Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Thoracic Outlet Syndrome/Brachial Plexopathy. In Memory Of DeAnne Marie.


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Old 07-01-2012, 07:29 PM #1
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Originally Posted by parbie View Post
Dr. Angle called me directly from his cell after I left a message with his office and faxed over my paperwork. I explained my symptoms, history and asked my questions and spoke with him for at least a half hour. He also told me to call back anytime if I had any more questions. Very few doctors do this, and I liked that alone because it means he is easily reachable and available for post-surgery recovery (which will evidently be lengthy). This factor is also important to me since I am going to be doing surgery out of state. So here are all the answers to the questions I asked him:
-10-11 years experience, has done 75 to 100 TOS surgeries to date
-could not tell me his success rate for nTOS because he says he is very selective with those cases and was unsure, but he said he has no recurrent cases
-Trained at UCLA
-Transaxillary approach (his preference for this is because you get 2 incisions the supraclavicular approach, he said if you have the experience, the approach is not more difficult)
-would completely remove the cervical and first ribs, and a partial scalenectomy with the anterior and median scalenes, and neurolysis of the brachial plexus (which he said less than 5% of patients need)
-said nTOS patients do not get complete relief as often because there is usually a lot of trauma involved and other diagnoses like fibromyalgia
-said I have classic identifiable symptoms, 90% of the diagnosis is made by the clinical exam, but would have me do an MRI venogram (one last test)
-3 to 6 months before operating on the other side
-has not seen anyone with Pec minor syndrome and feels the diagnosis is “questionable”
-surgery would be 2 hours, would be hospitalized for 1 to 2 nights, off work for at least 4 weeks, physical therapy begins 4 to 6 weeks after
Overall, I really liked Dr. Angle. He was very easy to talk to, kind and understanding, and definitely very experienced and knowledgeable.
Reachability was a huge factor in my surgeon selection. After finding Dr. Angle, I did not find it necessary to travel for surgery.

My surgeries with Dr. Angle were closer to 3 hours as they required neurolysis. However, I am a pretty sturdy guy and my recovery has been pretty fast. I only had 5 weeks between surgeries and only spent 24 hours in the hospital post-op each time.

In your position, I would definitely give the Denver guys a close look (I had planned to see Brantigan before choosing Angle). Urschel appears to be promising as well.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:51 PM #2
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Great research.

I would add that while Dr. Gelabert is very caring and thorough, he is very busy with his teaching and relies on an assistant. He wanted me to have a repeat scalene block and SSEP test and said his assistant would handle scheduling (he gave me a copy of the referral he typed up for her). When I hadn't heard back after 2 weeks I called her and she stated she was waiting on dictation from him(?). I ended up faxing my copy of the order directly to the neurologist so they could inquire with his office as to the holdup. It was another 2 weeks before someone called me to schedule an appointment for testing. I can't imagine trying to deal with Gelabert's office long distance like you may be. I just didn't have the patience and other doctors didn't believe repeating the scalene block and performing SSEP was necessary in my case.

I think that a return to work after only 2 weeks is simply ridiculous. 3 months is much more realistic.
That is very useful information, Marc, thanks. It definitely seems like Gelabert is not very easy to get a hold of, and I followed your thread, you had noted before that the UCLA system is very slow-moving. I am going to give his office one last call, but am not expecting too much. I had the same experience, the other surgeons I spoke with don't believe those tests are necessary for me. I don't think I will be able to deal with the system either especially being long distance.


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Originally Posted by nospam View Post
Reachability was a huge factor in my surgeon selection. After finding Dr. Angle, I did not find it necessary to travel for surgery.

My surgeries with Dr. Angle were closer to 3 hours as they required neurolysis. However, I am a pretty sturdy guy and my recovery has been pretty fast. I only had 5 weeks between surgeries and only spent 24 hours in the hospital post-op each time.

In your position, I would definitely give the Denver guys a close look (I had planned to see Brantigan before choosing Angle). Urschel appears to be promising as well.
Yes, I definitely am hoping to speak with the Denver Drs next week. Hopefully I will have a decision made by the end of the week. I also need to find out whether Urschel does still operate or if he just oversees.

Did Angle completely remove 2 of your scalene muscles or cut and move them up? I am trying to figure out which is better in terms of reducing recurrence. I could have sworn I read somewhere that it is better to remove them, but can't find the source where I might have read that.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:04 PM #3
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You can't completely remove the median scalene muscle because the long thoracic nerve runs through it.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:31 AM #4
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You can't completely remove the median scalene muscle because the long thoracic nerve runs through it.
I'm sorry Limoges but I think you are mistaken. To my knowledge and from what I have found on the Internet, the scalene muscle can indeed be completely removed. The operation involves locating and securing the relevant blood vessels and nerves before resecting the ligaments and the scalene muscle. The surgeon simply locates the nerves in the operation field and holds them out of the way throughout the procedure.

As you would know, many surgeons advocate removal of the first rib combined with removal of the scalene muscle, although some apparently advocate removal of the muscle alone.

" We completely detach the anterior scalene muscle from the first rib as well as from the subclavian vein, artery, and attachments to the fascia beneath the subclavian artery, vein and brachial plexus...."

http://www.vascularinstitute.com/page19.htm

Even Wikipedia has a piece about it:
"Surgical approaches have also been used successfully in TOS. In cases where the first rib is compressing a vein, artery, or the nerve bundle, the first rib and scalene muscles and any compressive fibrous tissue can be removed..."


References:
http://www.vascularinstitute.com/page19.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoracic_outlet_syndrome
http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/co...full/75/4/1091
http://www.momentummedia.com/article...backobrien.htm
http://www.sharecare.com/question/remove-rib-surgery
http://www.surgery.ucla.edu/vascular...Syndrome.shtml


The following book describes the surgical procedure in full anatomical detail.

The Ischemic Extremity: New Findings and Treatment
By Heron E. Rodriguez, William H. Pearce, James S. T. Yao
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...emoved&f=false
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Old 07-02-2012, 11:10 AM #5
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If you read carefully, you'll see that I said the *medial* scalene muscle cannot be fully removed. I've had the anterior scalene muscle removed myself, so yes, this is possible, and it's helped me tremendously.
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:24 PM #6
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The link for The Ischemic Extremity: New Findings and Treatment
By Heron E. Rodriguez, William H. Pearce, James S. T. Yao
2010
is tricky, you will probably have better luck googling it to read the details , seems it limits views by the link. Can be found on Google books.

If you look at page 500- 502 there are images & descriptions showing middle scalene removal.
So it must be possible to do it and work around the LTN issue successfully.
Quite an interesting book, lots of details on how the various TOS surgeries are done.
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:31 PM #7
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I guess I trust the opinion of a surgeon who actually does this sort of thing frequently more than anything I read. I saw him just last week and asked the same question. He spent ten minutes explaining that removing the *entire* median/medial scalene muscle isn't possible. Of course there are anatomical variances where the long thoracic nerve doesn't bisect the muscle in a particular person.
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Old 07-02-2012, 12:39 PM #8
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I guess it's more appropriate to say that it's the opinion of my surgeon (one of the premier doctors who perform many of these surgeries successfully a year) that full removal of the medial/median scalene muscle isn't done. He showed me where he clips it to avoid damaging the long thoracic nerve.
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