Bunch of questions
 

Does anyone know of any signs of nerve healing (axonal regeneration)? I'm trying to be optimistic with my PN thinking that the shooting pains I'm now getting are sort of "hey your nerve is working again and you're healing", but I'm probably just hoping for the best :/

I've been exhausting possibilities since my PN is currently idiopathic and was leaning toward thiamine deficiency causing it. I couldn't find much information about healing from it, and cell death, and asking a doctor in the USA about it yielded no information. Anyways, a few of the questions pertaining to this were: How long does it take during a thiamine deficient state to lose nerve cells, how long until symptoms present till the death of nerve cells, how long would it take to recover, and is it a full recovery? The best information I found stated that recovery was slow, but nothing beyond that.

Those symptoms--
 

--could very well be signs of axonal regeneration. Nerves tend to create all kinds of weird sensory signals/symptoms--pain, shoots, tingles, a feeling of "banding" when there's nothing there--when they are attempting to re-synapse, and fighting through other tissues to do so. In time, the brain tends to get used to these signals and to intepret them in a more normal manner.

Of course, these are exactly the same kind of symptoms one gets when nerves are being damaged. That's the problem--it's very hard to tell which way things are going except in long-term retrospect, and by that I mean over months to years. It's often instructive to keep a diary and compare things month to month, or season to season; does one overall have fewer symptoms over long time periods. If the answer is yes, it is likely the nerves are doing at least some slow regeneration.

Take a look at :

http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromusc...vitamin.htm#b1

Hi, I can only speak of my particular PN case [ mostly small fibre damage and a little large nerve involvement, severe burning in both feet and up to my knees] which was caused by prediabetes and my b12 was very low, if i was to try to answer as to how long it took to do the damage, i think i could safely say a couple of decades.

Once PN showed its ugly face it took about 4 months before the culprit/s were indentified, then through change of diet and some execise and lots of B12, [some Methylcobalamin, injections of Hydroxocobalamin but mostly cynocobalamin] as we can't buy B12 Methyl' in tablet form in OZ, the healing period took about 3 years to the stage i am in now, which is pretty close to a full recovery.

I didn't notice much differance at the beggining, symptom wise, but after a few months i had a lot of worsening of symptoms, then it would settle down for a while then off it went off again burning like hell then it would settle down for a while, that happened for about 2 years [approx] then i noticed that the flares were getting shorter and fewer in between until now were i hardly get any burning at all, if i do its only very, very slight burning and my soles of my feet were completely numb most of that time but now i have regained a lot more feeling back in them again.

Differant symptoms or flaring of symptoms can be healing signs, i hope it is in your case.:)

Brian

I have tried....
 

and, tried very hard to find out about this issue....and well, here's what I've learned:

1-it can take seconds or less for miles and miles of nerves to die. The chemistry of it is, well, beyond my humble brain to grasp. I do admit I'm chemistry impaired tho.

2-It is documented that nerves regrow at the rate of 1/2 to 1 cm a MONTH. About a 1/2 to 3/4 inch under IDEAL LAB situations. Research I've read has no clue at all as to which nerves regrow or how...
I've not found a doc that can explain the process, nor a paper nor a description. They plain old don't KNOW - from all I've read.

My take on it is that IF the 'zeeps' are random, they are regenerating. The 'static' you feel is the nerves calling out to the rest of the nerve world: I'm Here! What do I do now....they have to 'connect' and become programmable or be re-programmed. {Is that a word?}. I tell my self that the latter is always the one 'happening'. Because of that, constant attempts at proper therapeutic exercises is important....to tell existing nerves, and help new ones get and keep an idea in their functioning of YOU.

HOpe this helps! - j

When to worry? When the zeeps get to the point that other function aspects are going 'dead' or plain old don't work. Then you call the doc.

Dahlek, Glenn, or?
 

Regarding nerve regrowth - if the nerves are completely gone (my sural nerve biopsy said I had complete loss of almost all large mylinated axons, and most of small) and axon degeneration - can they regenerate? Do you have to have "something" there left to grow, or do new nerves grow?????????:confused:

Axons are the only part of nerves in the PNS that regenerate. CNS nerves don't regenerate at all, well I did read they try, but fail miserably, and if they ever do heal its minimal and takes years. However, in the PNS, if the nerve cell is alive, then axons can regenerate off that cell and heal neuronal pathways. If you lost all your axons, but have the cell body, expect a painful and long recovery, but a recovery.

A question I have been researching as well. My son fractured his neck over the Labor Day weekend (C-5 incomplete burst fracture) and is now a 'quad'.
There seems to be some indication, in at least Spinal Cord Injury circles, that new nerve growth is possble to replace damaged SCI nerves.
It is a very slow (many months or years) and tedious process and involves dedicated therapy (with repeated patterns) to do so. Dr. McDonald seems to think that even if there is no function, repeated therapy will 'awaken' certain functions and regrowth may or may nor occur, but new growth can.
It is similar to the larger branches of a tree that has met an obstacle, growing new smaller branches out of the sides of the main branch and growing around the obstacle
(bad imagery, but I think you get the idea).

We, who have PN, haven't really had successful similar research- but I don't see why the same principles wouldn't apply to damaged nerves in the peripheral system.

The problem is that we cannot do the repeated therapy to 'awaken' very easily. Burning soles of feet, or pain in our legs- is not the same as trying to re-make damaged nerves that involve finger or leg movement.
But with the right type of medications & suppliments, I don't see why we can't try to make the nerves have optimum nutrients and give them the optimum platform so that they can either repair, or let alternate new pathways develop.
There has been some, but not a lot of research in repair of the peripheral system that has been fruitful. Most is concentrated on the central system/spinal column, & surgical implantation techniques involving reprogrammable virgin cellular material (stem cells) that can replace the damaged cells.
Peripheral cells are much smaller and not as easy to work with. But I think that they can be given the right atmosphere to repair and regrow. I think that this does happen, and is happening- in some cases of PN recovery, or at least partial recovery.

Nide
 

Im so sorry to hear about your son. I hope they can help him better then those of up with PN. My Prayers are with you and your family.

I think nerves can grow back but it depends on the cause of why the nerves died or were hurt. A few years ago I fell really hard on concrete trying to help my husband more a big generator, it got away from him and threw me face first down, this was before I had Pn but the Dr said if I waited till the next morning to come in and didnt feel how much this hurt something was wrong then. My orbit of my eye fractured and the bone that holds your eye in was crushed.

I went to the ER the next morning and they took xrays, I had to have an operation immediately or my eyeball would fall out! You should have seen how I looked, half my face was twice its size.

During surgery I woke up and set up, I had told them they better give me enough meds to keep me knocked out , guess they didnt believe I was that tolerant of meds. They got me back under fast and I didnt feel a thing. I read this on the op report that they wer holding my eyeball ekk.

somewhere along the line either the fall or the surgery my nerve that goes from my eye to my lips was damaged. They didnt know if it was permanent or not. The Dr said I would have to wait a long time to see if my nerve repaired itself. Im glad to say that it DID, it took over a year but I can feel the left side of my face not and my lip, dont drool anymore Yah.

So I know personally a nerve can heal its just the cause, sometimes they do sometimes they dont. My Dr said I was lucky my nerve did, and told the Dr I was lucky he caught my eyeball.

Dana

Nide--It's a myth that the cns does not grow new nerve cells. Whether "old" ones are regenerating, I don't know, but I do know, for sure, that the brain grows new cells, and that the thing we learned from Christopher Reeves, was that the spinal cord was capable of healing itself in ways we never thought. For instance, in the brain, the antidepressants, the SSRIs, likely work by causing new growth, especially in the hippocampus. It is likely that the way they relieve depression has NOTHING to do with their effect on serotonin, but rather their effect as a nerve growth factor.

I'm sure much more will be learned about this in the future, especially with research relating to our war veterans. The thing that's clear, however, is that if you don't stimulate nerves, they don't regenerate, so even for damaged nerves, the rule is, use it or lose it.

Nerves......
 

I know I try to use my legs and arms/hands as much as posssible - and even though those nerves are gone - the damage in those areas seems to be holding stable - hopefully because I am pushing myself as much as I can.... I dont know if its beause my body is learning to work without them or???

The autonomic nerupathy though is getting worse - that system seems to have a mind of its own - both my neuro and IVIG pharmacy admit that while IVIG seems to help peripheral symtoms - autonomic doesnt seem to respond..... maybe just much longer regeneration time?????????:confused:

Also, Ca Dana - I have seen some regeneration when I had my wisdom teeth removed - they did not want to take them out 'cause the roots were around the facial nerve on the bottom left and they told me that the right bottom side of my face would go numb for probably a year - they ended up getting infected - had to come up - and just as predicted bottom right side of face (chin, lips, cheek) went completely numb for about a year - did come back though......