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How long until paresthesias resolve?
Hello, time to share my scary story, if I may. :) I have unilateral sole paresthesia and ulnar nerve related paresthesia (left side), 4 months after waking up to reality and not letting alcohol destroy my sense of self-reliance and physique anymore.
I am wondering how long how long until these paresthesias resolve? I have no frank weakness, so it seems that only the sensory nerves are affected for now. God willing. This tingling was quite pronounced with sudden onset on the night of April 3 - tingling in left sole. 2 hours later, tingling in left hand - ulnar nerve (since smallest finger and the one next to it on LS affected). The hand tingling disappeared on certain postures with left forearm (rotation of left hand to palm up position and resting forearm in lap). Minutes later, felt tingling around left corner of mouth for about 6 minutes, then the sensation fully disappeared. Right thumb vaguely felt tingly, but resolved very quickly. Right big toe felt tingly 3 hours after tingling in left sole commenced. Hours after ulnar nerve impairment, left hand radial nerve involved - all of back of left hand tingling (pins/needles). Immediately commenced 400mg vit B1 (@ 9.30PM, April 3). This in addition to vitamin regimen: 10,000iu vit A, 1500mg Magnesium Vit B3 Vit B6 and B 12 Choline Inositol Vit C Chewable calcium 2000iu Vit D Midnight, April 3 -4: right toe sensation resolved; right hand again normal. Symptoms can be exacerbated by jiggling legs on points of toes from seated position (the things we do when we get paranoid, yes, yes...). Went to sleep and awoke 4 hours later, only mild paresthesia persistent on back of left hand. No recurrence of right side paresthesias. Personal/Drinking History: ------------------------- Discharged from Special Forces, 2011 (drank one shot about 5 times in my life before that time). SF taught me to drink. Was extremely fit, lean and - weighed in at 220 pounds. Changes in muscle mass noticed Feb 2014, after binge session. When ceased drinking, physique returned to normal in 2 weeks. Bodyweight down to 183 pounds from 220 by Aug 2014. When ceased drinking for a month, body-weight returned very rapidly. Relapsed into drinking (foolish, yes. I thought I could "manage" it and didnt see IT was managing me). Insomnia October 25-31, 2014 lasted 5 days Insomnia recurred and persisted thru Nov 1-5, 2014. Cessation of alcohol: Nov 31, 2014. Dec 2014 - Noticed after gym work that "pumps" were not as big. Due to less muscle mass, not as defined. Pumps and psychical appearance of upper body, arms seems to change on daily or weekly basis - with glimpses of past form. More fatty deposits noticed. (Diagnosed as myopathy - acute form overlaying chronic form. Told to give it 3 to 4 months to regain lean mass. Fat explained as "trapping radicals and toxins in body" by naturopath ...). Dec 31 - Jan 2, night time onset of left leg sciatic nerve paresthesia - VERY mild sense of warmth in back of thigh; restless feet that night, chronic insomnia begins. Awake and feeling "wired" after only 3 or 4 hours sleep. Sitting at computer, warmth in leg, very very mild sense of tingling left sole. Coerced myself into drinking 3 glasses of wine at birthday party Feb 20, 2015 - no change to insomnia. (GABA receptors affected). Feb/Mar 2015 - tachycardia, sense of being very awake or hyperactive - resolved very quickly once commenced Magnesium and vitamin regimen detailed above (WITHOUT B1). This marked protracted withdrawal/recovery phase. Feb 2015, two incidences. days apart, of awaking with left arm and hand tingling mildly, Resolved very quickly on getting out of bed and moving. Insomnia regularly persistent until March, 2015 - commenced that above vitamin and mineral schedule. Drank heavily from Dec 23, 2011 to Nov 27, 2014. Cessation on Nov 31, 2014. 3 wine relapse on Feb 15, 2015. Currently, paresthesias are nowhere near as pronounced as they were on Apr 3. Better after light nap, seem to be worse on waking after deep sleep. Seems to change on an hourly basis, or less than that - tingling more definite some minutes; followed by an almost complete absence of tingling for other minutes. I estimate from my records that I purchased some 212 bottles of slow death, and then drank them at a rate of better than one a week for almost 3 years at a median rate of 4.29 standard drinks per day. (Some days were double or triple that, with some rare months of abstinence). After such idiocy, if a few pins and needles is all I get, then I am more blessed than I pretty much deserve to be. And you know... It's the roadblocks that we avoid, that could have made all the difference... my own examples include being called out by my dear lady on being drunk and pretending not to be (I kept it from her and the rest of the human race). (Thank God for her Sagittarian bluntness)... And bicycling home with a bottle and for noooo reason, (handlebars seemed to lock up on a STRAIGHT road) coming off, and breaking the bottle, and getting soaked in aldehyde stinking death. There is no safe amount of alcohol. It would be classified as a class A substance these days, if it were recently developed. |
Love the attention to detail....wish I had a solid answer for you but it is different for everyone.
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Hi Dubinin
Welcome to NeuroTalk :). I am in remission (I can not yet say recovered) from alcohol addiction. My paresthesia was relatively mild (in my hands) and has pretty much resolved since I stopped drinking (a couple of years ago, with some minor lapses since then, none recently). In my experience resisting urges to drink does get easier with time and I hope that the same will be the case for you. |
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I'm glad your paresthesias were mild. I've never experienced anything like that in my life. Since that party where I conned myself and said "no, nothing bad will happen," I've been completely off of it. And just reading exactly what alcohol does (there is nowhere near enough public ed - it is all focused on tobacco) keeps me sober. I enjoy my life and my fitness much too much, and will not destroy my life anymore. Thank you for your great words of support. Paresthesias have really tamed down in the 6 days since they occurred. But I will post an update now. Who knows who might be helped some day :) |
UPDATE: 6 days after paresthesias kicked my butt (almost to the hour)
Paresthesias have greatly reduced. Some slight tremor present on partial exertion - fully tense arm = no tremor. Fully relaxed - no tremor. Slight tension and slight tremor visible, especially when rotating hand from palm-down palm-up. Woke up yesterday (4.5 days after onset of paresthesias) without any paresthesias. Buttt, sitting at computer for a short time elicited left sole paresthesia, and sense of warmth in right hamstring (sciatic nerve). Today, managed to barbell curl 95 pounds (43 kg) in 2 sets - 10 reps, 4 minute rest, 12 reps. Completed press ups with feet elevated: 60, 50, 50, 40. Began lunges, completed 22 then my dear lady messaged :) And I will only build up from this. I could not give a flying freak what tries to stop me. Feel some overall fatigue and a little heaviness in left leg compared to right. Apart from that, we're rolling free. Eating whole foods, avoiding fats except for "good" fats - olive oil, coconut oil, avocado, nuts in small hits. Raw snow peas, baby corn, bell peppers, chicken poached (sorry to vegetarians). (Of course this all hit at Easter, at least it was where I am currently situated. And so there are a few delicious things staring at me with their puerile little faces, through plastic holiday windows in boxes, but alas - they shall wait to be eaten some other day!) Using a protein supplement (also contains B1, etc and choline). Always have plenty of water when eating protein - even when drinking a protein shake. Drinking plenty of water in a day. Drinking anti-oxidant teas (green tea, mint tea; and a blend of paprika, cayenne, black pepper, thyme, oregano- hello overgrown herb garden, in my mouth!) Absolutely starving lately. I did crave chocolate and chips through November 2014 to February 2015. That has died off (there is an actual physiological phenomenon that causes this as a result of withdrawal). No ascites, no obvious signs of hepatic distress; no splenomegaly. Kidney function normal (did have some morning urinary trouble expelling until February). Okay then. Now to eat. :) Thank God... I am so so lucky... I thought it was all harmless fun. I didn't realize I was in deep. Who knows? If I live properly, as I'm intended to do, and eat properly, etc., I could maybe avoid latter life complications from these past episodes of alcohol abuse. If you're going through anything like this, then you CAN push through! |
Dubinin, your "eating well" plan looks pretty good to me.
This is just a thought but maybe add some slow-release (low GI) carbohydrate foods to it - things like brown rice and whole-grain bread products. |
Welcome Dubinin. :Wave-Hello:
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I notice you listed niacin in your supplement list.
If you are taking real niacin ...that can cause skin paresthesias and tingling flushing etc. Niacin in the form of niacinamide does not cause this reaction. |
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Your signature is intriguing and it reminds me of a scene from the 1968 version of Flowers for Algernon. :) |
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I am glad to say that I'm taking niacinamide forms :) |
Update:
========= I noticed some muscle wastage across upper pecs, forearms, biceps, which has been arrested by B1 incrementation. Added iron on noticing some breathlessness after running. Added zinc and drinkable (non acidic) vit C. Right then... Past three days, very very few paresthesias. Friday - no paresthesias, but incredibly fatigued. Longest sleep in months, woke up to wanting more sleep. Saturday, Felt about 50% of the degree of yesterday's fatigue. Managed to do some light runs. Felt like hell afterwards. did a bodyweight circuit, 100 lunges in 6 minutes ( 40, rest, 40, rest, 20) made my legs feel like lead. Then followed up with 30 minute stationary bike cardio dealy 4 hours after that. Sunday, A lot less fatigue, some vague tingling in left sole, very light "cobweb" feeling back of right hand. Very brief 5th cranial nerve region feeling of being touched by a ghost (on cheek). In the middle of completing a two hour work out. Belated Happy Easter to Ukrainian people and Egyptian people, and to all and sundry who observe the orthodox calendar. Belated Belated Happy Easter to all who observed the imperialist calendar a week ago. :) |
Update: April 27, 2015
Some days I am symptom-free. Other days, left sole paresthesia (especially after sitting with some compression of sciatic nerve in the site of hamstring), right ulnar nerve paresthesia (numbness and tingling of right two smallest fingers) last for hours. Hanging right arm by my side relieves the odd sensation. Sitting on a chair other than the one I am in now relieves left sole tingling to some degree.
Chronic myopathy was also present (prior to paresthesia onset of April 3). Glad to say that this situation is now resolving with muscle mass returning to left biceps and muscles of the forearm. (Noticeable bilateral loss of muscle from quadriceps, gluteus; gastrocnemius and anterior tibialis - with right side more affected). Pectoralis major: noticed bilateral loss of muscle in the course of a week, which is now resolving. Persisting with thiamine (and all other vitamins as listed earlier in this post). I'm glad to say that, generally, there is nothing new to report, in terms of symptom progression. Very mild compared to the first two weeks, if present at all. Noted in journal (sorry, exact publication forgotten) that very marked muscle loss and paresthesias including sensory loss and depressed deep tendon reflexes slowly resolved (after 15 months, with 6-week inpatient hospitalization of pt. Hx of alcohol abuse). The pt was in a far worse state than I am in. Considering my condition to really be dry beri beri with chronic myopathy already present. Romberg's sign not present. Tinel's sign present three days ago. Cannot seem to make it occur again. No liver signs at present - with no palmar erythema, ascites or abdominal swelling; no obvious jaundice of skin. No kidney signs. No signs of hypogonadism or hyperestrogenism. Apparent fat deposition in places where muscle atrophied seems consistent with myopathy. Only concern: thiamine malabsorption is present in cases of liver disease. So it is important to regularly check thiamine to ensure correct storage and phosphatization. Sudden reduction of paresthesias and consistent levels of paresthesias with regular absence of symptoms seems to very very generally indicate that liver function is within normal limits. Biggest concern right now - when will these tingling sensations get lost? Time, time, time. Time is so narcissistic. This is now 3 weeks and 4 days after initial and rampant onset. Can jog upstairs, can exercise (on good days) for 3 hours, can carry load in storming conditions for two hours. (Walking, jogging elicits tingling in both soles, not very different from just normal sensations of having "used" my feet). Pushups are easier. A pump (physiological engorgement of muscles with blood through exercise) is easier to elicit now. Was almost absent before, which was curiously odd. Sleep is easier to come by these days. But for the last three nights I have been giving a "running commentary" in my dreams, which is very exhausting. A lady in one dream was gathering flowers, or something, from a garden bed. And there was I hovering in the dreamscape ether above her, and narrating the scene. Very odd. But these things have happened to me before and always abate. I work with a lot of people for long hours in a day and I often go to bed exhausted without having first properly unwound. So not unusual I suppose if I continue to analyze and provide narratives on the other side of life. Um. That's all, I guess. Rough notes only. I am tired today. (Which is a good sign in this case). |
Low grade and continual paresthesias - L sole, L middle fingers, Right smallest fingertips. No signs on waking. Seemed to be onsetting at about the same time every night. Possibly onsetting later and later as the weeks roll on.
Arms are coming back to old form. Upper legs and especially left calf show some muscle loss. Upper legs- muscle loss above outside knee joint. Calves and anterior tibialis both legs show signs of atrophy. Expect they will suddenly re-appear just as my arms re-appeared. No strength loss. Have commenced intensive exercise for legs to promote (re)growth by stimulating hypertrophy pathways. Maintaining vitamin regimen with addition of 1000IU Vitamin E daily in two doses. Most aggravating and troubling part of this - persistence of paresthesias, even though not as intense as April 3. And noticeable loss of muscle. Tone is okay, now. Some flaccidity before. Better tone now. Muscle loss seems to happen very quickly, and comes back very quickly - I noticed this pattern a while ago during main part of the fight with myopathy. Some abnormal sense of pounding in extremities - toes, esp fingers, when vigorously used - including trying to play guitar earlier. Twitches in right upper pec and right tricep. (Acute myopathy -dx approx Feb 2014. Chronic myopathy from August 2014 - very approximately). |
Your notes are insightful...thought you should know. Helpful to others, keep at it.
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Dubinin... Please don't use iron products unless you have tested low in iron at the doctor's office. Excess iron in males, has been linked to heart disease and attacks.
And to make things better for your muscles and nerves, magnesium may help. SlowMag, one twice a day, is good to fix low levels of that. May heavy drinkers become low in magnesium over time due to the diuretic actions of the alcohol. Caffeine also has the same effect. This is my magnesium thread: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread1138.html Soaking in epsom salts baths may help too. Or using the lotion, Morton Epsom lotion, on target spots, will work too. But it is not designed to use all over the body. Apply it to feet one day, (tops not bottoms), calves one day, thighs, the next...and rotate. It is really a wonderful way to relax muscles and provide the body with some magnesium that way. I use it every day myself. WalMart, Walgreen's and online at Amazon. (not all stores carry it yet). |
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Thank you, Mrs D. There is plenty of research to suggest there may be links between heart disease and dysfunction and too much iron. It is also a reason why a doctor I know donates blood regularly - too much iron.
I was taking magnesium and then when I ran out after one month, I did not buy it again. But, I will. We will see if it makes any difference. Quote:
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Update: May 08, 2015
Up and down. Up and down. All I see is the see-saw sea.
For the past four days, paresthesias were set back to a dull fuzziness, and were absent after rest/sleep in prone position. I thought I was going to go nose-up and leave these war-grey clouds of obtuse fuzziness! Wrong! Nerve conditions are apt to play Loki. Left sole, right toes, very tips of left middle fingers and very tippy tips of right smallest fingers, right toes every so slightly fizzy, not even fuzzy. And, Today, awoke without a symptom. But my old ghosts returned, elicited on standing and walking. Only today did I have a minor crisis with left sole paresthesia becoming more intense (approx 40% as intense as on April 3). Left outside shin was numb for around an hour (had been sitting for 2 hours to write with inner knee unconsciously pressed against one aspect of the weird desk at which I sit to write). Standing and walking and sitting upon the glossy porcelain throne elicited immediately left sole paresthesia (which was relieved when raised buttock. O the games Dubinin plays in the can room, cannery(?)). Oh, wait - Wednesday: Could not properly bench press - weakness on right side with noticeable loss of right upper pec muscle (a one-and-a-half inch long and inch wide area near sternum served by lateral pectoral nerve). Even pushups (without feet elevated on chair) were difficult. After changing to higher dosage of vitamin B1, mystery of the prodigal pec was resolved in 2 days. :eek: Pec now feels about normal again. As weird as that sounds. Still upper body weakness, with 5 elevated-feet pushups feeling like I had already done 80 before their number. Troubling. But, I'm not truly worried. It will come back. Won't it? If it does, I will bench press again. If it doesn't, I will sit and eat vitamin filled cheese cake and look fat for a while. Quads are still smaller than they ought to be. Calves are slightly diminished. Have commenced regular lunges and squats to activate hypertrophic pathways to counteract the atrophic process. May or may not work. Let's hope it does, lest I forever more be called Needle Legs. Will add upper body rehabilitative program to that bunch of odds and bods. Will perform whatever pushups I can, halve the number, and do that number in three sets each day and add to that number daily. And look up cheese cake recipes. What a chirpy Dubinin, even while feeling a million buzzing demyelinated axons screaming for death or mercy- and hoping that either comes first. One must keep their wits in place, though; as long as wits are able to tenant this skull. |
Update: July 10, 2015.
Pectoralis Major (RS) Right tricep and right bicep recovering. The increase toward normal strength came as suddenly as it left. It is amazing. Getting a physiological pump much better these days. Quads and calf muscles still down. Expect that larger muscle groups may take longer to repair. Discontinued magnesium and Vit D. Getting more sunlight in this weather. Still taking vit B1, B3, B6, B12; E, A. Be careful of taking vit B3 and B6 at same time as B1 as these vitamins will fight for the same receptor sites. I space by two hours. Otherwise, I'm doing fantastically well. Thank you! Sober: 4 months. No longer dreaming of it. Satan no longer has a hold on me. |
Dubinin, 4 months is great.
Good job :)! |
Dubinin, any update? Hope you're well. Stay strong.
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paresthesias were decreasing week by week, until just last Sunday, when bang, I was hit hard with paresthesias that were similar to those leading me to post here the first ever time. So, indeed! Time for an update: Titled: "5 months forward! Now do it all again." I was back to working out with some intensity - I worked out three days in a row last week, then bam - on came the symptoms. (Paresthesias in hands and feet - not relieved by elevation of feet or sleep as in previous months). Other symptoms: Insomnia (can not presently stay asleep longer than 4 to 5 hours - came on with paresthesias). Some forgetfulness - I know where my keys are. But some words or place names elude me (they eventually come after minutes sometimes). This may be because of sleep deprivation. Butttt this and other symptoms I shall list do tie into something else. Muscle wastage (recurred after many weeks, affecting left forearm. Legs are still down). Anxiety episodes (I have fought with this a lot in the past; and as I moved on from teens and early twenties, those went away. Then after years - some anxiety episodes have occurred recently, which struck me as odd). Lack of concentration (paying more attention to people walking behind me than to reading this for editing purpose, and having to re-read and re-read that which has been already re-read many times) See? Now I just forgot the next thing I was going to list... Oh, right -- Tachycardia - (120+ bpm) on ridiculously simple tasks such as waking and stretching in bed. Skipped beats (not new for me, had that all my life. Used to play with this phenomenon - as a younger guy would hold breath, feel HR increase slightly. Then exhale and breath normally while taking pulse. And would feel pulse intensify, then skip a beat then resume normal course. Well - that don't happen lately! HR skips beats even during breath holding phase, and just does not fit the old and familiar pattern when having an episode of tachy, which usually lasts about 17 minutes; then bradycardia follows. Poor little heart! What the hell did I do to you, when you were only ever good to me and tried to keep me alive?!) Lack of energy - feel heavy, lead-heavy these last 4 days; impacts on ability the last two days to work out according to my program. Some breathlessness on exertion (when cycling, for example, to get B12 pills downtown). Eyesight - muscles used for focus do not want to co-operate as they used to sometimes. Blurry vision. Subtle loss of muscle mass from face, neck, and everywhere between neck to toenails. Weight down by 10 pounds over the last three months. And the good news, Dubinin? Gosh, give us the good news! Can do 450 push ups with elevated feet in under an hour (up from 5 (not a typo- 5!) as of... 2 or 3 months ago? (Record was/is 660 in an hour)). I had reported here some time back massive loss of strength in right pec, right tri, and right everything else. Could not even do 10 normal pushups at that stage. Can do 100 squats with 22 pounds in 6 minutes (3 x 1 minutes sessions with 2 x 1.5 minutes rests). Buttt legs feel like hell after, as does the rest of me. This feeling is contiguous with the big backflip I have gone through recently. Now then- the solution, old chum? What is the solution to the current crisis? B12. That is the solution and it is the one thing I managed to overlook. Well, not overlook. I overlook nothing. But I trusted a nutritionist, who never had a drink in his life, and didn't know the protocol for treating B12 deficiency. The B complex I was/restarted taking has TEN times too much B6 (that's the one that will mess you up good, AND it can produce symptoms similar to those we're trying to deal with. So do be careful!) The same complex also had TEN times too little B12, in terms of dosage required to treat B12 deficiency. And yes, alcoholism (or whatever we choose to call it, without using such a 'shameful' and emotionally-charged 'sticker') will deplete B12. I confess idiocy. I thought I was on target with B12 - considering the 250mcg suggested by a high profile nutritionist that was supposed to be for "detox and recovery." This strictly limited level of B12 is strict BS. If you're deficient in B12, this really will not begin to right the listing and paresthetic ship. I have researched for many hours now over the last 4 days and, in sum, the published sources point to the following regimen for treating B12 deficiency. FIRST TWO WEEKS: SINGLE daily DOSE of 1000-2000mcg B12 (This high dose is required because of the variable absorption of oral vitamin B12 in doses of 500 mcg or less - hence the mess I was in with trusting for months in only 250mcg...) NEXT TWO WEEKS: 1000mcg B12, once daily. Re-check B12 levels: "In ... vitamin B12 deficiency, we recommend repeat measurements of serum vitamin B12, homocysteine, and methylmalonic acid levels two to three months after initiating treatment." (Dr. Robert Oh: Vitamin B12 Deficiency. Published in: American Family Physician. 2003 Mar 1;67(5):979-986). NOTE that serum B12 levels are NOT a fine measure of your actual B12 state. MORE accurately, we must check homocysteine, and methylmalonic acid levels (as is explained in Dr. Robert Oh's publication - link given below). The ins, outs and in-betweens of B12 deficiency - signs, treatment and why testing only serum level B12 (without any reference to levels of homocysteine, and methylmalonic acid can be dubious) is all here: http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0301/p979.html I commenced this B12 therapy today. I expect no results for probably two weeks, but will keep notes, my own order of meticulous notes. Make sure to treat B12 deficiency early. I have effectively let this go for months with very very scant oral B12, thinking I was doing okay. No wonder 180 B1 pills seemed to do nothing. I really do see that B12 deficiency ties in every symptom I have mentioned to date. Everything: paresthesia, the mimicry of PN (peripheral neuropathy), insomnia, cardiac symptoms, breathing symptoms, anxiety, muscle wastage, generalized lack of energy - the whole terrible lot. I will let you know how I go...! Peace and blessings to everyone! |
<So, indeed! Time for an update:
Titled: "5 months forward! Now do it all again." I was back to working out with some intensity - I worked out three days in a row last week, then bam - on came the symptoms. (Paresthesias in hands and feet - not relieved by elevation of feet or sleep as in previous months). > Interesting post, dubinin. your observation here on exercise rings so true for me also in some respects. I wish I could predict how changes in exercise affect my symptoms, but it seems pretty random. It's hard to know if one is helping or hurting....thanks for the post. |
Thanks for the detailed reply! It's much appreciated. I think we're in the same boat. And yes, I'd like to right that ship as well.
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Random is the way of nerves, especially when they have been impacted by any kind of trauma. I can see it is a real nuisance, not being able to predict accurately how your nerves will go from day to day. The temptation is to drop exercise. But, the general strategy should be to keep exercising, as far as energy levels and other factors will permit. The maxim that people have adopted with success is to keep working out as much as they can. Now, the problem is that if a peripheral nerve has been affected to the point strength is subsequently affected, then one needs to augment their work out for safety to avoid complicating things further through injury. So it comes back to tediously applying oneself to adjusting loads and limits, and trying to start with a base minimum and trying to stimulate the muscle groups as best we can (and as far as restricted insights and random nerves permit). At my worst, I was down to 7 pushups (or less) a day, with a few squats. But it was something. I decided that if that was my new starting point, so be it, and that I would build from there. Don't be afraid to "tear it down" to a new minimum. You will always be better able to gauge results from setting the bar too low than too high. I worked my 7 pushups into something a 3 year old could have pulled off - 7 push ups became three sets: 4-5-3 pushups, with an extra 1 or 2 every time I worked out again. But, I kept going, doing anything I could. Low impact exercises minimize *injury* and will help cardio- pool, elliptical (exercise bike), walking over a known course (a safe course - one with no trip hazards or weird obstacles like stair wells and golf course bunkers - important if one is having foot drop or leg issues) and trying to better times - all of this will help minimize injury, if you can do it. When large muscle groups are malfunctioning, then going back to "core" and physiotherapeutic exercises is still something. It is the worst feeling when you know what you can do, and you just can't do it. But it can and does come back. A lot of literature uses the shallow doom of "PN can be permanent" without explaining exactly WHEN it will be permanent. It is useless, and should not be used as a formula for quitting exercise. Peripheral nerves are very capable of healing themselves, given the right nutrition and rest support (in cases of insomnia - this often comes back to high dose vitamin therapy as it did in my case and the cases of many many others). It is also a horrible feeling when people don't just get it. We know what we are capable of, when nerves permit (and they will again). They say such things as "Well, you just have to accept this as the new you," as a nursing amour said to me during this time. Really? I resisted swallowing her glib and diffuse commentary and went at it against her fatefulness. People just don't get it. We give up expecting them to. But we focus on the important issues of never giving up - and always looking for the solutions that fit our issue. I hope anything I said was useful. You will be better than you might feel you are today. It can be a demoralizing experience like no other when nerves go awry. But there is, generally, a solution for everything. So, hang in there! Quote:
Good news - B12 seems to be working wonders for me. Longer sleeps, clear dreams, daily reduction in paresthesias, better concentration, no anxiety now, body seems to be slowly "filling up" again from being slammed. And this was my big news that I was coming here to report. But B12 seems to have caused a breakthrough for me. So, this would be my recommendation for you, fellow shipmate - I have a hunch, a theory, that some people are not great absorbers of B12 anyway, and as long as they live like the Amish they tend not to encounter the plethora of problems that come when B12 goes low. However, drinking like crazy, as I did, highlights this and continued heavy drinking will bring on a bunch of problems that can be misdiagnosed; mismanaged; and if we are reaching for supplements, those can mask even a B12 deficiency. So advice hot off the press is to check B12, (and B1, and don't overdo B6); and if in any doubt at all, consider starting the B12 therapy mentioned above in my last huge post! I'm so convinced B12 is the answer for me that was lacking, and wish it was as straightforward for everyone! Quote:
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7 Days on B12
Notes from the past 7 days on high B12 protocol to treat B12 deficiency.
(B vitamins are pivotal in maintaining nerve and muscle health. B12, B1, B2, B3, B6 all have their role to play. It is easy enough to accidentally mask a B deficiency. B12 deficiency, in my case, was masked and overlooked. Symptoms persist needlessly in such cases. So, check your Bs! And make sure that more intense testing is done than just to check serum levels of B. In the case of B12 "a more sensitive method of screening for vitamin B12 deficiency is measurement of serum methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels" (Dr. ROBERT C. OH and Dr DAVID L. BROWN: Am Fam Physician. 2003 Mar 1;67(5):979-986)). My Study on Myself: High B12 protocol and results - WEEK ONE SEP 18 ====== SLEEP: Slept 5 hours, with vivid dreams (it's been a while). PARESTHESIAS: right toes, left instep, heel, left hand on waking from sleep. right middle fingers. COGNITIVE: Some "forgetfulness" CARDIO: tachy on waking from naps. (3 naps from 12:30- 3:55pm) 78bpm at rest. WEIGH IN: (2 pair socks, track pants, t): 209LBS (95 kg). --------------------------------------- SEP 19 SLEEP: Slept 6 hours with wakefulness in middle, after going to bed late PARESTHESIAS: less than yesterday. Right hand TINGLING on waking. Elevated to pillow and alleviated. CARDIO: Did not notice as forceful tachy on waking. But still present, only to lesser degree. 76 bpm at rest ------------------------------------ SEP 20 SLEEP: Slept 5 hours solidly. Reclined for a further two. Dreams are very vivid. Sleep is very deep. Wish it was longer. PARESTHESIAS: Finger tips both hands paresthetic. Some minor shake. Greatly reduced tingling in feet. Very very faint tingle in left foot. Fingers on both sides feel tight. Thumb on left feels tight. COGNITIVE: Concetration is better. Able to more quickly retrieve lost thoughts/names. CARDIO: Valsalvas and stretching with tensing of body on waking lead to pronounced tachycardia. (120 BPM, bounding). 68 bpm at rest ------------------------------- SEP 21 SLEEP: Slept 5 hours then a further 3 or more - one break, clear dreams and deep sleep. PARESTHESIAS / NEURO: Legs feel a little weak, trembly, but not visible. Can carry groceries up three flights of stairs without much problem. Still wish I hadn't. See a little more meatiness to my slightly trembling hands. This afternoon, a strange thrumming sensation at coccyx. How to tell anyone about that one? RH less tight feeling. LH a little tight esp around thumb. L sole tingly (3/10 rating) R sole - not tingly. Some numb patches on outer sole RF. COGNITIVE: Concentration is better, able to focus on jeopardy better. CARDIO: No notable tachy on waking and stretching. 74bpm resting ------------------------------- SEP 22 SLEEP: Slept 5 hours then a further 3 again. Clear dreams. (it has been so long!) PARESTHESIAS / NEURO: feeling generally tired. 3/10 left sole paresthesia. L quad seems to be coming back a little! Calves still have "missing pieces". Very slight tingle left fingers. RH no tingling. CARDIO: 70 bpm resting. Minimal tachy on waking. ------------------------------ Sep 23 SLEEP: slept almost 6 hours straight. PARESTHESIAS / NEURO: Awoke tingle free. Just starting to get tingly now 5 hours after waking. About level 3.3/10 Twitch in inner right thigh since midnight last night (17 hours worth of inner thigh getting its groove on by 5:20pm today). CARDIO: No tachy of note to report. 64 bpm resting. ------------------------ SEP 24 SLEEP: Slept 7.5 hours with tiny wakefulness after the 5 hour mark, I think it may have been. Vivid dreams - Schwarzenegger was in a red long sleeve shirt, and I was assisting him in avoiding the Predator. Lawd... my dreams are undeniable jejune today. But very clear - and yes, we do dream in color. PARESTHESIAS / NEURO: Awoke with no symptoms in feet. Some tingling faintly in right middle fingers. Just starting to feel tingle in left sole now (on standing, 1.5 hours after waking). Oh! Twitch has gone, thank heavens. CARDIO: No tachy on waking. 68bpm rest MUSCULAR: Body is "filling up again." Face feels fuller; cleft in chin returning (didn't know that was a muscle thing) can sense how tight hands have been. I stretch them better now, and can feel the burning measure of their new freedom. Legs changing shape for the better. L quad/thigh really returning. Was scared, frankly, when thighs were "straight!" Now the quad is hooping our a little more, as it should in my case. Ab muscles are much more willing to tense (have been slack and "distant"). deltoids coming back. Junction of neck and traps- I again have such a junction. Not as pronounced as before, but it is there. WEIGH IN: 209 lbs steady. OTHER: Skin color and texture even looks much better. It must be said: I even feel more calm - tranquil - on the B12. Must look into that. How much anxiety is caused by B being low? Anyway, it feels like a drug and thank heavens it isn't one. I'm probably high on levels of this and that, as they return to normal. |
End of week two. General findings: improved state of muscular contraction and marked decrease in paresthesias. Better sleep. Etc. (Will post tomorrow on week two findings).
As a result, conducted further reading and decided that I will continue this course of treatment at 2000mcg daily for 90 days (based on 2011 evidence that supports this - see below). Then I will reassess. Then, if required, proceed to 120 days at same level. The following information is from Am Fam Physician. 2011 Jun 15;83(12):1425-1430. Link: http://www.aafp.org/afp/2011/0615/p1425.html Quote:
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This is a better link to AAFP:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0301/p979.html This is my B12 informational thread....it has more detail than the medical ones: http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/thread85103.html Alcoholics can also benefit from thiamine or its newer cousin benfotiamine. Thiamine is a cofactor in removing aldehydes which are byproducts of metabolism of ethyl alcohol. |
Dear MrsD, I already provided the 2003 link in post #25.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2003/0301/p979.html The 2011 link was provided to show the B12 deficiency treatment protocol that has changed markedly in the last 8 years. http://www.aafp.org/afp/2011/0615/p1425.html AND B12 also suffers greatly in people with a history of excessive alcohol consumption but this is often masked when taking an oral multi B and especially FOLATE ( ie., B9 or Folic Acid) replacement, as this will mask deficiency of B12, but the damage to peripheral nervous system continues. QED. |
Dear people, B12! I'll say it again, B12! Google it and see just what an impact it has when people are deficient in it.
Forasmuch as people claim B1 is the main thing lost to alcohol dependency, it is not true. B12 also takes a massive hit, probably more than B1. A multi or taking Folic acid (folate, B9) MASKS the issue. Big pharma doesn't make profits from cures, but keeps making return clientele to fuel one of the biggest monopolies on the planet. As for me, I have never felt better as I did since taking the B12. Not yet perfect. But paresthesias are at an all time low. Face shape is returning, muscles are starting to wake up and fill out again after the erosion of neurogenic atrophy. Skin color is wonderful, seborrheic dermatitis is gone. Sleep patterns are stabilizing. My warning is this: B12. Take it, and make sure you do not become someone who is exploited by big pharmaceutical companies and poor grade vitamin companies. This stupid, evil system values youth. In my experience, as soon as you pass the barrier of 30, kids at McDonalds start calling you "Sir." And doctors become more and more "conservative" and minimalist in their treatments. ALWAYS demand your rights. You have the same rights as anyone. All people have the right to proper and fair treatment. And YOU have the right to make sure you get the best care, especially for something as harrowing as a neurological issue. You are not created to be a purse, wallet, piggy bank for big companies. You are human. You have dignity and pride and worth! Never dare give up the image of who you REALLY are. Peace, love and flowers to you all. I go by 'Kris Whitestone' in the "cult camp" of Facebook. Be sure to look me up some day, if you ever want to stop by :) As my final post - here is my regimen that has done me the world of good: 1200 : 85mg B6, B1 (250mg), B3 (400mg), B5 (300mg), Vit A (10,000 international units- do not used for prolonged time), D3 (1000 iu), Magnesium (300mg) - take ALL with FOOD. [All the Bs are contained in a B complex] 1400 : Calcium (600mg) with food 1700 : E (500iu) and Zinc (125mg as amino chelate; do not take for prolonged time) with food 1800 : Magnesium (300mg) with food 2200 : B12 2000mcg TAKE ON EMPTY STOMACH (2000 for first month or two, then reduce to 1000mcg oral daily for up to two years. If symptoms increase, return to 2000mcg for a month at a time before reducing to 1000mcg). This is the most important vitamin, to which every other element in the regimen is hinged. (You may choose to start your day with this instead of the B complex - just switch them out) 0000 : B1 (250mg), Magnesium (300mg), D (300mg) with food. |
Cult Camp
See you in Cult Camp, Kris.
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I was 6 months on super high levels of B1 - insomnia and tachycardia became persistent. As a result, it is important that I post the UPDATED regimen.
This page is quite accurate (if just a little messy) about possible signs and symptoms of high levels (including overdose) of vitamins: http://www.acu-cell.com/bx2.html |
UPDATED VITAMIN REGIMEN - (AFTER SYMPTOMS DEVELOPED TO HIGH B1 for 6 months. It is RARE to develop adverse reactions to water-soluble B-1 as excess is urinated away. But, everyone has their limits. So, please do drink water often and well while on B-1).
TAKE B1 250mg twice a day, 12 hours apart, until levels test in normal range. WHEN B-1 in normal range, discontinue use, and monitor for increase in symptoms related to B1 deficiency. Then re-evaluate re-commencing B-1. In the case that B-1 is indicated, please see my earlier post (my goodbye post, with a little heart on it) - about 3 or 4 posts before this one. VITAMIN REGIMEN - WITHOUT B-1 : (Vitamins B in this regimen are NOT in a B complex. I take them singularly after they discontinued the B complex I was taking). 0900 : Vit A (10,000 iu -- do not take for long periods - liver damage risk and blurry eyes risk) and D3 (1000iu; check your brand is reputable, big discrepancies exist with D, especially with D3); Calcium (600mg - TAKE with full cup of water. Keep in ratio of 1:1 with magnesium up ratio of 2:1! and do not exceed 2:1 or Magnesium will drop, possibly causing tachycardia and paresthesia) -Take all with food. 1000 : B3 (250mg - careful with B3, as it will bring on some dire symptoms and signs if high use is continued for a long time, some people have needed hospital treatment as a result; constantly monitor levels in blood) -- Take with Food. 1100 : Magnesium (300 mg - with food to avoid diarrhea and upset stomach) 1400 : E (500iu) and Zinc (125mg as amino chelate; do not take for prolonged time) -- Take with Food. 1500 : Calcium (300mg - half a 600mg pill -- TAKE with full cup of water). 1600 : B5 (250mg) B6 (100mg maximum - do not exceed this in a day!) Magnesium (300mg) -- Take with Food. *These Bs are a vital step in the regimen* 1900 : B12 (B12 2000mcg TAKE ON EMPTY STOMACH!) You may need B12 oral or shots for life. Check your levels and determine the best course for you. However, as a general rule, we use this formula, based on research from 2005, 2008, etc: 2000mcg (micrograms) for first month or two, then reduce to 1000mcg oral daily for up to two years. If symptoms increase, return to 2000mcg for a month at a time before reducing to 1000mcg). This is the most important vitamin, to which every other element in the regimen is hinged. 2000 : B3 (250mg, see earlier warning in this regimen) -- Take with Food. 2100 : Magnesium (300mg), B9 (folate, if indicated - be careful with this one, too, can lead to anemia, irreversible neurological damage, higher heart disease risk, lung and prostate cancer risk: most cases at doses of 5000mcg and above. Limit it to 400mcg to 500mcg once daily for a month, rechecking levels. IMPORTANT: B9 will mask B12 deficiency! When in neuro trouble, most people will reach for the B complex, which contains B9, and will never see they have a B12 deficiency. This is why B12 deficiency seems to be a missing factor in most treatment plans for neuro disease! AND B12 is not available in high enough doses in ANY B complex (multivitamin) formula to correct deep deficiency as is present in cases of excess alcohol consumption) -- Take with Food. You may choose to start your day with B12 on empty stomach, or with the B5 and B6 - just maintain the order, whatever you decide to do. You can check symptoms of too much and too little of any vitamin here: http://www.acu-cell.com/bx2.html AND http://www.acu-cell.com/nico2.html#b12 |
Absolutely vital: Take b12 with folate!
B12 Therapy IMPORTANT NOTES:
INTENDED FOR: Those of you whose problems are caused by B12 deficiency (as mine are/were - symptoms of B12 macrocytic anemia and PERIPHERAL NEUROPATHY - including insomnia, tachycardia, neurogenic atrophy of muscles and/or muscular atrophy, myopathy; general weakness, paleness of nail beds; dyspnea (shortness of breath) on simple tasks - even such as holding breath while drinking, paleness or very vague pale tinge to skin tone; seborrheic dermatitis, paresthesias galore. Both neurological deficit and anemia can cause similar problems - it is always best to consult a competent physician). VITAL INFORMATION: Your regimen for treatment of B12 deficiency will include a daily dose of B12 oral up to 2000mcg. This will very quickly lower your B9, folate, reserves. B12 and B9 must be taken together. (In some studies this has been shown to increase cancer cell division rates - so seek medical advice if you may be genetically at higher cancer risk, or environmentally prone to agents that promote cancer cell growth rates - eg., gasolene, diesel, petrochemical exposure. NB: A 1000mcg dose of B12 oral daily will reduce your Potassium reserves in 3 days. It is important to note the following interrelations between nutrients: B12 must be partnered with B9 in a supportive ratio (or the higher corrective ratio if B9 deficiency anemia has commenced). High dose B12 also greatly enhances need for potassium intake. Erstwhile, B9 will markedly increase need for Zinc and Magnesium. AND Calcium must stay in the correct ration with Magnesium (do not exceed a ratio of 2:1 of calcium : Magnesium - and include dietary intake in your calculations). CAUTION: Long term Folate/Folic Acid (B9) use is not advised. In extreme cases it can cause kidney damage and 'excite' liver dysfunction making liver symptoms more pronounced. Proceed with EXTREME CAUTION. Main symptom to watch for - loss of appetite. Folate is the natural form of B9 and Folic Acid is the synthetic form. Most cautions surround heightened cancer risk when taking high dosage Folic Acid, especially in the presence of B12. However the natural variety of B9 Folate in high doses is likewise not advised. Long term zinc use is also highly discouraged, and can lower copper levels, as can high calcium and low potassium and low sodium - proceed with EXTREME CAUTION. Add a touch of salt to your potatoes - sodium must be in appropriate ratio with potassium. It is also possible to overdose on calcium and magnesium - so, once again, proceed with EXTREME CAUTION. MY PERSONAL REGIMEN - may be used alone or in conjunction with above: MY person regimen for staving off B9 Folate deficiency anemia is to proceed as follows (your regimen may differ, depending on your physician's advice). Daily: B12 2000mcg (oral, take on empty stomach,one hour BEFORE food, in one hit. Do not divide dosage). Do this for 10 weeks. Then reduce dosage by half. 4 times a day: 750mcg of B9 oral. Do not exceed 3mg (3000mcg) in any 24 hour period - please keep a journal/log of your medication. Continue until symptoms of B9 Folate deficiency are gone, then reduce as follows: 500mcg * 2 times a day 250mcg * 3 times a day 500mcg * 1 per day 250mcg * 1 per day Discontinue - and take in B9 from dietary sources only. Magnesium: 250mg * 3 times a day Zinc: 125mg * 1 per day Potassium: 250mg * 1 per day Calcium: 300mg * 3 times a day (Take with full glass of (purified) water) Increase dietary copper sources: The best dietary sources include seafood (especially shellfish), organ meats (e.g., liver), whole grains, legumes (e.g., beans and lentils) and chocolate. Nuts, including peanuts and pecans, are especially rich in copper, as are grains such as wheat and rye, and several fruits including lemons and raisins. Muscle Atrophy note: In cases where muscles are affected (atrophy, pump is not so full, or muscles feel flabby or "loose" - use l-carnitine, or take a good quality protein supplement. This should halt progression of atrophy (even in cancerous cachexia). Or drink a protein shake three times a day to boost essential amino acids. Taking BCAAs 4 times daily may also help prevent further muscle mass destruction. Inositol Note: Inositol in my experience has had no significant effect, for better or worse. Therefore, what is the point? Please email me at dubinin2@hush.com for any clarification. |
Adjusted dosage after four days
My personal requirements have changed again after four to five days.
If B12 deficiency has been an issue, high dosage will drive down B9 levels and give you a new form of anemia or symptoms will seem to return. The symptoms will also return if B9 is too high - B12 must be taken with B9 -- AND they must be in correct balance. You will need higher B9 if it has been depleted by HIGH DOSAGE B12. Once back on track, B12 @ 2000mcg must be paired with 400mcg of B9. Your personal requirements may differ from mine. This is the point of blood tests. Keep taking zinc, potassium, calcium, mangesium. I am currently doing: B12: 2000mcg (on empty stomach, wait an hour for food) B9: 500mcg Zn - 25mg once daily Mg - 550mg once daily Ca - 500mg/ once daily K - 250mg once daily All done! Stay on this, monitoring for reduction and an end to symptoms and signs such as: tachy, insomnia, skin pallor, breathlessness and, muscle tone When B12 and B9 become unstable, the effects ARE peripheral neuropathy and all the signs and symptoms mentioned. If oral B12 does not help effectively, go for the shots immediately. They will do bloods - tell them to also test MMA (methylmalonic acid level) IF you have been taking B9. Failure to correct B12 levels when signs of paresthesia (tingling, numbness etc) have persisted for months WILL mean the condition becomes irreversible. ...So, finally, I answered my own question asked months ago. I hope this helps anyone avoid messing their nerves up to the point of being crippled or constantly needing Beta Blockers. IFF you have a history of excess alcohol intake, they will all jump to the B1 conclusion. This is dangerous. ALCOHOL AFFECTS AND DEPLETES ALL B VITAMINS. B1, B6 and B12 are ALL affected. Wasting time dealing with B1 and B9 in isolation will prolong B12 deficiency anemia and B12 deficiency peripheral neuropathy. The NEUROLOGICAL EFFECTS AFTER MONTHS WILL BE IRREVERSIBLE. Many doctors do not even understand fully the effects and outcomes of B levels that are out of balance or depleted. It is like the B vitamin family is the final friggin frontier or something. So use your wits - and choose a doctor who understands this serious matter. Your future health and nerve condition depend on choosing the right doctor, who will do whatever is necessary to understand exactly the implications of your B deficiency. A schilling test and other such tests may be needed to show how well you are absorbing B vitamins. The correct therapy depends on you personally, and must be geared by a competent professional to suit you as an individual. With blessings and peace - Dubinin. |
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