Hello, Waves: I want to thank you for your insightful and challenging note.

Ah, yes, the question of rationalization... Is that all I am doing? I doubt everything I write and think; I doubt even my own doubt about everything I write and think -- even these words right now.

You cut to the chase: isn't all this really a matter of getting it over with sooner rather than later? I just got back from the post office and the bank and the grocery store, an hour or so in all; through it all, I found myself on the verge of being out of breath, having to rest, feeling pains, rigid, my muscles being "boarded up" for what? An approaching hurricane? When does this end? When? I just wrote in my calendar: "I want to end the end, before the end ends me." If that is what I am rationalizing, then so be it. I look out onto the horizon: I see myself incapacitated, unable to enjoy life's simplest pleasures like going for a walk in the woods. Every task, every move (getting out of bed), is more and more a burden -- which makes me a burden to everybody else. Such is the objective reality I believe I am facing. And so...

Regarding suicide versus "taking one's own life" -- the problem is, the latter can never be entirely free of the former. Even Jesus -- the maximum case of a non-suicide, take (in his case "give")-your-own-life death -- cried out on the cross: maybe, just maybe, God had foresaken him. Anger? Despair? Sounds to me like he doubted everything, even his suffering; maybe literally, in the end, for a split second, he just wanted to die sooner rather than later.

Looking into this further: I suspect that the seed of suicide is planted very early, certainly in childhood if not infancy. It is the child's way to strike back at the parents; what other weapon does the child have other than to say I'll show you; you'll regret it when I'm dead. So, maybe suicide is a sort of self-defense mechanism; after all, in every other way the adults are physically so much stronger, the child doesn't stand a chance against them. Anyway, from there the seed develops in many different ways, but the original trappings are never entirely lost. And so, as we look at the elderly people in the 4corners tape who desire to end their own lives, all very rational and calm and understandable, STILL there is that grain of anger, of childish anger. I think it's there inside me; I just don't want it to control things.

Where we MAY differ, I'm not sure: I don't think when we die there is anything "back there." I am not religious in that sense. Heaven, hell, limbo: I'm not convinced they exist. Ergo, I don't need to justify taking my life in order to go to one place and not the other. In any event, nobody can convince me the 200 people who jumped to their deaths in the burning World Trade Center committed suicide, committed some sort of sin. And what of somebody who is burning to death from an incurable disease? Or, what if the burn is tolerable, only barely so? Lots of degradations in there.

Finally, waves, you note you look for a purpose -- helping others -- your "life touches others." Indeed, there is no taking that back. They say there are no absolutes; however, it is absolutely true that a given moment cannot be relived. If you help someone, you help that person; that fact can NEVER be taken away. It is there, and absolutely so. And so...I see no recourse but to try to make the most of our moments while we can. Unfortunately, I don't see how being a physical burden to other people fits into that plan. Maybe it does; I don't see how. Not yet, at any rate.

Keep making waves, Waves.

Hugs to you, too. Oceans of 'em.

Tom

Hello, Waves: no bounds were overstepped, no offense anywhere in sight -- and then some.

You raise a valid point, that's all: when do we, in trying to help others, project onto them our own traits (usually negative, but not always), thereby muddling up the picture even further? The unconscious is such a tricky thing; in fact, Jung notes, one of its archetypes is the trickster figure, the guy inside you that makes you say something stupid or hurtful that you didn't really "mean," that makes you lose your carkeys, that makes you make stupid typos in important manuscripts -- the list, apparently, never ends.

Bestest to you, waves. You're forming some beautiful beaches.

Hot off the press -- of Wikipedia, that is. This is their article on "Rational Suicide."

"Rational suicide is the reason-guided decision to end one's life, specifically, when these reasons are the result of an indifferent or temperate weighing of pros and cons. It has been argued that a suicide can be rational and still nonetheless be a mistake.[1] Rational suicide is sometimes viewed as a subjective concept; Jerome Motto writes, "What may be an inconvenience, a source of discomfort, or an embarrassment to one person represents unbearable agony, excruciating pain, or intolerable humiliation to another."[2] One study of mental health counselors found that 80% of respondents were moderately supportive of the idea that people can make well-reasoned decisions that death is their best option.[3] It is believed that in coming years clinicians will increasingly be confronted by patients declaring their intention to exercise their right-to-suicide or to commit what they describe as a rational suicide.[4] The “received orthodoxy” of mental health professionals for more than a century views all suicides as irrational and holds that suicidal persons should always be prevented from ending their own lives.[5]"

My immediate reaction: "indifferent or temperate weighing of pros and cons." Sorry, I don't see how when your life is at stake, you can be "indifferent." As for "temperate," maybe that's in the eye of the beholder: someone may SOUND termperate (including me) and maybe truly think they are, when in reality it is their unconscious that is running the show, and all their quaint rationalization is so much window-dressing.

I think there is, as Waves point out, a semantic problem. What is "suicide," anyway? Merriam Webster Dictionary: "The act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind." Sorry, that sounds counter-intuitive to me: a 20-something who is depressed and unemployed, gets drunk and shoots himself, commits suicide. Of course the word "especially" creates a fudge-factor, so I don't know what that definition is saying in the end, if anything.

Here's another definition, from the Medical Dictionary: "The act of causing one's own death." Simple, no? In fact, too simple. Sorry, but the 200 people who leaped from the burning Twin Towers thereby caused their own deaths; however, they did not commit suicide. The latter is the official government ruling, by the way. I can see how the insurance companies would love the Medical Dictionary's hopelessly broad definition; usually, they don't have to pay out if a death is officially ruled a "suicide."

Well, I suspect much of the problem is there -- what is "suicide" in the first place? All the existing definitions I have seen are inadequate in one way or another. Note carefully: serious economic concerns, notably insurance companies, and megabucks are in play in forming such definitions ("organic" and "poverty" are two others), so watch out!

Trying to look at the question on a "pure" level: my gut hunch tells me that Websters has it upside down -- that "rational suicide" is an oxymoron, i.e., somebody who takes their life rationally does NOT commit suicide. "Intention," "voluntary," well, such words keep popping up. There's something to them, but they haven't come together to form a coherent definition -- not yet. Until they do, we literally "don't know what we are talking about."

I suspect we're looking at a "syndrome," literally a group of things "running together." Not all of them need to be present to have a "suicide."

A lack of Perceived choice is all that's required

Or maybe a clouded perception of the choices

may be its fee will after all.....in all of its frailties....

free will has no age barrier.............


Suicide, Euthanasia, Ending personal life what ever you call it, the later being a word used to dress up the former, to make it appear warranted or acceptable

Tom the 200 that jumped off the world trade centre..were murdered........kamikaze pilots were murders.....suicide bombers...murderers.....

The point is suicide is an act of independently taking of one life.... your own.....

Was the guy at WAKO Texas a spiritual leader or did he advocate mass murder [forcing his congregation to kill themselves]

Euthanasia.........is there already...........just stop taking meds, help, care......have a DNR card.....even a nil by mouth card.......join the Jehovah's witness and Carry no blood card.................its already out there


Clinics helping euthanasia........are they good bad...evil....helpers or just those who assist in death therefore is it assisted suicide or assisted murder............

David

just debating and nothing else

The Twin Towers

maybe i am just ignorant... maybe there is someone who survived to tell the tale and the thought processes of the 200 people who jumped out of the burning, crumbling twin towers? but since i have not read any such account, i am left to speculate. i think that is what others are doing also, but if that is not the case, and someone has a more direct account, i'd like to hear it.

so, my "impression" of what happened is this:

building on fire. things crashing burning all over the place. fight or flight response. you can't fight what is happening. flight takes over:

furthermore, i doubt that the folks who jumped sat there to contemplate their odds. i do not think they "preferred" to "shorten their lives" by a few minutes, over accepting an agonizing death being burned fumigated or crushed.

i believe they simply, instinctively, RAN AWAYYYY from death!!! nothing more. and the windows were the only place they could run, period.

inside = fire heat smoke and falling ceilings walls flying rubble metal glass etc.

outside = clear, clean air

WHICH SEEMS MORE LIFE-PROMOTING????

and if anyone did have the time/presence of mind to stop and think... they'd have to think, if i stay here i die. if i jump, i have a small chance of surviving possibly as a paraplegic or whatever but SURVIVING. and who knows a truck carrying bales of hay might drive by at just the right time....

i believe those people intended to LIVE to the best of their ability, and FLED FROM DEATH, no more no less. and as such, no! of course they did not commit suicide!!!!

-------------------

Suicide, definition, connotation, culture, "ok-ness"

i believe the medical dictionary is accurate, missing only the word "intention" - suicide is intentionally causing one's own death. FOR WHATEVER REASON. Harakiri is Japanese ritual suicide... it is considered noble in that culture... it is still considered suicide. our notion of honor does not involve killing oneself.

Tom if you feel killing yourself is reasonable, then what does it matter if it is called suicide or taking your own life? my previous comments, about rationalization, had nothing to do with religious concerns - sorry if that threw you off. i only made a case example that happened to involved concerns with the afterlife but it makes no difference. even a staunch atheist can have strong feelings against suicide. it is only natural.

what is clear to me, is you have some serious "concerns" with suicide. you seem to be driven to prove that taking your own life isn't suicide. and wanting to dissociate self-killing that "makes sense" from suicide. i interpret this drive as being founded on a basic belief of the contrary: that deep down you abhor the idea of suicide... and you need to call what you want to do something else... so you won't be doing something you abhor. but the words won't save you. the act is the same. yes, your reasons for desiring to end life are more concrete than those of a 20-year old in the throes of depression. that doesn't mean it should be "called" something else.

the fact that you can't deal with the word - i think that needs to give you a big clue that there is a hefty and i daresay HEALTHY resistance to causing-death, in you... your survival instinct manifesting itself.

~ waves ~

so well put, David, thank you.

Great conversations between you three...and I don't hear any doors (minds) slamming shut!

Hello, David:
Is euthanasia murder? I've looked up numerous definitions of "murder." The thing they all have in common is that murder is an ILLEGAL act. In Switzerland, there is no law against euthanasia; therefore, it is not murder. We cannot apply our legal perspective to them and say "You're wrong! What you're doing is murder!" -- or vice-versa. Similarly, in the vast majority of U.S. states, euthanasia is illegal; therefore, in those states, euthanasia is murder. (I'm not sure about Oregon, hence my wording). So, "murder" is a socially-defined act; there is no "murder" outside of legal definitions.

In brief, what is "murder" in one place is not "murder" in another. That's the way it is.

Suicide is a more complicated matter. It has dimensions outside of any known legal framework.

You bring up a vital element: choice. "Lack of a perceived choice." Or, "a clouded perception of the choices." I'd argue the 200 people who leaped from the burning Twin Towers had no choice -- not a real one (burning to death or jumping to your death: what kind of REAL choice is that?). Those people, as you say, did not commit suicide; they were murdered. NO CHOICE = nonsuicide.

O.K., what about the person in pain suffering from an incurable disease? Sure, the "fire" surrounding that person is different that that of the Twin Towers -- but it's still a fire. Again, what are we to say to such people? Don't do anything drastic -- wait? (By the way, that's what the people in the Twin Towers were told). I think the 20-something depressed guy has choices not available to the 80-year-old dying of cancer. The fact that the former doesn't see any of the REAL choices available to him, means that if he kills himself, he commits suicide; he has a "clouded perception of the choices."

In short, the person who commits suicide has choices/options/alternatives (even if he cannot see them); the 80-year-old with a crippling disease, who decides not to eat food or drink water, "takes his own life." I mention the latter case because a good friend of my family did exactly that.

Just a few thought clouds ... as in the comic books ... nothing more.

Back to you.

Tom

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/sh...sisted+suicide...

and then there is this..http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etourist/view/

Tom

Strapping semtex to your body and sitting on a tube train killing others is deemed an honourable act in some parts of the world.......does it make it right. They still call it suicide..[bomber].......

Euthanasia definition:
The practice of killing a human being or animal for humane reasons, especially one suffering greatly or experiencing poor quality of life; An easy death, or the means to bring about such a death
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euthanasia





Suicide has consistently been the most common cause of premature death in schizophrenia. A large 5-year World Health Organization study consisting of the follow-up of 1056 patients exhibiting psychotic symptoms found the most common cause of death in those with schizophrenia was suicide (Sartorius et al, 1986). In their review of the subject Caldwell and Gottesman (1990) found that 9-13% of patients with schizophrenia eventually commit suicide. At least 20-40% make suicide attempts (Meltzer & Fatemi, 1995) and 1-2% go on to complete in their attempt within the next 12 months (Meltzer & Okayli 1995). Therefore, suicide in schizophrenia has long been a major area of concern and research efforts.
In Denmark, Mortensen and Juel (1993) used the national case register to retrospectively examine mortality in a sample of 9156 patients following their first admission with schizophrenia, and reported 50% of males and 35% of females went on to commit suicide during the 17-year study period, with the relative risk of suicide increasing by 56% over this time. This suggests that the current level of risk is not stable, and is certainly not improving. The devastation that suicide brings for relatives, as well as the immense personal suffering the victim endures, must surely make this one of the most pressing issues for psychiatry to address. Carers and professionals are often left with feelings of profound ineffectualness and guilt in the face of suicide, and so it is vital for clinicians to feel confident in their understanding of risk assessment and management in this particularly vulnerable group.
Results from the recent UK National Confidential Inquiry into Suicide and Homicide by People with Mental Illness (Appleby et al, 1999a) revealed that 20% of suicide victims during the period 1996-1998 had a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Fifty per cent of all cases had had contact with psychiatric services within the previous 7 days, yet 85% were thought to be low risk. It is therefore obvious that despite our best efforts, recognition of those most at risk remains extremely difficult. What is unclear is what risk factors specific to this diagnostic group have been reliably reported in well-controlled studies, how best to incorporate these into current assessment procedures, and whether when applied to empirical clinical practice, such procedures can reduce suicide rates. This paper reviews the research findings to data, and discusses possible areas for future investigation.
Vanessa Raymont, Clinical Researcher and Honorary Specialist Registrar

I wonder if the above group have choices................I know some ....if not all have voices ..........


These voices often instruct the individual that their life is meaningless, and that death is the answer ...........often tinged with religious salvation that awaits [so my Brothers, Brother in Law states in his deep manic phases]


Paul whom I supported about 6 years ago.....was articulate and very knowledgeable ..... yet this crippling disease ended his life prematurely at the age of 31.................

.his mother said that..........’death to Paul by hanging was the only cure for the persistent voices calling him to his grave’.


In his rational states of mind Suicide was his backup plan..........for what he called his ‘dark days’
SUICIDE is taking one’s life by any method.......is it still suicide........[said it on his death certificate]

Tom I do not condemn Euthanasia...........AT ALL
I believe in free Will...........

My beef is when people pigeon hole the act of suicide......any death .......
leaves grief in its wake


Schizophrenia is a fire in the mind of the sufferer, therefore is it suicide or what.........if a person is not in control of their mind, how can the death certificate read suicide...implying intentional,

Definition of Suicide
http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=24337

Suicide: The act of causing one’s own death. Suicide may be positive or negative and it may be direct or indirect. Suicide is a positive act when one takes one’s own life.
Suicide is a negative act when one does not do what is necessary to escape death such as leaving a burning building.
Suicide is direct when one has the intention of causing one’s own death, whether as an end to be attained, or as a means to another end, as when a man kills himself to escape condemnation, disgrace, ruin, etc.
Suicide is indirect (and not usually called suicide) when one does not desire it as an end or a means, but when one nevertheless commits an act which courts death, as in tending someone with SARS knowing that they may well succumb to the same illness.
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Tom I do not see those poor souls who leapt to their deaths as committing the act of suicide.....they fled from terror. FULL STOP


Equally I do see the ‘20-something depressed guy’, as committing suicide but because he also fled from his vision of inner terror......

I also see the terminaly ill who choose to terminate their life ..........but only justify this act if you accept ............you want to end inner suffering...........like others who committ the word suicide.............


its just words at the end of the day..........and interpretation of these words.....

and you to Tom have a choice.......... life or death............

David