Hi,

The more I figure out TOS, the more apparent is that its these scalene muscles which are the cause of all my problems and for many of us.

Dr Sanders noted scar tissue, in his examinations. Y'all are more knowledgeable than me about it.

They get tight & everything goes haywire.

Its like this - we have compressions at multiple levels thanks to our crappy computer/modern era lifestyle - but somehow while these would have caused RSI gradually, they didn't flare up beyond a point, because the hose pipe of nerve signals right at the top coming through the scalenes, kept the pressure going to get all the signals to each muscle.

Then one fine day, you get a whiplash injury, or stress out too much over work hunched over & its "game over, game over man" - as that dude in Aliens said. Suddenly, pain & problems are the new normal.

Now each time i took an estim shot right to the scalenes (I used a zapper called the InterX) - my symptoms cleared right up. In 2011, my hand pain went down to a 3/10 and my upper trapezius started behaving normally (it's that pain BTW which makes me go bonkers and makes me feel disabled).

Now, I tried a RSI program with therabands using the Flextend protocol. While it seems to have helped somewhat, my hand pains/arm pains/chest pains all came running with a vengeance.

In hindsight, I was "spasming" or pulling on my scalenes.

So, the million $ question - how do we fix them?

Has anybody tried a comprehensive, multimonth effort focused on:

1. Deep tissue massage (myotherapy)
2. Ultrasound
3. Electrotherapy (if need be to despasm the muscles and make them more amenable to be worked on)
4. Gapapentin etc to reduce nerve pain while muscle work is going on

Now, in another thread, Chroma mentioned that "grinding" his chest muscles/pec minor helped to keep that compression under control.

This gentleman got his RSI under control by extreme "grinding" the muscle under question and stretching away.

http://rsicure.sabhlokcity.com/

(I believe RSI & TOS have a commonality in that they involve adhesions and muscular dysfunction/weakness; people with RSI are more likely to get TOS and it worsens TOS to the point its unbearable).

Reason I believe it might work is because of the gent above (his 7 year effort to cure his RSI via myo therapy - but note he didn't have nerve dysfunction) and also other accounts i have read of massage therapy breaking down TOS (Stoxen's blog f.e.).

So the question is, have folks here tried a multi month/year effort to slowly massage the scalenes and make them nice little muscles again? Could this work? Thoughts ideas welcome.

Tips, what to avoid also welcome. We are in this boat together.

Massaging the scalenes often irritates them and causes them to get tighter. Try massaging them with oil to prevent overdoing it, castor oil, or massage oil.

Ultrasound guided botox injections is the only thing that has relaxed my scalenes in ten years. This along with physical therapy, possibly botox in the pec minor as well since you do computer work that likely does this. Try calling vascular surgeons ordain specialists to find out who can do the ultrasound guided botox or fluoriscope guided botox.

You could have dry needling in the traps and pec minor. This will temporarily relax these muscles, but it will come back most likely because your scalenes are tight.

Some people swear by acupuncture, I've never tried it.

You shouldn't use a tens machine on the front of the neck.

I don't recall saying that; you might have me confused with someone else. I've been stretching my pec minor. The effect is valuable, but I have to repeat it every 24 - 48 hours.

I believe @Coop42 and @mspennyloafer were digging into their pec minor with good results. IIRC they got better results than with stretching.

You may be interested to know that the authors of this book talk about breaking up muscle tension with heavy massage:

"It's Not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome!"
by Suparna Damany MSPT, Jack Bellis
http://www.amazon.com/Its-Carpal-Tun...dp/0965510999/
http://www.tosinfo.com/links/hcp/suparna.html

I have dug into my own scalenes a few times and gotten mixed results. One time I got serious relief which felt great, but only lasted a couple hours. Another time, I caused a flare up. There is a lot of stuff in your neck (nerves, blood vessels, muscles going every which way) and I'm not good at navigating that mess.

Currently, I'm struggling with crazy tension around my shoulder blade, but recently I have broke it up with my new fav tool, the RumbleRoller Beastie Ball. I press my upper back against it, against the wall and roll it around and dig it. Feels so good! Better than theracane and backknobber.

I'll probably return to scalene experiments after I get my back settled down. Here are some of my scalene notes btw:

Cervical Spine Muscles Scalenes chiropractor 3D animation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MygDJtu8EtA

Scalene Pain and Trigger Points
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMFsSzZ39s4

Bagpiper's Massage #1: The Scalene Muscles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4RbllbsEP0

Myofascial Pain Trigger Points pt.9 Anterior Scalene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISBY1Mke9To

Sometimes the rib is rotated anteriorly. What pulls it in that direction? Based on anatomy, I think it has to be the subclavius. Therefore when the rib is rotated anteriorly, one should work on the subclavius.
See:
"Myofascial Pain Trigger Points pt.1 Subclavius"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHtaFaOPlTk

...HTH

Hi Chroma,

I remember a post wherein you mentioned using a tennis ball against your pec minor? Perhaps I mixed you up with someone else. Can you tell me about which stretches you use for TOS - be a big help.

Does the rumble roller stuff/ Theracane stuff last in effect?

I'll go through the links. I bet they are useful, I need to figure out and understand a ton more.

Theracane didn't work well for me like the Beastie did. Your mileage may vary.

Since using the Beastie, my back has never gotten as tight as it was at its peak, but I still need to use it at least every other day. It's pretty fast though: about 2 - 5 minutes gives me some real improvement.

It still hasn't been long since I started, but so far so good.

Yes, I have been undergoing a program of physical therapy and lifestyle changes to address my neuro tos pain issues for 5 months now.
My p.t. utilizes manual therapy, light chiro, estim, exercizes, re-education about how pain works/pain and the brain. On my own, I've changed my diet to eliminate inflammation causing foods, begun challenging negative thought patterns, started walking-as Im able, started taking several supplements, and dedicated myself to following through with exercises my p.t. gives me at home. I've had progress in a few areas-I had pain in my jaw, tightness in front of neck, daily occipital headaches-all of that is only occasional now. The nerve pain from base of my neck down my arm is less, but still pretty regular-especially if I watch my grandsons, I cant totally resist picking them up I hope for continued improvement, but Im starting to think the nervy pain will never totally go away. :/

~Robin
www.rtosjourney.blogspot.com