[Alffe]

We are social animals; we need the company of our fellow humans. We need approval of our peers - family, friends, neighbors, colleagues, and so on. Most of us do not "air our dirty laundry" in public. We would rather not reveal problelms to outsiders, particularly problems that appear to reflect badly on us.

Suicide does not occur without there being problems. Happy, well-adjusted people do not kill themselves. (It is a complicated philosophical and ethical question whether there is such a thing as "rational" suicide in cases such as terminal illness. Even if there are "rational" suicides, however, they are a very small percentage of the total.)

In almost all cases, then, people who commit suicide are desperately unhappy. Most of the problems about which they are so unhappy - alcoholism, rejection in a relationship, the failure of a business - are issues that people generally try not to reveal to strangers. Sexual problems, overwhelming financial disasters, or other self-esteem - related matters are issues most families agree not to discuss with others.

The most pervasive contributing factor to suicide is profound depression. One part of such deep depressions is a sense of total despair, including the despair that no one else could ever understand what the depressed person is suffering. This leads to emotional isolation and a sense of futility about trying to communicate with anyone. It leaves one feeling different. It is true for the members of the family as well as for suicidal individuals.

Suicide reveals to the community that serious problems existed in the family that the family was unable to solve. Or so it seems to the survivors, who often feel that if they had been better able to deal with the problems, the suicide would not have occured. Many families prefer not to reveal that death was caused by suicide in order to protect their own images. When such a fact is kept secret, feelings of shame fester. This perpetuates the denial that led to isolation in the first place. Secrecy precludes sharing, which can lead to the healing that comes with compassionate understanding.


Healing After The Suicide of A Loved One

by Ann Smolin, C.S.W., and John Guinan, PH.D

[Lara]

hmmmnnnn. *thinkingcapon

That would suggest though that an extraordinarily high percentage of the population would be "at risk" and I don't think that's correct. Do you?

p.s. my comment excludes the last paragraph parts about sharing and secrecy issues, which I can totally understand.

[Alffe]

*grin. I should have explained that this was from the Chapter about Shame and Ostracism and trying to "make sense" of suicide. And that some people are so shocked (and unconsciously, frightened) by a suicide that they have no idea what to say to the survivors.

And yes, I do think that we'll see an extrodinaryily high percentage of suicides in the coming years...our prevention council is in "high gear" trying to education our young people in the schools....and our older population is growing at a higher rate than ever before...people live longer, people have no health insurance, and older people feel "expendable".

And then there's the economy....but that's a whole different story. *grin

[Lara]

Dear Alffe,
Yes, of course I understood it was about trying to "make sense of suicide".

I did read and understand their point. I was really hoping for more input about the topic from others actually. I sometimes think we tend to feel more than we think or do. I include myself although sometimes I think too much!!!

I think it's a very important point that the author was making.

I doubt if I had a hundred more years that I'll ever be able to make sense of it all. Coming from both a personal level and also from a more scientific perspective, I think that there is more to IT than what is currently being studied.

I wonder about genetics.

I wonder about predisposition to conditions that may affect the way we think, but mostly I've come to think about impulse.

I also was reading on the PsychCentral site today about how if a person has attempted suicide at some time in their life then they're at so much greater risk of it happening again.

I *see*/read people talking and able to share thoughts here and I see what good that must be really and truly. For the life of me though, I don't think it's all about secrets and family problems or conditions like depression wholly.

just my thoughts for what they're worth.

Let's talk about IT

[Alffe]

Maybe I need to go back and do some bumping up. We talked quite a bit about "it" in your absense and many people opened up.

I am so happy you've come back to us...missed your wise council.

I am excited about being involved in a new local support group here. I did turn down in invitation to join our Prevention Coalition as I'm too old to get into that, although I firmly believe in the importance of educating our young people about it....my passion is support..and we are losing the only support group we have here. The moderater is retiring after 14 yrs. and the survey that was sent out to suvivors showed there is much interest in starting a new one.

Now I'm waiting....and patience is not my strong suit. *grin

[Lara]

Thankyou but I'm not so wise. I just wonder and worry about so many things and I think a lot is left out of the scientific articles and psych reports I read.

Too old to get into a Prevention Coalition? How can one be too old? I wish you all the best for being involved in the new group. You would be perfect for that as sad as it is to say that in many ways. <sigh>

I often think of Pter when we speak like this... open and frank. I crave it. I miss him and I have missed you all.

I'll catch up. I'm doing it slowly but surely. I just can't stay online too long 'cause of my internet problems.

You might not think patience is your strong suit, but I think it is.

P.S. There is not need to bump up all the posts. I understand.

[mistiis]

Talking about 'it' I wrote out a post yesterday just to have it disappear, and decided maybe it just wasn't meant to be.
Then I wake up this morning to all of this. So, I guess I will try again. Suicidal thoughts are difficult animals to understand. I think there are many reasons they may be there. And, Lara, I can tell you from my own experience that once you have actually tried suicide seriously, it does become, I think, like a habit.

I won't go into my first suicide attempt because it is elsewhere. But I was very young, and very serious about it.

I have tried two other times, under very different circumstances. Which is kind of interesting, because the third try I was very mentally ill due to a thyroid crisis. But, I am not sure everyone who reaches that point would still decide that suicide was the answer. But, then, most do not survive that kind of crisis.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that suicide can seen like the only option when all doors slam, and the person is in a bad mental, emotional state. And there can be many reasons for this.

My last almost attempt was not very long ago. I had tried to post about it yesterday, but lost it.

So here, I try again. I had reached a point due to the circumstances in my life that I felt I had no alternative. I had tried everything. And all I did was beat my head against a wall. Something happened to me in what should have been a very safe place. And it triggered a suicidal response in me. I tried to tell my best friend, at the time, that I was suicidal, and I was told that I was flirting with the devil. And this person is a certified hight school counselor. go figure that.....
Anyway, she couldn't help me. And then I got into it with my significant other. I knew I needed to make some major changes in my life, and I couldn't seem to get that through no matter how hard I tried. I just reached a point of realizing that I just couldn't take anymore. I couldn't change anything. No matter how hard I was trying. I was tired. Done.....I walked to the bathroom, with nothing in mind, other than I couldn't bear anymore. I locked the door, undressed, and climbed into the shower. I huddled on the floor of the tub with the shower beating on my back. Great wracking sobs shook me over and over. And the thoughts came so easily on how I could just end it all right there and how easy it would be. I wanted to do it. My head was filled with how to do it. I cried, and I prayed. And cried, and prayed some more. After, I don't know how much time. I finally stood up and finished my shower which took a great amount of effort. And I started just putting one foot in front of the other. Each step took a tremendous amount of effort. I didn't have some great vision, or great ideas on how to change my situation. Just enough strength to keep putting that one foot in front of the other. I think prayer got me through that. Otherwise, I would have carried through with the plan my mind was presenting to me.

I know this is long. I am sorry. I am just trying to get it out before I lose it again. Now, quite some few months down the road I have made those changes, and have experienced joy like I have never known. I still have sorrow, and I still fight those thoughts, but it is easier somehow. And things are still working in my life, that make it well worth living.

Ok, I hope this will bring hope to someone who is struggling. And having to make that great effort of putting just one foot in front of the other without knowing how things will come out in the end.

[Alffe]

Genetics is an interesting topic...some yrs ago one of our daughters was ask to participate in a study at Indiana Univ. about the relationship between bipolar and alcoholism...she opted out of it, I don't remember why.

I am waiting the arrival of a book I ordered from Amazon...Blue Genes by Christopher Lucas. I heard him interviewed on NPR a couple of weeks ago..this is his second book about suicide...his mother died by her own hands and this was hidden from his family. While writing this new book, his brother, a famous writer..also commited suicide and Lucas said, on air..that he'd never forgive him.


Mistiis I thank you for sharing that and especially for getting up and finishing the shower. You are here for a reason and I thank God for you.

I will never kill myself...I will never put my family through that kind of pain...we've been there and done that with our Michael.

I admit that I wish my life were over...but it will never be of my own doing.

Hugs for the room.

[mistiis]

I have been thinking a lot about this. To think about it scientifically, why can one person go through really difficult situations and never consider suicide as an option, and another see it as the only way out? I do wonder sometimes if it has to with the chemicals in our brains and how we are wired.

I just think that it is bigger than what so called science could understand at this point. There are personal beliefs, I think, that can made suicide seem like the best option. Emotional pain clouds thinking. The AD's help some people who are treated with them. Counseling with that for others. All of this seems to help. Education to get people to reach out and seek treatment is imperative. But, there will be those who simply cannot face what the future looks like to them at a given moment. And I don't think that is chemical. There are too many roads that lead to suicide.

I was reading about something called MBCT (Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy) which is something that is being used as relapse prevention and for those who are treatment resistant.

I believe that Pter must have learned some of these techniques on his own? And I find myself learning the same thing. I can't take AD's so I have to find other ways to deal with it. I don't know what that says about my brain chemistry at this point. But, there is a way to deal with it.

Education, I think, on developing these techniques, and then getting them out to the public. I think there is a movement in that direction.
Just thinking out loud here, and thought I would offer this.

Thank you dear Alffe, I am glad now too, that I kept on.

[barbo]

Originally Posted by mistiis

I have been thinking a lot about this. To think about it scientifically, why can one person go through really difficult situations and never consider suicide as an option, and another see it as the only way out? I do wonder sometimes if it has to with the chemicals in our brains and how we are wired.

I just think that it is bigger than what so called science could understand at this point. There are personal beliefs, I think, that can made suicide seem like the best option. Emotional pain clouds thinking. The AD's help some people who are treated with them. Counseling with that for others. All of this seems to help. Education to get people to reach out and seek treatment is imperative. But, there will be those who simply cannot face what the future looks like to them at a given moment. And I don't think that is chemical. There are too many roads that lead to suicide.

I was reading about something called MBCT (Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy) which is something that is being used as relapse prevention and for those who are treatment resistant.

I believe that Pter must have learned some of these techniques on his own? And I find myself learning the same thing. I can't take AD's so I have to find other ways to deal with it. I don't know what that says about my brain chemistry at this point. But, there is a way to deal with it.

Education, I think, on developing these techniques, and then getting them out to the public. I think there is a movement in that direction.
Just thinking out loud here, and thought I would offer this.

Thank you dear Alffe, I am glad now too, that I kept on.

I, too, am glad you took that shower! You are very brave.