Copper or B1-thiamin deficiency/ toxicity?
 

Hello everyone,
Today I went to a new neuromuscular dr. who I have been waiting to see.
I have been to 3 other neurologists, tested and spinal tapped, MRI's of my whole spine and thought there was nothing left to check. He found that I hadn't had B1 or copper checked yet. Anyone have experience with either of those being an issue?

so far my only abnormal results were:
b6 was elevated
ferritin low at 10.7 range is supposed to be 11.0-306.8
b-12 perfect

May I ask....??? what is perfect B12? To your doctor?

If he uses the old ranges from the labs that go down to 200 ...that is not good.

You should be at 400pg/ml at least, and hopefully better.
Do you have your results in numbers?

I saw on the TOS board you have a stiff neck?

I'd try an inexpensive but very good product to relieve muscle spasms, reduce pain, and improve circulation to the body parts affected.

http://www.amazon.com/Morton-Epsom-L...n+epsom+lotion

This is also at WalMarts and Walgreens...but not all local stores have it yet, as it is new.

Many of us on NT use it...on PN, MS, etc. It is really relaxing and helpful. A fingertip's amount on each side of your neck nightly might show you improvement. Some people who work out alot get very low in magnesium, and this lotion provides it thru the skin. It is actually better than magnesium supplements because they cannot get thru areas where blood flow is poor.

This lotion works well also applied to the inner wrists and inner arms at night. It gets absorbed well thru the thin skin there.
But I'd start with the neck, and apply it under your ears down to your collarbones.

I move the placement around each day because I find it doesn't always need application to the same area daily.

Blood work for magnesium is not very helpful except for very very low or very very high results. The middle range does not reflect what is in the tissues much at all.

MS people sometimes have very low copper. Some of our MS posters have mentioned that their MS doctor tests for it.

Your ferritin is not super low...many young women can be lower if their periods are heavy.

We have had 2 people on PN with low copper but they were using medications that could block its absorption... acid blocking drugs for heartburn.

Do the magnesium lotion for a couple of weeks...see how that goes. It is very inexpensive...much less than most medical tests and treatments, and can bring surprisingly wonderful results and relief.

Hello Mrs. D,
My B12 was 841. I supplement with it regularly.

I also take magnesium baths which are helpful. I have the cream and only tried it twice. Does it take a while to start working? I guess I was expecting some instant relief. I usually have to keep reheating a hot pack all day to keep my shoulders and neck from hurting and spasming.

I don't take any medications regularly that could inhibit absorption for iron or copper. I don't even take B6, so I don't know why thats elevated. I wonder if thats why I have PN.

Exactly how high is your B6?

High B6 neuropathy is very rare.

I have to caution you about those heating treatments.

My chiropractor explained to me that 10min tops for any heat treatments. Heat activates nerves and makes nerve pain worse. Heat will have a seemingly irritant effect and distract from the deeper pain, which will mount the more you use heat, and the pain will last all day then.

There is not very much muscle in the neck. I'd stop the heat treatments and see what happens. Large muscles can absorb some heat, but in the neck? It is mostly nerves and tendons there.

There is a form of neuropathy called RSD (CRPS) and it responds to heat, and does not like cold. So you should investigate RSD as a possible chronic pain cause.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/forum21.html

You should see results with the Morton's lotion within days.
If you continue heat however, there may not be much response.

There is B6 in your food if you eat fortified things like cereal and pasta and bread. Most meat protein contains B6.

The actual B6 papers, that were at one time hitting PubMed were from massive use of 500mg or more a day for years. This at one time was a treatment for PMS in women. It is no longer used. The only current high B6ers I've seen were kids in athletics in school where coaches were pushing it. I met a woman whose daughter was injured in a freak accident ...she was in the backseat of a car which ran over a piece of metal in the road, which flew up under the car and pierced her thru the torso! It luckily missed vital organs, but her muscles were very damaged and her mother discussed it with me. Her swimming coach had her on massive doses of B6! I put a stop to that quickly!

B6 in most supplements and food is pyridoxine and that is inactive. It is activated in the liver by pyridoxal kinase to P5P. If you are low in B2 (riboflavin), then you are not activating what you eat. B2 is in the cofactor enzyme to activate B6. This may hang around and therefore test high.
Most people who test out of range in blood work, have serum tests and these reflect B6 not in tissues. When looking at energy drink content (5 hr energy) or food labels, and removing pyridoxine intake their subsequent tests come down.
Keep in mind that the ranges were determined before food fortification and with the subject not using supplements. Use of any supplement being consumed and not stopped when tested may result in a false elevated reading.

So stop that heat treatment for a while...and see what happens.
Your B12 is adequate, so you don't need further supplements there. If you did not stop your B12 when you were tested, your result may be falsely elevated too.

Too much Vitamin B6 is not good for a CMTer. The supplements are the problem. There is plenty in the foods that are fortified.

According to http://nutritiondata.self.com/, lots of dry cereals are high in B6. Also some fruit-flavored drinks, "formulated bars", several different types of peppers, paprika, chili powder, some margarine-like vegetable oil spreads.
Ron

I eat gluten free and whole foods so I wonder where its coming from. I eat a lot of pistachio nuts though. I can't believe that would cause it to be elevated though. Even the dr. noticed and I think thats why he ordered b-1 and copper tests. Maybe he has some idea?? Wish I did.

If you are just eating whole foods, I wouldn't worry about your B6. IMHO, you are not going to OD on any vitamins or minerals from eating whole foods, unless maybe you are eating a huge quantity of one food.
Ron