nik,

I am not offended at all...

But I also wonder about the Kamikazes and the suicide bombers. They did those voluntarily...(I have thoughts on them for I have been studying those for awhile now but tis not a good night to get into it)

I think what David and I are trying to get to is the different spectrums of suicide thoughts and what propels them.

A person who is terminally ill vs someone who is healthy physically but ill mentally.

It's good to ask questions and get it out.

(((BIG HUGS))) dear friend. It's a rough day/night for you and I hope you keep on venting....

Thank you for understanding me ((Moi)) I guess my mind is stuck in today, and Dad's suicide. Cuts a bit too close for me to ponder on right now I am thinking. But yes I agree, questions are always good!!! How else can answers ever be found? Much love my friend

nik,

it's OK...

I think it's always good to question like we're doing and it's good to question like you're doing...

but we all are wondering about ONE question:

"WHY"

why for those of us that want to do it and why for those of us that are survivors

and the WHY's of culture and mental states and how it all works....

I wonder why some people would want to take out other people when they commit suicide. Like those shooters that kills many others before they kill themselves...

I have heard some people argue that that is NOT suicide but self-murder and I have to bite my tongue a bit because it is such a touchy subject because I so much feel for the victims but I wonder at why it drove those shooters to that state of mind...

it's a tough one...

if one argues that suicide is taking ONE's LIFE, then, why do they take OTHERS??

So, there are just so many spectrums and questions and I think Doody's post has really made me think it out loud vs thinking it to myself...

according too medical dictionaries

[B][I]Definition of Suicide
Suicide: The act of causing ones own death. Suicide may be positive or negative and it may be direct or indirect. Suicide is a positive act when one takes ones own life.

Suicide is a negative act when one does not do what is necessary to escape death such as leaving a burning building.

Suicide is direct when one has the intention of causing ones own death, whether as an end to be attained, or as a means to another end, as when a man kills himself to escape condemnation, disgrace, ruin, slow death etc.

Suicide is indirect (and not usually called suicide) when one does not desire it as an end or a means, but when one nevertheless commits an act which courts death, as in tending someone with SARS knowing that they may well succumb to the same illness.


Nik-key the analogy of the 'Falling man' was an example of the tradgerdy of taking ones life wether purposefuly or accidently and not meaningfully.

That poor mans death certificate has 'death by suicide' on it Fact.... NOT DEATH BY ESCAPING MURDER BY FIRE [instigated by terrorists committed to taking their OWN lives and potentialy thousands of others in an act of suicide and murder. ]

OUR AIMS are similar Nik-key, we both want to prevent any form of Suicide...because of the mess and devestation it leaves behind............but both from a different perspective...........

i survived my own dilema.............if i can prevent further dilemas......or deter others through my experience.........then i will ............

you have surived your Fathers Suicide.................you have a message as well ................and your message will deter many.......i promise you...


but we both have a place...................[.if not then suicide will always be out there, because people will not accept the other side of the coin]

Im sorry i tried nearly 17 years ago i'm sorry i tried at 13 years old..........i'm sorry that without medication i feel suicdal ...........[and that seems selfish too many]


BUT when a cure arrives to take these thoughts of death by ones hand away..is here...........i give you my word i will be first in the queue.


David

ps.....for all those budding theologans out there [ baring in mind i was once contemplating the preisthood]so its not a slur on religion but yet another thing to contemplate over...............

Did Jesus committ suicide or did he knowingly walk into the hands of murder'ers [even telling others before hand that a cruel death was his fate]


Did he not say he was preparing to shed his blood to free others............

nik,

cover your eyes for this post or skip it...Just a warning...

.
.
.

I am trying to put myself in that person who just jumped off one of the Twin Towers and I am wondering at that precise moment for that person to reach that decision...

I am trying to put myself in a position where I am terminally ill...I may one day have cancer again, who knows...but for now, I am good...but it does scare me...

so, it is easier for me to put myself in that position if the doctor tells me I am going to die in a few months, and I am in grave pain to the point that I cannot move....

I now am thinking, in those moments...what would my decision be...

If I was trapped on that tower and it was hot and I knew that there was NOT another way out, I would jump. Because it would be on my term...

if I was given a death sentence, I would choose to end my own life. ON my term...

the difference between those and choosing to end life in other ways is that the situations become different...

I think about when I first tried and the last time I tried it. And as I am reflecting, my reasoning has changed.

The first time, when I was 14, it was because I thought that was it for me. That at age 14, that WAS going to be my life the rest of my life. I couldn't walk, I was isolated, and I was in bed all the time...life seemed pretty dark...

the last time I tried it, I was alone also, but for a different reason...part of it was also I was in love with someone that I just didn't have a chance with...and my heart was broken...

and all the times that I THINK about it between the times and after the times that I tried. Those times are a little bit different...

sometimes, it could be simply something as a trigger that can send me flying...but I can CONTROL those urges...

I am NOT sure, til this day WHY I did try those few times...I have to tell you, it took every ounce of my being to try those times. It was NOT easy...

I even tried to talk myself out of it....getting to that point was like rolling a dice and saying F* it....

I look at my average temper and there are times when I get really angry and all I see IS red and I would say F* it even though the decision would be horrible consequences which I actually DO know what the outcome would be...

I'd still say, F* it....

as I've gotten older, those F* it moments are far and inbetween now...

anyways, just thinking out loud....I have been insomnic again...hate these cycles...

David, that's a good question you've raised about Jesus...I think Ghandi knew he was going to die also...

the thought of martyrdom is something else that is interesting in this suicide spectrum....

*******Edited Per Members Request******

BJ, it's good to see you coming into the light....

((((HUGS))))

judging?? They would have to go through moi first...(and I am sure David, and nik, and Alpho, and...well, the list goes on and on...)

((((BJ)))) am not sure why you edited your post. I read it yesterday and was very touched by it. You speak right to my heart. And you hit on places and thoughts which I myself go through. I couldn't respond last night because my reaction to it was a powerful one. But, it was a good one. Someone out there understands ME, and how I think and feel. And I need that. I understand though, and I don't blame you in the least. There are many times when I feel that I would want to do the same. What we express here is very personal. I love you dear BJ. And, yes, I am still here and I am still fighting the beast. I will fight him for the rest of my life.

I can't take the meds they dish out for depression and suicidal thoughts. So, I have to find other ways to fight it. I do it by reaching out to friends and to God. I do it by learning how to monitor my thoughts and emotions. But, there are times when there is too much going on in my life and the stress of it takes me to the breaking point. At that breaking point I have a choice. I can reach out to someone, or I can act on the thoughts. Fortunately, I have friends that I can reach out to. I have someone who knows me and watches out for me. It makes all the difference.

Its very hard to walk up to a family member and say, "I want to kill myself." You will not get a very good reaction. Besides which, it looks weak. Because you are not strong enough to do it yourself. I don't like the position that I am in. But, it is what it is. And I do the best that I can.
It would not do me any good to go to a doc or to an ER, because, as I said, I can't take the meds anyway. Been there, tried that. And that is not good when you have Chronic Major Depressive Disorder along with a lot of other stufff.
Hang on BJ, I am We will get through it.
I keep hoping I will find that other sidewalk. And hope is a good thing.

Such an interesting thread.

and so much to be learned from all perspectives.
One who stepped into
the
Light