Your words are fine - not bad at all. In fact they're pretty cussed good. There are web pages devoted to How to Describe Pain using enormous lists of adjectives that don't come close.

Doc

Hi Ginnie,

Yes, I wish people never had to make these decisions, but worse still is someone else making decisions for them.

My pain is... (I don't like to talk about it much) fluctuating. My wife spent most of a day working on a trigger point so I could go out for a few hours yesterday. It worked; I got through the day despite its ups & downs; it was badly needed. Today I'm recovering, and the triggerpoint is rearing its ugly head (more like backside) again....

I don't mean to (oh, what's the word... make less of a situation) but a foot is different (less complicated) than a spine. I think I would have less trepidation about it than spine surgery (but I'm speaking from ignorance) but I get it. I have impingements in both shoulders that I've been ignoring for a couple years now. Every few months they get better for a time, so I think surgery won't be necessary. I guess maybe I'm not really at that crossroads yet, or maybe just in denial.

Doc

RE: Help is on the way
 

Time to Act: Notwithstanding the amount of medication I still have to take,surgery was still a great idea. I also had a massive C2-C7 neck fusion. Just take tylenol for that now. Neuropathic discomfort is barely treatable. Just stay active on Neurotalk.

Good Luck,
RX

Re: decisions/Doc. Smith
 

You are right Dr. smith. A foot is not the same issue as spinal problems. For me it is an additional problem I sure didn't want. I just don't want another surgery, I am tired of them, the whole dog gone thing. I am going to have to do the joint replacement, or it will take my walking away from me. The pain doc. upped my medication until I can get into surgery. I have to heal first from oral surgery, and get an endoscopy. My barretts' esophagus is worse than a year ago, despite a double proton pump inhibitor. I need it checked out to feel comfortable about another surgery. I can't seem to stay out of trouble. I feel blue.
I am sorry about your pain too. I am glad your wife helps you. I am not sure what the therapy is that she does, but if it gets you outside and walking that is a blessing. My spine is pretty good, pain is tolerable. take care Dr.Smith, and I will try to do the same. ginnie

Dear RX
 

I am glad your massive fusion worked out good for you too. I still have some pain but it is tolerable. I had C3-7, wasn't that fun?....nope!.....I don't know about you but I hurt for quite awhile for my recovery time. ginnie

Horatio, glad your fusion went well, and at least that it is controlled with tylenol. That is a definite plus!

Doc, thanks for the confirmation on my elementary description of nerve spasm pain. That's the most graphic way I could come up with to describe it. Doc, it sounds as if you have a very dedicated loving wife to help you. That can make just a world a difference, and I don't mind saying I wish everyone had that in time of major health troubles - myself included. Stress upon stress is no way to fly.........

Miss Ginnie - Okay, enough now - your probs need to just chill out :) - & here's sincerely wishing that they do just that!! My sis-in-law recently had her 3rd ankle surgery by a superb dr., she now has a bionic ankle, and is walking really well. First 2 surgeries were performed by the same doc who was....how shall I say.....pure quack. We just don't appreciate those appendages, feet that is, until one of those little piggies start to squeak! Understand your feeling blue....hope that passes with the next breeze. I know you must be a very positive person by nature....how else could anyone read this forum day after day as you do and post such uplifting remarks for others?

Wishing all a peaceful evening............

Hi Sea horse
 

thanks for your post. I appreciate you asking my body to chill out on the problems. I will go get this blasted surgery, and get over with. It will be OK.
I come here because of the support I get too, with just such an issue. When you see some of the other problems people have, it makes you a bit humble. I learned that from this site for sure. When we join forces it makes all the troubles less. We are not alone. I hope your next appt. goes well. I believe you said it was your pain specialist going to give you another opinion. I saw my pain specialist today, he said yeppers, I need this joint replaced. The two docs did talk, which to me is a real good thing. Let me know how your appt. goes and what he says about your spine condition. take care seahorse.ginnie

Miss Ginnie, the appointment this Friday is with the neurosurgeon, not the pain specialist. I've already seen the pain specialist, and an orthopedic surgeon. Those two are in agreement that surgery is needed, hence the 3rd opinion and trip to the neurosurgeon - possibly the one who will perform the surgery. I will make the hour+ trip unmedicated so he can see the quivering pathetic mess I am minus the pain meds. Whoo-hoo, are we having fun yet???

Yes, I totally agree with you, that reading forums like this and seeing others' problems can be humbling when compared to our own. Spine issues are a witch, but it's not like brain injuries or cancer or HIV that other poor souls are suffering with. We (I) should be more aware of our blessings, but it IS good to have a place to come whine, talk, share information & our experiences, cry, or generally have a pity party when needed!

Many well wishes for your upcoming surgery Miss Ginne. So sorry you have to go through it at all.

Re: Friday appt.
 

Hi sea horse, I will be thinking about you on friday. If this is the third opinion, that agrees, well I think you will be in the OR. I am sorry you have to go through it at all. Let me know how many levels your doctor intends to do. I already know you are prepared with a list of questions to ask. I hope he is nice and has compassion. I loved my second neruo surgeon. Brilliant man who pieced my neck back together. I also hope you own surgery doesn't hurt so much. My results are good, and you have every reason to believe your own results will be good too. I know how frightened you can get, so I am here anytime you want to talk about it. I sure talked my head off the week before I went in for it. Take care Sea horse, you will be in my prayers for Friday, and everyday. ginnie

Seahorse,

As always, just my own opinion.... I'd be inclined to give somewhat less weight to the pain specialist's opinion on surgery than the other two, but I'm really glad you're getting opinions from both an orthopedic and neurosurgeon.

I'm not sure it's such a good idea to make that trip unmedicated. You won't be able to think clearly/straight, and anything you say could be (or be construed as) the drugs (or lack of) talking. The doc should/will base his opinions on your records, films, and an exam - not on "the quivering pathetic mess" without meds. He'll know the difference, and that you're supposed to take those meds around the clock, and it could appear fishy if/that you're not taking them as prescribed (Stockpiling? Diverting?) Be honest, and talk about the pain and its effect on your day-to-day life, activities, family, etc. - just as if you're talking to a pain specialist.

Google: neurosurgeon first visit for more

I hope there is someone you'll be able to bring to the appt. to help with memory, notes, questions, etc.

Good luck & best wishes,

Doc

Hey Doc - thanks for the post and the google.
As far as going unmedicated to the neuro, my reasoning is the same as when I went to see the pain specialist anesthesiologist. He and his nurses conveyed that it was a good idea. Hope the neuro feels the same way and does not construe it, as I'm pretty blunt (too much so sometimes I fear), no pretensions. I will take the actual bottles of medications with me so he can see dates & number of pills. If he is one to construe, then he's not the man for me anyway.

Thanks too for hoping there will be someone to assist me. That will be me. Despite "quivering pathetic mess" I have to focus, because I know IT MUST BE DONE and I have no choice. "Ole Cuss" will be driving - that's all I can/do expect from that direction. Man oh man is that going to be a long trip for him. Oops, my teeth are showing...........

That's different. So why hope/guess/assume? Call the neuro's office and ASK. Why put yourself through that if it's not necessary?

(Not for nothing, but bringing bottles doesn't necessarily mean anything. A stockpiler/diverter would just take the extras out and leave them home. I'm not suggesting in any way that you are - I'm just saying....)

Doc

Doc - never knew that about a stockpiler/diverter. Matter of fact, I've never known that sort at all. Guess I must have kept good company in life. :)

Good advice Doc. Yep, neuro wants me unmedicated, and bring the med bottles, and I can take meds as soon as consult is over. Appt. is at 1:45 tomorrow. Gonna be one of THOSE days....but....I can, and will get through it!!

Re: your appt. tomorrow
 

I will be thinking of you tomorrow seahorse. Hope something positive come out of all of it. Hang in there. I will pray he is a good and compassionate doctor. ginnie

Miss Ginnie, thank you.
Although I know it will be okay, I can't help being petrified, but I'm hanging in there. Where did I see that quote..."Enjoy when you can, endure when you must".
Life requires a lot of endurance sometimes.

Hi seahorse
 

I was terrified too! I was shaking and did have to take zanax. I cried, I trembled, I shook my fist at God. I came here, and that helped! I had alot of people giving me support before the proceedure. No quesiton, when I first came here, my fingers were trembling over the keys. I could bearly type, and I was crying out of fear. I had had one failed surgery, I sure didn't want to go through another! It worked though, really worked! I don't have any of the pain I did before in my neck and arms. I continue to do really good. Just keep talking out your fears, and getting back here to talk. It is going to be OK seahorse. I believe you are going to get positive outcome, and that your life will get back on track before you know it. Its OK to be scared, Lord knows none of it is easy to go through. Just don't forget, the outcome is going to be worth your fears. I am here for you. ginnie

Welcome to the forum! I too, am new here as of yesterday. I find your accessment likened to that of a trained, certified doctor....as we experience these issues we become knowledgeable in our anatomy. Congrats.
I have suffered over 25 years with spinal issues and as recent as the last three years have dealt with this leak, but didn't know of such a diagnosis until this past month. I had did as the doctors had taught me and refer it to just ailments from spinal conditions.
So, I guess in an essence I have become an expert as far as my own body is concerned. I've learned to research, reach out to others and become accustom to daily chronic pain.
You see I was taught you are to work hard and you will have something to show for it! Oh, yes..tis true but the only thing besides 'possessions' that I have to show for it is a torn asunder spine...carpal tunnel, cubital tunnel and other issues. My poor body is so wretched.
I am currently dealing with misdiagnosis after misdiagnoisis to the point now I want to scream out from the torture of constant pain. If it was not for my "FAITH" in GOD, my hope would have diminished long ago.
So, the neuro appt I received this week from a doctor who was booked up for three months in advance was a GODSEND! So, I am assembling documentation research and the arm's length worth of sympoms to overwhelm him with. But it is needed in order to get satisfaction and closure of my treatment/diagnosis.
So, I bid you strength in your pain, hope in your trials.

It just keeps getting better (insert sarcasm here). Appt. today was for 1:45, saw the dr. at 3:30. With traffic, we made it home at 6:30. Am in no shape to write about the news given today. Will return when I can collect myself.

Thank ya'll for the good wishes and kind posts.

Re: worried
 

I am worried about you, of course I am. When you can, and have thought things over, please let me know what the doctor said. I truely care about you and so hope that your issues can have a good outcome. I am here for you anytime to talk to. I will keep you in my prayers tonight. I really do pray. I hope you have a good support team at home with you too. Be at peace as much as you can. ginnie

Miss Ginnie, I do so appreciate your prayers and posts immensely.

Here's how it went:
He said that he could "fix" the nerve pain in my legs with an 80% chance of a good outcome.
He "could" fuse my back now with a 50 percent chance of a good outcome or no change or the pain could be worse afterward, but right not now he could see nothing in the MRI reading that would definitively cause the level of back pain that I have, and the back pain outweighed my leg pain (although when asked to rate leg to back pain on their questionnaire, I said 50 / 50). Maybe he made his assertation from the fact I never sat down while he was talking to me - I was either leaning over a table or squatting in the floor). He wants to do a CAT as he suspects there is a hidden fracture which may or may not have healed - incorrectly healed by itself on the anterior (the side of the spine facing your front) and that is what is causing the level of back pain - mostly....
He also said that he does not prescribe drugs unless he does surgery on a patient BUT he could send me to his physiatrist (I had to look this word up - not sure I'm spelling it correctly here either) i.e., another doctor, another bill. That in itself leaves me up the creek, as I have been taking Percocet and Gabapetin for 3 months now in order to halfway function, and both require weaning off of. He said "then we have a problem". ???????

As far as his bedside manner, he could have checked his ego at the door. Young guy, granted he does practice at a major highly rated facility and obviously Highly educated (he made a point of stating he treats cancer patients - very honorable of him - but what does that have to do with anything right this minute?), only been practicing for 5 years. He talked about money and cost more than either of the other 2 doctors I've seen. One of those was a pain specialist anesthesiologist who did the epidural and told me I needed surgery. This dr. totally disregarded any opinion that guy had. I guess the anesthesiologist's MD is not as important as HIS MD. He said I expect alot, but I have no insurance yet here I am in his clinic. My thought was "I just paid a $1000 UPFRONT to be here in YOUR overly decorated CLINIC" but of course I kept my mouth shut.

The fact I do not have insurance is as messed up as my back. I rightfully take the fault for no insurance.

I did not schedule the CAT - which would be done in HIS CLINIC. Need to mull over all this some.

Re: I don't like his attitude
 

The numbers are good as far as outcome, but I didn't like the majority of what he said to you at all. You are correct, the fact that he does cancer people has nothing to do with you. Dear woman, if it were me, I may have had to get another opinion again. The fact that he refused medication unless he himself did surgery, is trying to push you into surgery. Rather he should have laid your options out in front of you, and say, "these are the best solutions that I can come up with" or something like that. You can always go to a pain specialist until the time you decide that the surgery is right for you. If you did not feel comfortable with him now, he won't do anything to reduce your anxiety over your surgery. I have become a bit cynical I guess, I am sorry I feel that way. It's just if someone is going to do surgery on me, especially a part like my spine, I best like the guy. Did you like him at all? My first neuro dismissed me, I said no to him. Well thats Ok by me. I found another, who happened also to be a humble man of faith. He did not threaten me, or intimidate me eithor. I am picky on doctors as it is my life they are messing with. I really want to know if you liked him. What did you feel? I hope you get back to me soon, I really care about you. I have a great deal of empathy for those who suffer with back and neck problems as I have been in the same shoes. Am I being to hard with my opinion? I am sorry if I in anyway offended by what I said. ginnie

One more thought
 

One more thought. I had no insurance with my first neuro too. He did not do all he should have done with my first surgery. I think it was because I had no insurance. That is why I wound up re-doing the first surgery and adding all the rest of it later, when I had medicare finally. there was a six year break inbetween where I was suffering like you are. I didn't like him as he talked "down" at me. I was suffering, so I went along with just about anything to get out of pain. After the surgery, when I went back and said the pain was still there, he got all huffy with me and demanding a test I did not want to take. (EMG) I'll be darned if I am going to pay to be tortured. so thats when he said, "If you don't, then I have no other solution for you" That ending that doctor. The neuro who finally fixed me, was a compassionate humble man, soft spoken a re-assuring. He well realized I was in trouble, and he treated me very kindly. You need that kind of doctor, with whom you have a repor with, one that you are comfortable with. I am spoiled with what I found. I want that kindness and compassion for you. ginnie

Miss Ginnie, you have very insightful replies!

Did I like the neuro? No. Did I get the feeling that he is qualified? Yes. It's always been a plus for me if I like my dr., but not actually a requirement. My GP that I've had for years - don't particularly like him, but I know he'll always do right by me. I'm not inviting him over for dinner though.

Perhaps this guy will "humble down" some as he ages - perhaps not. One more pointer that he made was that his reputation and the reputation of the major facility he works for depends on his decisions and the work he does. Wrong way to put - in my book anyway - BUT he thinks so highly of himself he wouldn't do a shabby job for fear his reputation as a surgeon and the reputation of his facility might take a hit. Not the proper reason to do a good job but who cares as a long as the best job he can do gets done? I did not feel as though he was pushing me into surgery though, not near as much as the first OS that I saw. That one said laminectomy so quick - again, wrong bedside manner - but all 3 have said surgery required, so I no longer feel surgery is being pushed on me. This latest one - I don't believe - would have pushed surgery simply because I did get the definite impression that he'd prefer to weed out non-insurance holders from the get-go and not do any surgery on us. Regarding what you said about a doctor talking down to you, this guy kept saying "you're not understanding me" and I'd say "yes I understand, but...", then he'd make the same statemnet again, and again, until finally I said "I'm sorry, I'm not expressing myself clearly.." - HINT, HINT, but he didn't get it. The only time I saw him soften somewhat was when I started to cry. Couldn't help it, and frankly didn't care.

Now as far as a rock and a hard place - I cannot financially keep doctor shopping. This guy had to have the $1000 upfront not when I got there, it had to be paid via phone prior to the appointment even being made. The pain specialist - which I no longer feel is an option - flat out said he didn't think he could do me any good. Said he didn't think epidurals would be beneficial, and the one he did was not. He won't do more. Perhaps if I beg and plead with him to continue the meds till High Horse makes his decision - I don't know - you know how doctors don't like to treat when there's another dr. in the pot. And the dang fact of the matter is, I hate, despise, the pill taking. I want to feel healthy and be active LIKE I WAS, but that "ain't" happening and I can't take those dang NSAIDs and have not been able to for 25 years, they make my stomach feel like its bleeding. Doctors have always had an issue with all my medication allergies / reactions - everything they like to prescribe frontline, but I cannot help that!

I don't know what to do at this point.
But Miss Ginnie, thank you for reading and responding so insightfully to my lengthy, rambling, what's got to be BORING posts. They even bore me! Do you remember that tv program "Lives of the Rich and Famous"? Perhaps we have a premise for a new program called "Lives of the Poor and Disgusted". :)

Re: here for you
 

You post was not boring at all. I can feel when a person is really having a tough time. We all need someone at times like that. I also know about the money situation, didn't have the insurance eithor. I think I was charged something like $800 for my evaluation up front too. If you think he can do the job, and do it well, I guess I would still not like him, but go ahead with it. Money is a problem as it was for me. Thats why there was no more help for me until I got medicare. Let me know what you decide. I just wish he had a better personality to put you at ease. The whole thing can be nerve racking, and I get so jittery anyway. Do you have a good friend at home, to help you during the hospital stay, and at home? That will help in a big way too. Why can't these real intelligent doctors become a little more compassionate? It seems to me that this element goes missing from their training sometimes. Maybe they should come here to NT and really hear from us, what they are like through the eyes of scared patient. I do think you will be just fine with this doctor. He is most likely smart as a whip and equally as skillful. I will be keeping you in my prayers, do keep in touch, ginnie

Miss Ginnie - Good advice - these doctors should read these posts! One more thing about this Dr. High Horse....I had two pages typed up with dates of doctors visits, what was advised, list of current symptoms, pertinent info that I handed to him, and his response was "I don't want that - everything here is computerized". In other words, I wasted my time.

I don't know what I'm gonna do.

Regarding help, support at home. My 87 year old mother, who's had cataract and valve replacement surgery in the past year and half, has had 3 minor strokes and my sister, who lives with her and has had bypass surgery, has diabetes, and has had mini strokes, lives about 30 minutes away. They need no additional stress. My brother lives about 1 hr. 15 minutes away has an auto-immune disease (pemphigoid & pemphigus) and that can be flared by stress. I love them all too much to overload them with my situation.

Here at home I have what's called a functioning alcoholic, he works, but the minute he's off - and I do mean the very minute, even when he gets in the car to drive home, he dives into the bottle. This has developed in the last 3 years. I'm not fun to him - I don't drink and I won't start in order to please him. Per him, he does not have a problem with alcohol....he has a problem with anyone who wants him to stop. Per him, alcohol is all he's got and he loves booze more than anything else in the world. Those are his exact words.

So, do I have support here at home.....no. I've gotten more support from you and people like you on this computer than I can or will ever get here at home.

support for seahorse
 

Hello, I am watching the second game. I am going to post tomorrow to you in PM more about this current post you sent me, about support. I will be here for you, and we will talk alot more. I will be back tomorrow I promise, Have a good night. ginnie

Just wondering how you guys who haven't had surgery, or waiting for surgery, handle HAVING to lie down several times during the day? It drives me bananas! I push, push, until my body demands "you must lie down for a little while" but my mind says this, this, and this needs to be done. I DID vacuum 3 times weekly, what with a cat and dog that sheds constantly despite daily brushings, but it's come down to once a week now. The maid hasn't shown up in five years now.....don't think she's coming back. Just can't get good help these days :).

Re: trapped
 

Being stuck in bed, when most of us have that get up and go personality is the most difficult part. I have cried, and raged over it. I so much want to do stuff just like you do. I would rather clean the house and change the litter box, than be stuck in bed, waiting....bahumbug.....I will be in touch. ginnie

Oh it's so frustrating isn't it! I over did yesterday, vacuumed, mopped & walked the dog for 45 minutes late yesterday evening. Normally it would be an hour, but a sharp pain put an end to it. It's 11:10 this morning & other than feeding the dog, letting him out, loading the dishwasher, and making 1 important call, I haven't gotten a dang thing accomplished. Before, I would have 25 things done by noon. I'm going to lie down now....aaaarrrgghh!!

Thanks for your messages -full of common sense and good advice. I've read them all and will get back to you later on, promise.

I handle it one day at a time. A lot of people in chronic pain just aren't the same people we used to be. How we've adapted?... any way we can - whatever it takes. Any/all future plans are tentative. I don't make promises I can't keep, so I don't make promises anymore.

Between chronic pain and all the associate crap that goes along with it, clocks/time don't mean much anymore. I don't think I'll ever reach that grief stage of "acceptance", but I have accepted dealing with erratic scheduling. I didn't sleep last night, so I'll sleep when I'm ready. I try to go to sleep and wake up at regular times, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Some days I make it all the way through; others I'm so hammered I need one, two, three naps, and I still feel hammered, and still need another full night's sleep following (if I can get it). I know that one bad day of flairing can/will take up to three days to get back "on schedule" if that happens. So the only things I push myself to do are the ones that really are imperative - the doctor appointments (a few other things, but not much).

Reading this over, it sounds pretty dismal/gloomy, but to me it's not. I guess that's where my acceptance comes in; this is who I am now, and if not entirely comfortable with it, I've stopped stressing over it, and that's a tremendous burden lifted.

It's my wife who's going through the adjustment now. She's recently retired, and a lot of this didn't affect her because she was gone 9-12 hours a day. The first few times I had an off-schedule day since then, she got really mad because I was up all night and slept most of the next day. Lots of talking and I think she's adapting. Last night I was up again, and my biggest worry wasn't the pain, the anxiety, or the aftermath; it was stressing because I knew she was going to be mad at me again for something I couldn't control. It was different this time; I think we're ok. Having her own medical issues, she's getting it now. If the errands/chores don't get done today, they'll get done when they get done.

Doc

Promises.....I heard that! I missed the family Thanksgiving, the Christmas. And clocks, oh yes, I'm learning may as well throw them out. AND, regarding flair, today the Northern Lights were coming from my couch after too much activity yesterday. Need to go to bed now....

You're a good man Doc, for worrying about your wife!

In summation, get through this any way we can.....but at this point it's still driving me bonkers. Thanks for the post!

Well, I do worry about her - sure, but in this instance, I was more scared of her (reaction). I can't, don't, and won't deal with stress and confrontation the way I used to. Life is too short, and I'm not going to spend the rest of whatever I have left stressing over the small stuff.

Driving us bonkers is, I think, part of the process.
It's part of the process....
It's part of the process....
It's part of the process....
;)

Doc

Oh Doc, in my book that you even THOUGHT of her is ADMIRABLE!!! Yessirree, small stuff will drive us to the cracker factory, IF WE LET IT (I must remember this more often)!

just an update.....GOD IS GOOD! I currently have a CAT scan scheduled for tomorrow but not with the hospital that the last neuro works with. The CAT is through a more financially amenable facility (unfortunately this facility does not have an affordable neuro tho). The report will be sent to the unaffordable neuro (I want a copy in hand as well). That neuro said during my appointment that he could POSSIBLY tell me via phone what he would recommend after a CT. Cannot afford to retain him for any sort of surgery BUT at least I am getting the recommended CAT. GOD IS GOOD!, so it has already been a good day!

I will have an MRI and a CAT in hand. Now all I need is a doctor. I just keep on chipping.........and Trusting.

Does anyone know about the connection between stress and pain level increase? How does that work? The psychology(sp?) of that is a mystery to me.

Re: pain and stress
 

That is exactly why I worry about you seahorse. The connection to more pain with stress does happen. The more stress you are under, the worse the pain gets. Maybe Doc. can answer why. In my own life, I KNOW that happens.
ginnie:hug:

The Vicious Cycle
 

The self-perpetuating downward spiral - or "vicious cycle" as it's called/known - of pain, stress, depression, and insomnia (and sometimes other factors) is very well-documented. I've written and given presentations about it more times than I can recall. (But I still have to google to find links :o)

http://www.nwedbmed.com/chronicpain.html
http://www.whatworksforpain.com/2010...-chronic-pain/
http://www.my-spine.com/back-pain-an...-distress.html
http://rachicks.com/ra-pain-chronic-...vicious-cycle/

... Just to sample a few.

Google: "vicious cycle" pain depression stress (include the "quotes") for many more.

Doc

Worry
 

That is exactly why I worry about you ginnie - you worry too much! :p

http://www.quotegarden.com/worry.html

Doc

Will try not to worry
 

Thanks Doc. I do have a prayer list going. I try to put my worries into prayer. Sometimes I hear of situations that truely make my own problems look very small. Have a good day doc. You are on my list too! ginnie

Scroll down to the last quote on that link/page. ;)

Doc