Bram, I for one am not offended by what you said. I don't want to bring my religious beliefs into this either so as not offend anyone, but even though I am religious, it doesn't mean I agree with all of their beliefs either. I actually don't. I do believe there is some higher power because we had to come from somewhere. Even in Darwin's theory, someone had to make the monkeys. I think sometimes the rules of the Church are very black and white and life has an awful lot of gray areas in it which makes it hard to abide by all of those rules. I am no Saint and have tried to be a good person, but can't say I have abided by all of those rules. I don't think it's fair to keep someone alive if they are suffering from an incurable disease and want to end the pain. We put animals to sleep when they are suffering from incurable diseases, so why is it so wrong to do the same with people. I have a living will which states that I do not want any extra measures taken to keep me alive when I'm at the end of my life and suffering.
I have a family member that is near the end of her life and she had alzheimers and is like a vegetable. We unfortunately had to put her in a nursing home for her own protection, and they take good care of her. We visit her every week. She is very religious, and she doesn't want extra measures taken either to keep her alive, like feeding tubes, when she can't remember how to eat anymore. My husbands father had alzheimers and when he got to that point he didn't want extra measures taken either and he was also very religious. They both had living wills too. I feel the same way.
And I don't want to offend pro-lifers. I think life is precious, but I believe in pro-choice. Sorry if that offends anyone again, but like I said before, life is not always black and white. I think sparing someone pain from an incurable disease when they are at nearing the end of their life is one of those examples. Anyway, thanks for your opinions. I hope none of us ever get to that point. That is my biggest fear. I want to live, but hope I never get to the point where I'm in so much pain and they can't do anything to stop it. That's where my faith helps me, because it gives me hope that this won't happen. I hope there is a higher power that is merciful enough to keep this from happening. Hope is all I have right now to cling to, since this disease is so rare and incurable and so little is known about it.

Right now it's quality of life that is a big deal. I fear all the time how bad I might get, and that I need to fix something in my life so that I can keep going another 40 years. Planning is hard to do with all of this, and I just want to get to a point where my body will allow me to plan without fear.

I think there is nothing wrong with wanting to die with dignity. I don't want to waste away and end up as a veggie. The only thing that has kept me going so far is my DD.

This is a powerful and such a delicate topic.. I thought I'd share my views.

Personally I think each one of us have can impact the lives of others even when we are hurting, lose our memory or a myriad of other things that happen in life. I also believe that given the chance even in the very last moments we can impart amazing things to someone else's life. Through the tides of life we often find strength when we didn't think we had it, we find courage when it seems we have none left, we find joy in the simple things and a bring a smile to someone else's heart often not even knowing we did. Cut short at the hands of man - all that is taken away... and who know's what part we might have played in that unknown had we stuck around a bit longer. I choose to live with hope- for we never know what tomorrow may bring; good, bad or indifferent there is (in my opinion) hope for tomorrow.

I personally don't think that assisted death is healthy for mankind. Though it is easy to try to put it into a box it still shows weakness and lack of concern for life. I am not talking about extreme measures when life is not possible without human intervention, I am referring only to assisted suicide when life is still possible. I have been witness to children fight pain/cancer and other things that seem impossible to bear but they fought to live stoically and through there fight there lives impacted so many in such positive ways I just cannot fathom the idea of giving up. Many years ago I was also volunteering much of my time at an assisted living center and I can remember at least 4 individuals who impacted my life in an amazing way, even though they weren't making much sense in that moment. The person contemplating suicide is in pain.. that they at that moment don't think will ever go away; should we encourage them to live or show them that when you are in pain you can choose to end it? I say we ought to lead by example and fight to get over the mountain. There are countless stories where people have suffered incredible tragedies or physical disabilities only to go on and lead amazing and powerful lives that touched many. I have to believe that even in my own daily pain/struggle that somewhere along the line my life will touch the heart of someone else and hopefully remind them that they too have strength to survive when darkness falls upon them. I also hope and pray that I will feel joy, love and peace even if it is brief moments in time until I take my last breath.

I believe in LIFE, and I believe in God!! Although this affliction was allowed to affect my life, I believe I will also find the strength through his mercy to endure whatever comes my way and that good will continue to come of it. I am counting my blessings.. and finding ways to focus on the positives (there are some) with each new day. Not saying it is easy or that I am always strong, but I know I have more strength to endure today than I ever thought possible.

LOL. There's me not mentioning God or religion because I was trying not to get into the whole thorny topic! But as both Renee and zook have firmly brought God in...

I feel the need to ask PLEASE that this doesn't get personal or nasty. By responding to a comment I am in no way attacking someone or passing a judgement on their character. I'm just responding.

I didn't raise the subject of God in my post because I don't believe in one, and i rely on my own strength and the support and care of others to get me through the hard times in life. I've found that more helpful than in my earlier life when i couldn't understand why the conversation with god was so one-sided! I didn't say in my first post that I find it very sad that for years, religion made the whole issue of suicide, already a tragic event, into a crime so heinous that families would never mention the victim again or refer to them in any way. In the army deserters were shot because people believed that fear itself was a crime, and that it was cowardly to give in to it. Now we know about post-traumatic stress disorder, and understand the sheer terror and horror that those poor men endured. Maybe some people are just not as strong as others. Should everyone be judged by the abilities of the strongest and those who can tolerate the most suffering?

Of course life is precious, that's the whole reason we fight on against this thing, and the reason that parents care for their children, and a million other examples. I must say that I honestly don't see how making the unbelievably hard decision to end your own life must be seen as weakness or lack of concern for life - although I would never argue that someone in pain has nothing left to contribute to others, I also think that it surely is up to them to decide whether they want to be there setting that example of stoicism and perseverance. Of course there are many people who suffer from tragedy, illness and disease, and who contribute hugely to life in many ways. They are amazing people, I greatly admire them, and I'm sure their contributions give them strength to continue. But at the moment there is no gentle way out for anyone, and even the Dignitas service is long, drawn-out, heart-breaking and distant. I wonder how many of those living 'in extremis' would consider euthanasia if there were a kinder option that they could legally follow - one where they could say goodbye and have the comfort of family if they wanted it, without the guilt of leaving those families with that stigma of suicide to face, without having to find a way by themselves with no help, and without the fear of leaving their families under investigation by the police.

Don't get me wrong please, I'm not talking about children or young people, or anyone who still has a chance of improvement or recovery or even a cure. I'm only thinking of those who have already spent years suffering, and for whom there is no prospect of anything better. Those who are worn down by years of constant pain and suffering, and who cannot bear to spend another day in a body that they can no longer bear. Those who by being denied death, are condemned to daily torture. A compassionate and loving god would surely understand the desire to end such suffering?

Ah, it is thorny and complex, which of course is why there is no consensus of opinion, and so much debate. We are all entitled to our views

Bram.

I am putting my text back in. It went something like this...I don't think it's fair to keep someone alive if they are a vegetable and they don't want to live like that. It should be their choice as to what to do with their lives. I don't think it's a sign of weakness or lack of respect for life, but rather a sign of strength and respect for wanting to die with dignity. And even if there is some joy that person can bring to others by still being around, I don't think it's fair to that person to have to suffer to do that. And I can't help but wonder if healthcare facilities keep people alive after their quality of life is living like a vegetable, just to make money off of them. They charge a huge amount to take care of people like this. I'm not trying to offend anyone or say it's true, but I do wonder if in some places, keeping people alive after their quality of life is gone, is more like a business than something that is done out of kindness. It's just my opinion.

And I'm putting my message back in here too so you all know what Bram was commenting on. I said that I don't believe it's fair to put a child through a painful existence either. If there is a chance of them for example being born with lets say cystic fibrosis, I would not want to bring it into this world. I think life is hard enough without having to come into this world to live in constant pain only to possible die at an early age anyway. I again don't mean to offend anyone, this is just my opinion. And children that are suffering from terminal illnesses like cancer should not have to live if they are in so much pain that their quality of life is nill. I don't think that's fair to the child. That is to say only if that child and their parents feel the same way of course.
I think it's a shame that people are afraid to bring up these topics for fear of being attacked. People should be able to to decide for themselves what to do with their lives and their bodies. Maybe if that were the case, they wouldn't commit suicide on their own and have someone help them die with dignity. And maybe too it that were the case, babies wouldn't be born with horribly painful diseases only to die at an early age anyway. And last but not least, maybe unborn children would not be born and thrown into dumpsters, because their mothers were too ashamed to have terminated their pregnancy early on their pregnancy, because of the way they would be criticized if they did. I'm not saying that I'm trying to promote the ending of life but rather I'm trying to promote the ending of pain and misery. I don't think it's fair for any of us to judge each other, but rather I wish we would help each other out more so that we could make all of our lives a little easier to deal with.

I do want to say that I don't believe that weakness and lack of respect for life are related to wanting to die with dignity. I feel that everyone should have their own choice on what to do with their lives and bodies. This is just my opinion.

Another brave topic Renee....the pro-life thing is a minefield, and I don't think anyone wins in the whole sad business. Except perhaps the private clinics - you are right I think in your cynicism for their priorities at times.

I've always found the right of the unborn child debate very uncomfortable. What is really better for the child? To be terminated before it has been born, or to be another unwanted, possibly abused or neglected child, born into a difficult situation and not really wanted, who has an unhappy childhood and difficult adult life? Again, I think that if the mother wants a termination, after counselling and consideration, then that probably means its better in the end for that unborn child. Of course some women must regret their decision, but I'm betting far more are relieved. Abortion is a tragic thing, but solving it should come down to better birth control and sexual habits, rather than forcing women (and their children) to suffer the results of careless sex, abuse or unwantedly high fertility.

I think both arguments come down to the same thing. What exactly is life? Is it just the action of surviving and breathing in and out, or is it more than that? Is it quality of life?

As with all of this thread, just my opinion and hopefully not upsetting to anyone. Apologies if any of my thoughts offend. This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread, and I'm glad we can have these discussions in a responsible adult way.

Bram.

I don't think any woman wants to wake up one day to say gee, I want to get pregnant by accident and then terminate my pregnancy. It's not a position anyone wants to be in. And their are consequences either way with one's decision. If they keep the baby and can't take care of it, it may suffer a long poverty stricken life or go into the hands of a stranger who adopts it and possible abuses it. If one decides to terminate, they have to live everyday knowing that they ended the life their unborn child. It's not something that any woman wants to have to live with, but sometimes they think that's termination is the lesser of two evils. I tend to agree. Like I said before life is not always black and white. Sometimes, life throws us curve balls. Sometimes accidents happen like an unexpected pregnancy. I do think it's better to terminate preferably within the first trimester, than to have the child and get rid of it by throwing it in a dumpster for fear of being found out. No one wins then. The poor child or the mother.
The same goes for dying with dignity. I don't think wanting to avoid living a life as a vegetable is living and don't see how it can enrich anyone's life. And even if it does, I don't believe it's enriching the person who is suffering. I don't believe it's a weakness to want to die with dignity and a disrespect for life. Quite the contrary. I think dying with dignity makes one respect life more because they know that the quality they are living isn't really quality anymore. And with that it make a person strong enough to know when it's time to let go. Everyone has their own opinion and I erased my earlier texts because I know how heated these topics can get, but you know, I'm putting my thoughts back in because I do take offense to someone telling me that I'm being weak and disrespectful of life because I don't want to be a vegetable. I've always believed that everyone should have control of their own bodies and that everyone should respect each others views. Like I said before, I don't believe we're here to judge each other. And if we are here to enrich each others lives, maybe we should start by respecting each others view, not putting them down. Isn't life hard enough without judging each other too? I think the answer to that is yes.

Gosh, it was not my intention to make anyone feel as if they needed to banter religion or pro-life discussions. I was actually posting my personal "view". I was also trying to highlight that even in suffering beautiful and amazing things can happen for the person going through it and the ones that have been blessed to witness that life.

Regarding my views about God. This is my belief and I take no offense to anyone who doesn't believe in the same but, I shared my view without criticizing or trying to poke at anyone else's beliefs.. I just shared my thoughts that is it. Arguments come from those that speak against the one of differing views and I don't feel I did that in my post at all.

Shoot in this horrid condition I am happy for whatever belief a person has, if it helps them through it!!

Also, I wasn't judging anyone for anything whether that was religion, pro-choice or whatever again, I just shared my views and sadness that people do give up. My comment about weakness was regarding assisted suicide as there is no way to really compare one person's suffering from another so once we open the door to this (in my opinion) it breeds "an easy way out" instead of fighting to live or overcome. Shoot if people start giving up in big numbers then why would research continue for things?

Unwanted pregnancy, suicide and many other things that cause people to feel shame, guilt etc., is awful but, I don't think encouraging loss of life is the answer.. but.. that is my view not that I expect everyone or anyone to agree just my view. I like lifting people up, helping people find ways to overcome not give up.. that is just the way I am. Sorry if that offends anyone.