http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/conte...7/s1914206.htm

Thanks for the link Alffe. Very interesting. I missed the program on the 7th though.

Thanks Alffe

I know of an elderly man out here who ended his life a couple of months ago after suffering a stroke several years ago. He overheard his wife and son talking about placing him in a nursing home. He was a large man, and it was difficult to move him around.

I think our society is screwed up. We consider the elderly a burden and obviously prefer death over old age. Instead, we should cherish our elderly citizens. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't be here. Some possess wisdom we need to hear, others deserve respect and honor just for making it that far in life. It's nature's way of slowing them down so we can gather around and listen to their stories.

Our obsession with youth has gotten out of hand. Gray hair, wrinkles, and age spots are nature's Purple Heart medals. They should be worn with pride.

I suspect the three people mentioned in your link might change their minds down the road. Illness, frailty, and dependence doesn't always mean the end of a rich life. It sounds selfish to measure the value of life based on swimming, dancing, and golf. It sounds cowardly to prefer suicide over the next chapter in life.

Yes, KathyM, they might well change their minds but it's about having the choice to do so. I, personally, would not call their choice a selfish one because I don't like to be judged or to judge.

I loved what you said about "purple hearts"...age spots... but each of us gets to define our lives and the quality of them....it's a "walk in my shoes" kind of thing, as you well know.

Thanks for this, Alffe. It does make you think.

You know I'm against any suicide because of my history and my brother's history.

I'm troubled that anyone thinks that someone who is bed-ridden and cannot move becomes a 'vegetable'.

I don't believe it. I've seen how hard some people fight to live. Like Stepehn Hawking, for instance.

I think *LIFE* is the whole package -- including the struggle at the end.

My Mom made me swear "no nursing home" and "no leg amputation" and "no colostomy" from the time I was 12 years old. I kept most of the promise. But, it was hard. I did consent to the colostomy which ended up being screwed up horrendously. She was a real mess at the end. Makes me wonder if she could predict the future

I don't really think you can plan or predict what will be in the future.

What troubles me the most is the worry that "society" will eventually take on this belief-system "that to be old and disabled is to be useless".

Thanks. Hugs for the room.

Barb

note that it's 4 Corners programme from Australia, not the same as 4 Corners you would have in US.


p.s. moose wrote: "What troubles me the most is the worry that "society" will eventually take on this belief-system "that to be old and disabled is to be useless"

Seems to me that's already happening. I also think that it's very frightening to be old, alone, and disabled. (leaving out the useless bit)

If you read the discussions on the right hand side of the 4 corners page you will see that many of these people do not feel that what they intend to do, is suicide. Many of them feel that it is a choice they should be "entitled" to...my word, not theirs.

More discussion anyone? I can't say that I am "for" suicide..I guess I am against it. It's the very word itself that I am against. If we use pro choice, right away one assumes the subject is abortion. We need a new word for what some people are advocating...death with dignity? That reminds me of Dr.K. for some reason...nothing dignified about what he did to/for people but I suspect his heart was in the right place. How about the right...the right to decide when enough is enough?

And always I have to clarify that I am talking about old, terminally ill people.
Unlike my heathy 31 year old son who impulsively killed himself.

You know what I have a problem with, Alffe??

Anyone who's taken care of sick, elderly people knows that "assisting" them when they've "had enough" has always been an option.

A caring doctor or a caring nurse who's really involved in taking care of their patients, knows them by name, knows the family, even makes home visits -- those kinds of caring people have always been willing to give just a tiny bit more morphine so that it 'helps the patient along on their journey'. The medical community even has a term for it.

What happens, in my viewpoint anyway, when you get lawyers and laws and organizations and governments involved in the whole process is that you lose the 'caring' part of it. It becomes not "a death with dignity" but a "death by process".

I spent a year as a home healh aide after my Mom passed. I wanted to "pay back" in some way the precious gifts that had been given to me. I was the only full-time aide in the two towns that I covered. I had 25 patients that I rotated through over a two-week period. Some I saw daily; some I saw every two weeks. All of my patients were elderly except for one young woman (about 21) with a neuromuscular disease. All the rest of them had cancer or heart problems or altzheimer's. Most of them were 'terminal'.

I spent months and months with most of these people. I grew close to their families and to them. Most of them -- when they'd had "enough" were able to give up and let go and leave.

I saw it in my own Mother. She hung on and hung on. They couldn't understand why she was lasting so long. It was because I wasn't ready to let her go. When I finally became "ready", she passed.

A lot of people that intellectualize the whole dying process and think that they want "death with dignity" don't really understand that most people that really are dying will do anything to hang on as long as possible. When they truly cannot "take anymore", they'll let go.

Someone who is a healthy, elderly individual who talks about "when my time comes" and "when I become a vegetable" and "I want 'death with dignity'" -- I believe -- doesn't really understand that the DIGNITY comes with accepting ALL of what life has to offer -- that includes the entire dying process

I still believe it's "suicide" if you end your life before The Universe intends it to end just because you don't want someone bathing your body or changing adult diapers or cleaning up your bowel movements. Speaking for myself only, I felt that taking care of my Mom and taking care of *MY* patients and doing all of that "yucky stuff" that people normally don't want to do is a gift -- it's a blessing to be able to care for someone's body and bodily processes while they're going through their final steps. I never did consider it a burden. I always felt that the people that I was caring for were dying WITH DIGNITY.

Barb

Well, doing that is illegal here (same place where that article that Alffe posted originates from. I'm sure it happens, but it's illegal. If something is already illegal then lawyers and laws and organizations and governments are already involved.

I'm an old nurse myself. I totally understand your concerns, Moose, however, I think I've grown to a place where I can step back and reverse the situation and say ok, this is what I would do for someone else that I know or love who is dying and it's the same as I would give to someone in a hospital setting that I didn't know personally. I would do absolutely everything in my heart and natural abilities to care for them... To care for their bodies and care for their spirit and be with them even if they didn't know I was there.

but...

is it the same as I would want for myself? No, it's not. It's totally different. I see it more about dying comfortably than dying with dignity. Dignity is something that others might feel who are caring for the person. Comfort is what the dying person should feel. If in 5 or 10 or 20 years time and I've lost my mind and lying in some horrid little space I do not want my children or anyone else for that matter to think that prolonging my life in any way serves any part of dignity on my behalf. It won't.

It might make other people feel they gave me some dignity in my dying process and it might make others feel better because they're helping me just as I have helped others die in the past. I do not want people to have a feeling that this is something that has to be done... that this is simply the circle of life. My body and my spirit are mine and mine alone no matter how selfish that might sound to other people. It's not about selfishness and it's also not about dignity to me. There's absolutely nothing dignified about my disease and pain and suffering and dying. No-one can give me any sort of dignity. That's something that I believe I found in life, not in dying.

Life to me is what holds dignity and grace and all those other qualities. I've already made up my mind about how I feel about the people in the article. I see it as not not what others can do for them or how others feel they should die or prolong their lives, it's about what they want, what they decide. It's just that some people wish to think about these things long before they happen so that they have some personal input into the matter rather than the matter being in the hands of other people who might not ever know their real wishes. I totally understand that.

I guess that's why having living wills are so important. It all reminds me of the transplant situations here where I live. You can make it shown on your driver's permit that you wish to be a transplant donor in the event of your untimely death, however if the family doesn't know about this or the family of the deceased decides *they* do not wish for your organs to be donated, then that's the end of that. No donations, even though the deceased person wished for this to happen. People need to talk about these issues openly without fear and without shame. If we don't talk about some of these really touchy subjects (and suicide comes to mind!) then we will never move forward and we will always stagnate.

just my thoughts anyway... for what they're worth. I would imagine if I was a religious person I might have other issues to come to terms with, however, I am not, so my feelings and thoughts written here are purely mine based on my life's experiences and lessons learned. hope that makes sense.