My return to BJJ - Potential Concussion - Really need some things answered
 

Hey everyone
I'd first like to thank those who have been very helpful on this forum. There is some fantastic information here and friendly people!

Anyway, if you haven't read my original post that explains where I am at so please read that first if you have not :)

Anyway, I've been back about 5 weeks now and originally I was excited because it was helping. Small knocks/bumps were not worrying me and I was getting on with it so BJJ was helping me overcome anxiety.
HOWEVER, tonight I had a bit of a larger knock to the back of the head.
It wasn't that bad, however when I left the gym tonight I was a little wobbly walking out. This was a little concerning for me and I was starting to worry it was a sign of another concussion.

I was however a little dehydrated, hadn't eaten much before training and also nearly went unconscious from a choke as well as having quite a bit of adrenaline from sparing so that may have contributed.
Anyway, because I was walking a bit funny I popped into the doctors which I've done a few times over the past year when I have suspected a head injury. None of them ever have been tho.

However, tonight I got "diagnosed" with a "mild concussion."
I was told all the nuero tests were fine but that because I was walking funny and "that caused me to come in to see a doctor," they said it was a mild concussion.

But I was told that it was so minor and nothing like my previous concussions and that it is too early to tell if it is an issue and that if I feel fine tomorrow not to worry but if I don't get better come back.
Anyway, that has stressed me out hearing the words "diagnosed Mild concussion," as I now feel like I've received another concussion.
But after I got home, had a shower, drank some water, took some pain relief and anti nausea and ate dinner, I feel pretty much fine.
I'm now super stressed and ******. I'm now wondering if BJJ is worth it. I was so happy to return, and it was helping initially but now I'm thinking if it is even worth it.

Also, in regards to this "concussion diagnosis," I'm a bit concerned and questioning it. Usually when I get seen they can usually tell me, "yep you have one or "nope" you don't. I know that concussions cannot be diagnosed as 100% but all the times they have checked me in the last year (maybe 7 or 8 times), they have said no concussion, neck problems, you're fine. And then a day or 2 later I am sweet.

In this case I don't like how she has said "minor concussion," as to me, a concussion is bad regardless and if I have sustained a 3rd or potentially 4th one (depending on my motorcycle one), then that feels like quite a few to have had in the last 25 months.
I've honestly been pretty much fine tonight. Been 6 hours since and I've been watching TV, on my PC doing all my normal stuff etc and having pretty much no issues.

I guess my question is:
1. if I feel pretty much completely fine tomorrow (with only mild symptoms like I experience sometimes because of my neck etc), then can I rule this out as a concussion?
2. I'm tempted to go and see my actual GP and get a second opinion. Is that worth it ?
3. Should I consider maybe leaving BJJ? I feel like this is always going to be a constant worry. I'm just scared that this head stuff is going to control my life. Like, I'm scared to go snowboarding (used to go a few times a year) but haven't been since my concussion. I'm scared to ride roller coasters. I'm scared to do go karting etc. I feel like this is controlling my life and returning to bjj was meant to be my confidence booster and way to work through my anxiety.
4. Can someone elaborate on if a "mild concussion," is still as bad as a concussion.
5. Do I potentially sustain a sub concussive hit and not actually a concussion?

What is BJJ? Is that a fighting reference?

If you are engaged in fighting sparring, I am sorry but I will not respond to questions. That is foolish. A choke? Really? Do you know what a choke does? It screws up your neck.

You took antinausea meds?

Sorry. You know what is causing your problems.

Asking about continuing in a fighting activity is like asking if you can have sex until you are a little bit pregnant.

An injured brain is an injured brain.

Are you taking any medications, pain remedies, or supplements?

Hi Mark

Sorry I'll try and clear a few things up because I feel like some of your comments might be mislead from my information.

I am engaged in fighting/sparring but not boxing etc. I am involved in BJJ which is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. We grapple and there are no strikes. 90% of our fighting is done on the ground as well. So imagine wrestling but probably safer than wrestling. We control our opponents and submit them via chokes, joint locks and compression locks.

Yes I do know what a choke does. Well actually, if we are being technical we apply both choke types - One being "strangulation" to cut off the carotid artery which is the primary attack we use and then a "choke" which attacks the windpipe which isn't used as much.

But yes, I understand it can be hard on the neck but it has actually helped by strengthening my neck as well.

Yeah I did take anti nausea meds. Is this a bad thing? If it is please advise as if I shouldn't be taking them I'd like to know. I was prescribed them.

I understand you saying continuing fighting seems stupid but, it has been an entire 14 months since my last concussion (2nd one), so I have taken the time to heal and not rushed back into it.

Just anti nausea every now and then and paracetamol.

If you take anti-nausea meds to hide your concussion symptom of nausea, you have no way to tell if your brain is recovering. The same goes for pain meds.

You should not be on the mat/training floor if you have any symptoms.

If you are totally symptom free without meds for a month, activities might be considered. This is known as Return to Play. This has been well researched with goals of athletes returning to the sport at the earliest time. It only reduces risks of Second Impact Syndrome and injuries due to coordination/balance deficiencies. It does not mean your brain has recovered.

btw. Doctors prescribe meds to treat your symptoms/complaints, not to help you heal/recover.

Concussions NEVER heal. We can recover from the obvious symptoms but the brain will always have the injury.

Neck holds may cause you to work to strengthen your neck but the area at risk is unstable even with good muscle tone. As you try to resist a choke, you put strain on the cervical joints with your own muscle action. I actually had a doctor who used my own muscle strength to move my cervical vertebra. He held my head steady and had me try to turn my head. He claims it would help. It actually made my condition worse.

The ligaments at C-1 and C-2 are the weakest part.

It's better to take Omega-3 DHA and Curcumin instead of Tylenol, Ibuprofen, or anti-nausea drugs.

I've talked a lot about inflammation so it would seem logical to take anti-inflammatory drugs but unfortunately, they don't work.

Thanks for the response. I'd been approved by a Physio, Doctor and Sports Doctor to return to BJJ. I was told to monitor symptoms closely though. I was going great it was just that one knock that set me off.

Yeah I agree about doctors prescribing for symptoms not to help heal. I don't take any meds before training so I can monitor my symptoms I may take some after.

I'm interested why you say concussions never heal. I understand that the brain takes longer than the "initial 2-3 weeks" where most/all obvious symptoms resolve, but from what I have been told talking to concussion therapists etc they said they do heal, just can take a long time, sometimes a year or longer to FULLY heal.

My physio has been to a lot of seminars and courses related to concussion, some with all the latest research and he said that they still don't officially know if you have one or not as 10 different things mimic concussion, when you are truely healed etc.

SO you might be correct that they never fully heal, but then you might be wrong too. The sad thing is in the medical world they still don't know a lot about concussions, the long term effects, what leads to CTE etc etc.

My physio has had at least 17 concussions and probably more and is in his late 50s and he is doing absolutely fine.

I also know a few people who have had 1 or 2 MAJOR ones and are dealing with issues years later.

It really is **** because I miss not worrying about my head like I do. And for me, it is hard to say exactly how many I have had because 1 or 2 MAY or MAY NOT have been concussions.

My timeline from when this all started looks like this:

April 2020: Fell of Motorcycle and hit my head, broke my collarbone. No concussion doctors said however I did go unconscious but it was not from the impact I was conscious for like 5 minuets until one people tried to sit me up and I blacked out. At the time, never thought I had a concussion, no symptoms etc but looking back, from what you and others have said it may have caused some head trauma.

November 2020: First official concussion: Took a knee to the eye during sparring. Not knocked out, felt off, was off work for 8 days. Couldn't look at screens or do much of anything for about 6 days. Returned to BJJ 3 weeks later and was 100% fine. Again looking back I wish I had taken 2 months off.

March 2021: Second Concussion (Potential): Was lying on my back and my opponent was drilling a grip break for armbar. If you've not seen an armbar position have a look at the "spiderweb position" in BJJ. I was the guy on the bottom and the opponent basically bounces/drives their thigh into your head which cause you to lose your grip. My head basically bounced a few times off the mat (not very high and soft mat), but I knew something was wrong again.

This was a "potential concussion." I didn't feel right but I went to work 2 days later at a new job as well and took on a lot of information and did everything normal. I just didn't exercise and I was dealing with neck tightness/headaches and dizziness if I jerked/bumped my head.

So this could have been a concussion or it could have been whiplash or many other things.

And finally: May 2022: Potential Concussion 4 - I've been off BJJ for a year, doing other sports and while I have been dealing with issues I've been better and better.

This "concussion" happened when my opponent just wrapped his arm around my head to control me and it bumped the back of my head. THis was not that hard and the only "issue" I had with this one was I was wobbly when walking out after training. However, I kept training after this one as I felt fine. The diziness could have been because I hadn't eaten for 6 hours before training, lack of water, adrenaline or whiplash or concussion/

So for this one it is really hard for me to say it was a concussion as I felt 100% fine 2 days later anyway.

My doctor and physio both said I had to treat it was a mild concussion and my doctor is now telling me to quit BJJ.

He told me to quit not because of the concussions but because of my anxiety and the fact I will always worry about bumps to the head during training.

I'm kind of depressed right now and I'm unsure if i have had 1 concussion or 4 concussions in the last 2 years.

Ask yourself, is continuing with BJJ worth the possible risk of a long term issueYou never know which one will be the life changing one forever

Up C Spine
for c1 c2 info.

This thread has not gotten out of my mind in weeks....I guess when your on the side of permanent damage/problems that last a lifetime. We wish we could persuade them to change their ways?

But it seams it wont.....If I had a second chance I would not go to work that ugly day! I cant change the past, but only what I do today effects my future.

I wish the best to the poster. Read a few hundred threads, maybe that could change your mind?

Good luck

DeanBJJ,

I've been traveling with limited broadband so I could not reply.

The tissue/cellular damage NEVER heals because neurons do not heal or regenerate and levels needed to heal damage. A bone or skin makes scar tissue. There is not such thing as scar tissue in the brain matter.

The brain actually continues to 'suffer damage' after the original injury as the neurons and other healthy cells separate from the damaged/malfunctioning cells so those cells can be instructed to die and be absorbed. Using tRNA, transmitting RNA, they send out die signals to prevent those malfunctioning cells from disrupting the pathways of the healthy cells.

There are diagnostic systems that can compare various post-injury brain functions to baseline/pre-injury function. The injured brain will show failure when under stress even though it may operate at a higher level during non-stress activities.

If your physio had truly had 17 concussions, I can guarantee he is not functioning at pre-injury levels. His tolerance for stress is greatly reduced. How does he define/diagnose a concussion?

Most concussion diagnostics are very subjective and depend on the patient's observation skills of their symptoms. They may not even consider some symptoms as indicators. They confuse anxiety/startle from the impact with a concussion.

You have been told a lot of pure BS. That is common as everybody who goes to a concussion seminar thinks they are experts. Whether it is an IMPACT or CNS Vital Signs or Headminder or other seminar, they are industries looking for profits. Their focus is supporting engaging in at-risk sports with a primary focus of establishing Return to Play criteria. The Zurich Consensus on Concussion in Sports and other later global sports conferences have struggled to acknowledge the risks because they cause athletes to leave the sports WHERE THE SPORTS INDUSTRY MAKES A PROFIT.

Trying to diagnose a concussion by trying to analyze the forces involved is meaningless. Your motorcycle crash cannot be analyzed. Your loss of consciousness could have been a vagal response, syncope, concussion LOC, or from a myriad of causes. Corotid or vertebral blood flow could be the cause. The reduced blood flow could have caused damage. Nobody can say.

BJJ is an at risk combat sport. Make your own mind about how you want to live you life.

But, as I said elsewhere, considering BJJ is like asking, Can I have sex until I get a little bit pregnant.


I have lived with neurological/behavior/cognitive/memory struggles since 1965. I've suffered 5 events since then that each set me back further. In 2001, 1 minor event changed my life. That does not count the other 8-10 mild concussions.

My wife lives life without her right leg due to cancer. I would never minimize her struggles but I would trade my right leg for a healthy brain with no questions.

There is an old saying. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Thanks for the response man!!

Are you on the side of permanent damage/problems? If so I am sorry to hear that. Believe me, I'm not taking any of this lightly. I'm constantly battling internally about whether I should quit BJJ or continue.

I understand about risking a possible long term/permanent injury, but I have to ask myself. If I am so worried about that, then I shouldn't ride a motorcycle ever again, or I shouldn't snowboard, or should drive a car, or do many other things that COULD cause an injury right?

I think that is the biggest thing I am struggling with internally. If I give up BJJ to protect my brain, then riding a motorcycle seems hypocritical because if I come off that I am probably going to be FAR worse off. Or doing snowboarding where you fall on your ***, tumble, land funny etc.

I just feel like it is a "what if" situation with everything and I wanted to try and live my life sensibly but not just avoiding things all the time.

Thanks Mark, I do appreciate all your help on this.

I'm really sorry to hear about your wife and also your long term struggles due to your concussions. Have you had 5 major concussions and 8 minor ones then? May I ask what long term issues you suffer if you don't mind sharing. At what point (how many concussions) before you started to notice the long term effects.

When you talk about the neurons never healing, the damage etc, what actually happens then long term? Let's say someone had one concussion their entire life. Are you saying that even one means that they are not as cognitively intelligent? Or that the brain is forever "weaker" in a sense?

I wouldn't mind reading some Thesis's or research papers about what you are describing. I would love to find out more about it.

My Physio is going off his Rugby career where he had "bell ringers," was side-lined due to knocks and has definitely had a fair few concussions.

So with a lot of the stuff I have been told being BS, can you explain exactly what parts? I really want to know and am very interested in understanding the facts (or as much about concussions factually) as I can.

Is any of the things I have been told true? Like different things mimicking concussions, or that doctors really still don't know the true long term effects of concussion, how to prevent them, or even how to 100% diagnose a concussion?

I'm really torn, because as I said in response to the previous comment, I feel like if I quit BJJ, then I also have to quit riding motorcycles, quit snowboarding, quit driving a car because I could get a whiplash or head injury etc etc. Basically, I feel like I have to quit anything that COULD cause a concussion, but then I could slip over and hit the back of my head and give myself a major concussion which my friend recently did sadly.

She has had 5 concussions in the last 18 months sadly and is not doing very well (was off work for like 6 - 12 months) and just keeps getting them accidently like slipping over and hitting head, or getting something accidently thrown at her.

I was trying to go back to BJJ to say to myself I wouldn't let this fear of head knocks control my life. I'm trying to be careful by drilling more, rolling less and rolling less intensely but yeah it is a tough time.

BBJ is all about trying to control the other person with moves that can easily cause injury. Injuries are expected.

Motorcycle riding and snowboarding are not about trying to hurt or gain physical control over an opponent. Injuries are accidental.

I'm not going to get into the details other than to say, I had to drop out of college because I could not endure the stress. I would crash during exams and tests. I had the same experience at 10th grade after a concussion from heading a soccer ball. My academic skills declined greatly.

My academics were a roller coaster after my severe concussion at 10.

The rugby community is just starting to acknowledge the damage players have suffered. Rugby players have a culture of "nothing will keep me down" except those who get hurt with long term consequences are disregarded as they leave the sport.

People of mediocre intelligence do not notice the differences as much as people of higher intelligence.

If you don't want your fear of head impacts to control your life, you have a choice to ignore that fear. It does not change the risk. Live your life. Just don't try to get people like me to affirm your choices.

My short term memory is horrible. It tests in the bottom 10% of the population even though my intelligence is in the top 12% to 2% of the population. Driving on busy streets is a terror because my brain is constantly reacting to the fast movement around me.

My mother and my wife have both observed serious negative changes in my personality.

Look up anhedonia.... Yeah. It sucks. Visual aphasia, afantasia, verbal/expressive aphasia,

I used to have a photographic memory. Now, I can't look at a object and look away and describe it.

I post online because I can read what I was just thinking and typed because if I said it, I would not remember what I just said so I could continue the thought and comments.

There are many activities you can do that have a lower risk than BBJ. BBJ is about ego, not enjoyment.

You might be right. As much as I love BJJ tonight might have been the final straw for me.

I was rolling again and was in Mount (on top of opponent) and was digging for a choke and because my hands were tied up I got bumped aggressively forward (a legit technique to create space to escape), but I couldn't break my fall forward and my head drove straight into the mat.

I was only maybe 15 - 20cm off the ground because I was low and I hit my forehead and the mat is somewhat soft so I am hoping I don't have another head injury/concussion. I feel pretty much fine, maybe SLIGHTLY and dizzy but nothing bad. I had a cold last week and still kinda recovering so that could be part of it anyway.

But I ended up accidently smacking another opponents face into the mat as I went for an inverted armbar into omoplata transition and I smacked the back of the guys head accidently into the ground and his nose started bleeding HEAVILY.

But I was at home thinking, if I keep doing this even small hits will add up eventually and I was thinking about how I have been feeling this week. I'm only studying so I can pace myself but I think, wow once I get into 9-5 workdays if I keep this up I might struggle to maintain that level of brain activity in the future.

It was just playing on my mind. And I think what worries me was I always thought it would be sort of acute. Like I'd get a major head injury, my IQ would diminish and not fully recover.

But I'm starting to think that it might be slower and sneakier than I thought, where if I keep going this way, over a few years I might notice a subtle decline over a period of years, especially as I will get more and more knocks, even small ones.

You make a good point about how snowboarding and motorcycle riding are not ACTIVELY trying to control and are more accidents when something happens.

However, I don't think it is fair to say BJJ is ego because it is a sport like any other and something I love. It is not about trying to smash someone, it is a complex game where you can flow, move and develop your body.

But yeah, I think it might be time to hang it up.

Also, would you consider what I did likely to cause a concussion? I feel mostly fine, slight pressure in head but that happens a lot from minor knocks and my anxiety anyway.

Yes I have been disabled for over 15 years....Lots of problems for me, so its one day at a time...I was never able to pass the tests to drive again, so every moment of my waking days has been affected.

I wish I had some hobbies, watching tv fills lots of my time...It is a boring life but I cant deal with loud anything, people, to much of excitement of anything.

About this time last year I was terrified as we had a wild fire 10 miles away, being trapped, the smoke everywhere, and knowing I couldnt get far walking...So 6 years ago I got a real service dog to help me in public.

So you can see that my life has been ruined by my TBI....If I could change what happened on January 2, 2007 I would....