice. I won't do that again either. Hope the appt. turned out OK and that you got the tooth and infection taken care of. ginnie

I went to my regular dentist to get the permanent filling, and he immediately called my endodontist and told me to go back there immediately. They did a CT scan and said I need to have the cyst/infection removed. I assume that's an apico? I haven't seen the CT images, so I don't know how far the infection has spread, but he said I will get a CD with my images next week.

Cinnamongym,

There is a cyst and infection beyond the root of the tooth because the infection inside of the tooth has proliferated into the bone. The apico will not cure this infection because the source of the infection lives within the microscopic canals that are not accessible. Therefore the cyst will return, the infection will spread and the jawbone will continue to deteriorate. What you will be left with is a large necrotic opening in your jawbone that cannot be repaired. Not to mention the systemic consequences.

Your situation is SO commonly seen with root canaled teeth because there is NO treatment to rid the tooth of the infection.

I hope you give serious consideration to your options.

Bryanna

Cinnamongym,
I was just wondering the outcome of your situation and what you/the dentist decided to do. I have what sounds like a similar situation after a root canal I had a year ago.
Thanks.

Hi cinnamongym
 

Hi, and sorry you had trouble with the RC. Usually I go to Bryanna for help, but in this case, I kinda know what is going on. re-treatment of an infected tooth, for most part does not work. You may retain the tooth longer, but that infection is still there. If it is painful, and hurts at all, this is a sign that it does not bode well for the tooth. The truth is RC's extend the life of a tooth, but really never get rid of the infection. Those small cannals they talk about, can never fully be cleaned out and that infection is left in there even with re-treatment. For me, I turned down two RC's altogether, as I have immune problems to begin with. The upper jaw is so close to sinus, and the brain, I did not want to take any chances. Post to Bryanna, she has a much better explaination of the "medical" side of it. Dentists, or perodentists, make alot of money on this proceedure for the most part that does not work. doing it twice is twice the money, and the tooth is still a problem. I got a great little partial, works great, end of problem. I do wish you all the best in what ever you choose to do. ginnie :hug:

Hi ginnie,

Thanks for posting this .... your explanation of the chronic infection is very accurate.

You know of my background and that I am in the dental profession for over 30 yrs which means I have dealt with thousands of dental patients. I am always disheartened when a patient has been misinformed about a procedure because I believe it is unethical for dentists to misguide their patients who they know are trusting their word. Telling a patient that the root canal treatment is going to "cure" their infected tooth is totally false. As I have explained here numerous times and you have concurred, the procedure is done to "retain" an infected tooth.... not cure it. I wish there was a miracle procedure that could cure the infection..... but there just isn't one.

There are a lot of people walking around with medical conditions that are inflammatory related..... many of them have one or two things in common, root canaled teeth and/or periodontal disease. The body cannot and will not tolerate constant inflammation and infection.... the body will get sick.

It took many years for the dental profession to outwardly admit the systemic health risks associated with periodontal disease. The push came from the medical profession repetitively stating in their journals to "inform the patient" of this life threatening disease. Once the dental profession realized they had the backing of the medical profession and could profit off of this information, they started to be more pro active in informing their patients about the disease. The down side with informing patients about root canal therapy is that this procedure happens to already be the most profitable one and since it can be done several times on one tooth.... the money to be earned is unbelievable. Most dentists are also leery of informing their patients about the health risks of root canal treatment because many of their patients have already been "sold" on having them in the past. So how does a dentist now go back on his original sales pitch and tell a patient this can make them sick??

Due to the increase in public awareness regarding dental implants ...as well as the profits to be made with doing the implants, it is only a matter of time before all dentists start to share some of the information with their patients about the systemic health risks associated with "retaining" infected teeth. I personally know of some and there are others out there, who are attempting to work this into their practices now.... but it will be very slow and the information will be a bit misconstrued or indecisive as the dentists are afraid to tell the patient too much for fear of legal repercussions pertaining to past treatment which may already have negatively impacted their patients health.

It's a huge undertaking to now try and make good on something that has been so bad, especially when there is no way to remedy the damage that has already been done. I am hopeful that we can turn this around and that I will see this done in my lifetime!

Ginnie.... thanks for all of your thoughtful posts here. I know you are in a whirlwind of your own with selling and moving..... but you're always willing to come here and give us a little piece of yourself. Thanks so much for all that you do.........

Bryanna

Hi Bryanna
 

I am glad I explained it correctly. People really are misinformed alot, and spend so much money, only to loose the teeth. I have one RC tooth left in lower right Jaw. After I move, I am going to have it taken out, even though I have no real problems with it right now. I have 5 auto immune problems, and lots and lots of inflamation. Want to be rid of it to help my body. Going to see a Physiasist, who works with the whole body. She asked about my teeth. Yes! cared enough about my whole body. will do this as soon as my life settles down to a major airport....ha ha ha. ginnie

FAO Bryanna
 

Hello,

I know this thread is a couple of months old but hoping you can advise.
I had a severe tooth infection in early 2010 which resulted in root canal treatment. Before the procedure a hard lump appeared in the bone above the tooth. When RCT was performed the endodontist said the lump was caused by the infection. After the treatment the lump decreased in size slightly but never completely disappeared. After reading a couple of threads about this issue I now know this is a cyst and am considering having the tooth removed.
So my question is - does the cyst come out at the time of extraction or is it a bit more involved? Also - this bugger tooth is first pre-molar so very visible when i smile - would it still be possible to have an implant as a replacement?

Many thanks in advance.

I was in a serious car accident in May. Ever since accident my teeth have been killing me. I went to the dentist and he did a full exam. I had 2 cracked teeth and my 2 front teeth have hairline cracks. He said it could takes months for the pain to go away. It has been 6 months and my mouth still aches every day. Has any body else been through this?

Hi BadToothFairy,

The lump above the tooth is called a fistula. This occurs when the infection inside of the tooth breaks through the tooth into the jawbone and continues to travel through the gum tissue. A cyst will form in the bone as this infection spreads. The cyst will be removed at the time of the extraction. However, there will be a hole in the bone where the cyst is and depending on the size of the opening and the health of the bone, the dentist may place bone graft material in that hole to encourage new bone to form there.

Replacing this tooth with a dental implant is questionable due to the severe infection and deterioration of the bone. If the bone heals well and is healthy enough to hold an implant then the implant my be a viable option. Otherwise you would be looking at either a removable partial denture or a multi unit bridge.

The sooner this tooth is removed, the better the prognosis in the future.

Bryanna

rolltide,

I am sorry to hear about your car accident. I hope you are okay otherwise.!

I would suggest having a panorex xray and or a dental ct scan to see how deep the fractures are in those teeth and to rule out infection in the bone. All too often injured teeth die due to the trauma and they need to be monitored especially if they are still hurting you after 6 months. If these teeth have died, the sooner you deal with it the better the long term outcome.

Your options would be to root canal them or remove them. Root canaling them means to spend a lot of money on rc therapy and crowns only to retain infected teeth for an undisclosed amount of time which will eventually need to be removed anyway. Removing them without doing the root canal therapy gives you a more positive outlook on the success of dental implants because there would be no concern about long standing infection interfering with the integration of the implants. You could also remove them and have a multi unit permanent bridge made or a removable partial denture. All of this would need to be discussed with your dentist.

First have the scans done ...........

Bryanna

Hi Cinnamongym,

I'm exactly in your situation. Root canal done twice, hard lump still there after 6 days of antibiotics.
Did you end up extracting that tooth? Is that lump gone?

Thanks.
Mike