[SallyC]

It looks like The Prez is going to force GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy if they don't come up wih a viable reconstuction plan, before the deadline.

I'm torn in thinking that they deserve to file bankruptcy.....and yet, what does that do to Jobs and such?

The big guys and perhaps the Unions, deserve to go down in flames but the workers don't..

[Kitty]

It's definitely a bad situation, Sally. My DH was a Union worker for many years for GM. I'm not sure what he'd say about all this.

[KarenMarie]

I have to say that I think it would be the unions that are bankrupting the car companies -if they had been forced into a Chapter 11 rather then get our tax dollars as a bailout they could have restructured their contracts with the unions etc and could have been much more viable - they deserve to go down if they haven't been properly run - on the other hand - what company would want to accept our "stimulus" packages after what has happened to AIG and now the auto companies - if the executives at AIG were forced to give back their bonus - then the unions should equally be forced to accept the government terms - but then again - it's the current adminstration's idea that unions are wonderful and every company should be unionized - and so -

[Aarcyn]

Breaking the Unions. Seems to be picking on an organization that has made a lot of concessions over the years yet the CEO's are getting away with large salaries.

I do not think the typical union worker had a say in project development.

GM had the opportunity to make an ALL Electric car. In fact several prototypes were on the road. I saw them. I saw Ed Begley Jr. on the Johnny Carson show oh-so-long-ago and Carson was asking him about his car. Begley LOVED it.

GM sold the patent to one of the OIL companies. They have the battery under lock and key. GM? I would love to get a hold of that CEO.

I have nothing but compassion and fear for what an economic collapse this will create. It is not just the auto maker, it is the parts supplier, the local diner, the supermarket, the local Target. Massive unemployment.

A domino effect.

I do not blame the Union. In fact, the Union is set up to protect. To make sure the workers have a leverage in a company. I do not see the upper management as particularly compassionate, just getting paid REALLY well.

I have a lot of sympathy for Obama. He will catch the brunt of the ire for the collapse.

[Dejibo]

The thing is ...I DONT want an electric car! I want my big ol gas guzzling SUV. I live in snowland. I live in a land where you NEED 4wheel drive to get to buy groceries in the winter, and need 4 wheel drive to get out to the main road in the summer. Not all of us want a tiny lil car that wont hold our children, our gear, or get us out in the bad weather.

[Curious]

Awww..you don't want a Cadilac Escalade Hybrid?

Sure are pretty http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/...brid&year=2009

Just teasing.

I think they can and do have the technology for better gas milage. Hybrids do use gas, just not as much. The power is there.

What they need to do is make them affordable!!!!

<-----Monkey climbs off soap box and back into her ugly Nissan Versa that she HATES.

[Erin524]

Originally Posted by Dejibo

The thing is ...I DONT want an electric car! I want my big ol gas guzzling SUV. I like in snowland. I live in a land where you NEED 4wheel drive to get to buy groceries in the winter, and need 4 wheel drive to get out to the main road in the summer. Not all of us want a tiny lil car that wont hold our children, our gear, or get us out in the bad weather.

I second that.

I love my little SUV. I have 1999 Toyota RAV4-L, my dad has a 2000 RAV4. The RAV (especially the models my dad and I drive) are considered a mini-SUV.

My RAV is just the right size that I was able to get both my parents, a wheelchair for my mom, AND her rollator into the car, along with a 110 pound dog. (dont have the dog anymore)

It's the perfect car, and while it's not doing so great on gas mileage right now (it needs to be worked on some) it's been a great car. We get enough snow here in Omaha that I've needed this car.

My dad has had to have his RAV4 rebuilt. He was hit from behind a few years ago by a Dodge Durango (a much larger SUV than the RAV). If he had been driving the Toyota Corolla that we'd gotten rid of a few years before, I think he would have been seriously injured. (the Durango was speeding and was trying to run the light and thought my dad was going to go thru the yellow instead of stopping)

I've had the smaller car (a 1996 Toyota Tercel) My Tercel couldnt go faster than 35mph if the wind was blowing harder than 20mph. It would blow off the road. The car I had before that was a 1985 Honda CRX, a rolling death trap. I got rid of that car not long after seeing another CRX owner get killed in an accident. (saw the accident, the guy who was driving that CRX had the steering column go thru his chest)

I do not want to drive a teensy little car that's not much bigger than a coffin. I want to be able to allow my parents to ride in the car comfortably (and we're not little people) and I want to be able to carry any of the accessories that my mom might need to get around. If I get another dog, I want to be able to get the dog into the car (granted, I'm not getting another big boy like what I had before...next dog is going to be much smaller)

There is a guy here in Nebraska that has been converting gasoline powered cars into electric cars. Apparently his favorite model to convert is the same body style as my RAV4....too bad he only does automatics and that it's $7500 to do the conversion. (he could do my dad's...his is automatic) Too bad we cant afford that.

[Supra_kid]

I heard that the CEO of GM was asked to step down. Dodge is pushing/urging for a merger with Fiat (italy).

while all the japanese automakers are having a hay day. this should be a wake up call to americans, there quality is unserpassed by anything in the u.s. they are building more reliable, more economical, more practical vehicles than any one of the big three.

Toyota/Lexus and honda have amazing reliablility and resale value for alot cheaper. even back in the early 90's with the lexus SC-series/LS-series the 1UZ-FE and 2JZ's (built by yamaha) were over engineered, yet simple in design, same with the 80's 22RE's sure they lacked power but there is a video on youtube of a guy who threw a rod with holesin the block and oil pouring out of the oil pan and its still running a driving! (after he patched that hole in the oil pan of course.)

and of couse honda started the 4cyl relaibility thing with the D16 and B series engines back in the 80's...

they just need to get there head on straight and pay attention to what the people want! and keep the engine design relativily simple and for god sakes negotiate with the unions!

i am a firm believer in darwinism in the automotive field as a mechanic/enthusiast. however at the same time i know it is easy for me to say that knowing i dont know anyone personally who lost there job with GM ford or chrysler.

[TXBatman]

If the head of GM has to step down, then I think it is only fair that the head of the UAW steps down as well. Yes, GM made some bad mistakes in choosing which kinds of cars to make, but the fact of the matter is that those decisions were driven mostly by the fact that they could not turn a profit making small cheap cars. They have so much overhead cost from the legacy pension and medical benefits for people who no longer work there, that they could only turn a profit making large expensive cars and SUVs. Sure, they could have made all electric cars a decade ago...and they would have gone bankrupt a decade ago too...because they can't turn a profit making those cars.

The CEO of GM was not the guy who demanded that the union workers get paid more and more and that their pensions should be larger and include better and better health insurance. The UAW is who demanded gold plated benefits packages and inflated pensions. The UAW demanded that they get paid way more than their non-union counterparts working in other automakers' plants. Sure, GM should not have agreed to it, but the way collective bargaining works these days, in a situation like GMs, the union has all the power.

Let me give you an example...lets say you work in a welding shop for a small company. The shop you work in is their only shop, and you and the other 25 employees decide to unionize. So that shop has to negotiate with you and your union (lets say you are teamsters local #1000). If you decide to strike, the Teamsters are not going to want to spend a ton of money supporting you and the other 25 workers in your local, because you contribute very little to the union in dues and are a very small shop. So you and the company are pretty much both on equal footing...the union isn't going to pay you to strike forever...and the company can't afford to keep their only shop idled forever.

The UAW and GM had a very different relationship. GM has hundreds of plants and small parts shops spread out all over the country (and Canada and Mexico). Most of those shops and plants make a specific part or set of parts for one or more car models. However, some of those shops make key components that are used in almost every single vehicle made by GM and they are the only plant that makes those parts. What the UAW would do to companies like GM and Ford when the automakers wouldn't agree to their exorbitant demands is call a strike at one of those key plants only. So that would put a few hundred workers on strike. The UAW was collecting dues from 30,000+ GM workers and using that money to pay the strike funds of a few hundred...which they could afford to do indefinitely. GM on the other hand, was shut down entirely. The plant wasn't producing a critical part, so GM couldn't make any cars that needed that part. Since it was a "supply problem" that caused the plant downtime, GM was forced to pay the workers at the other plants who were not able to build cars, even though it was the UAW's fault that they were shut down. So UAW was paying the salaries of a few hundred, while GM paid the salaries of 20,000+ workers while not getting any production.

The end result was to put the UAW in a tremendously powerful bargaining position during the good times, when GM had to keep production going or risk not having cars to deliver to dealers, and during the lean times, the UAW simply refused to renegotiate, and GM compensated by lowering material quality, reducing R&D expenditures, and other measures that contributed to a long-term decline in the quality of their vehicles. Sure, GM should have put their foot down sooner, but any one of those strikes could have led to bankruptcy if allowed to go on long enough. The UAW knew that and simply stood their ground and waited for GM to cave...which they always eventually did.

Now that GM is going to go bankrupt because of the crushing weight of the UAW contract obligations and the car making decisions that were forced by those obligations, the GM CEO gets fired and the UAW head gets to keep his job? Excuse my language, but WTF? The union has offered a few concessions, but for the most part, they have said they are unwilling to negotiate a new deal until their contract expires in 2011. They are banking on their bought and paid for buddies in DC to force GM and its creditors to make all the sacrifices while they get to keep their sweet deals with gold plated benefits. So far it looks like the UAW strategy is working...

Keep in mind, I am not attacking the average union worker. They are caught up in this just as much as the average white collar engineer at GM is. They didn't choose how to negotiate the deals in the 80s and 90s...they didn't draw up the demands delivered to GM management during strike negotiations. The UAW management is power hungry and out of control. They have ceased to be an effective agent supporting the workers and instead have become the agent of death to the company by their refusal to work with GM's management to overcome the challenges the company faces.

When companies like United went bankrupt, the pilots unions and mechanics unions gave up big concessions...but the company survived. Most of them still have jobs and the company is working its way back to health. If the UAW stays this course, it is VERY likely that GM will be forced into bankruptcy and that thousands upon thousands of GM workers will lose their jobs and the rest will face steep cuts in wages and benefits. That path is no longer in the hands of management...it is in the hands of the UAW. As the UAW is who got the company to this point...I fail to see why the UAW management shouldn't suffer the consequences of their own actions.

Where is Barney Frank on union executive compensation? Why not forbid unions from taking dues out of paychecks paid with government bailout funds? Why beat up on the wall street execs who in many cases had nothing to do with the economic crash, while using kid gloves on the union execs at the UAW who bear the bulk of the responsibility for where the big 3 are today?

[Dejibo]

I do buy american. I am a Ford girl. always have been. From my first car a Ford Maverick to my current a Ford Expedition. (yeah! a big boy!) I have owned ford after ford. I do have a beater car in the yard for local stuff when the weather is supreme, its an acura with 170k miles on it, and runs like a charm. its scratched, and a lil dented, but it busts up and over the hills, and I am not afraid of someone bumping into it with a shopping cart. It was a free car, so I wasnt going to complain that it wasnt a ford.

I agree, the UAW head should have been asked to step down as well. I think they should have been forced into bankruptcy instead of taking tax payer dollars, they are going to end up there anyway, and be forced to renegotiate their contracts at a better more reasonable market price. Since when is it worth $70 an hour for someone to put a bumper on a car? That doesnt include the price of their benefit, and retirement package. We dont pay our MD that much.

Enough with the bail outs. If we allow the market to do what the market will do, and business to do what business do, without continually handing them money, it can and will balance out with the supply and demand.

I for one want to go back to the Gold standard, and get off this paper money trail.