Originally Posted by SnappleofDiscord

jzp119- (Forgive the long reply, I've been stuck in bed all day with the demon arm and am a little vocal on the ordeal.)

Kind of, sort of, maybe with the LTN. Like I mentioned, it's variable depending on your specific injury, anatomy, and duration. It could work! Most docs aren't used to dealing with LTN injury, even less accustomed to LTN injury without palsy. A stretch injury is too often approached as either it gets better through PT strengthening the supporting shoulder muscles, or you wait until there's some major measurable damage and deal with that. This is only commentary through experience and research however, while the reality of dealing with it is Immensely dependent on your doc's experience and interest. The board still won't let me post links, but I'd be glad to PM you and Akash, or anyone, some medical articles.

The appreciation goes both ways. It's a weird relief to just hear of someone outside of a dated medical publication who can confirm that yeah, this happens.

And right to the guts with your climbing worries! I was still free climbing and rigging about 6 months in to my injury (bad plan), and the betrayal of not being able to trust my grip, or Thinking of life where I'm just.. Done. Purgatory. I mention this to every doc. It's apparently important to set a standard of the activity level you want to return to when dealing with an injury only 80yo hunchbacks get, and like you am tired of being passed off and told to limp it.

I think your docs and my docs hang out at the same country club together.
WTF!? Even with a history or dislocation?! That's just.. ugh.. I'm sorry dude. You got hosed.
With this last experience it, logically, shouldn't be too hard to convince an orthopedic doc or a neurologist to send you back for another EMG. (I've been through 3, in varying levels in apathy and disinterest, and every one said THEY were doing it the way it should have been done while testing totally different things.) However, the situation unfortunately is rarely based on logic, more so on your insurance or age or interest of the doc. You always have the option of not mentioning or excluding the results of your last test to the next doc. You could remind them how operator specific EMG results are. If focusing on the scapula is going nowhere (mine didn't) ask about your neck, brachial plexus, scar tissue, etc. Try some lidocaine injections, acupuncture, all that jazz, which you shouldn't need an EMG for that kind of post traumatic pain treatment. If you're at a 3/10, that's pretty awesome all considering, and you may find a lot of success there.

And I feel ya man, it takes forever to get in with someone. Followed by the soul crushing moment of being brushed off. I'm at 46 docs now, the first 34 of which were a constant loop of people collecting my office visit fee and immediately telling me I was someone else's problem. I've had docs blow me off without even examining me (kept a tally first 34 docs, sometimes 2 at a time, only 12 were willing to touch my shoulder), send in their secretaries instead, one dude said my dislocation was purposeful and I was looking for attention, another one literally threw his pen and said "We're done here!" when I argued against his treatment plan of resting my 2yo injury. One trip to the ER after a Really bad PT left me unable to breathe, the doc told me that sometimes his arm hurts too and it's not that big of a deal. It took a year and a half to find someone who agreed that my constantly dislocating arm was gross, a problem, and probably also very painful. About half of that was waiting. You'll be told you're drug seeking, complaining, making it up, etc, but ya gotta get your life back somehow. I was 28 when I got hurt, and still had all my muscle mass the 1st year or so, and got the same blow off of too young, too healthy. Who knows what the cut off point is of "old enough to hurt". Now I'm withered husk I get accused of drug seeking, even though I refuse pain rx. Don't let someone's professional problems keep you from having an arm.

Try not to be too hard on the surgery too. The most vocal people are the ones it didn't help, but a lot of them are not at your activity level, or motivation, or health. People who it helps just.. don't need to talk about it anymore. A lot of people on here have mentioned how important it is to find the Right surgeon too, and it makes sense, as nerve injury after shoulder trauma is apparently at the same reporting rate as being abducted by aliens. Famous athletes, pitchers, rowers, etc get that jazz all the time and go back to doing what they do. I have one friend who was back to body building the week after surgery. Still, I've also had docs tell me I'll Never go back to sports and climbing, or lifting heavy things is not something little girls like myself should be doing, and why would I ever kayak again after what I've been through? (One doc suggested I'd be much happier sewing and I wouldn't have to do so much physical labor if I just found a husband. Super!) It's a gamble but you'll know when they stakes are high enough.

As for activity level, you're on a whole different planet than me currently! Keep doing what you're doing, as it may have a lot to do with keeping your pain level down. Take note of your positions and posture while studying, it may be a bigger deal than before. I do think it's possible to fully recover. More reasonable to Mostly recover. PT seems to agree despite my bug-sprayed-with-raid lifestyle. I crushed my hand in a work accident like 9 years ago and was supposed to lose 2 of my fingers, but I got that back to full function through stubbornness. What's an arm?
Sleep is near impossible (note the post time) as no matter how I position myself, I can't seem to find a way to calm my arm or relax my neck. The current best is on my good side my with the bad arm propped parallel to my chest, neck slack, or with my bad side slightly propped on a pillow allowing my scapula to fall in to place and my levator to relax. Previously I could only sleep on my chest with a pillow pushing my shoulder in to place, so try this too.
I hope you don't have the same affliction, but based on your asking, seriously get someone to look in to your neck muscles/brachial plexus. There's symptoms and then there's SYMPTOMS, and serratus anterior, LTN, shouldn't be keeping you up consistently. That points to issues further up the nerve network.
My current activity level is similar to that of Howard Hughes, where I'm confined to the house and bed most of the time. I lived full time on the road, and about a year in I had to leave my job, my house, everything and have my Mom come pick me up from half way across the country because I couldn't consistently do daily tasks. About 6 months ago I stopped being able to drive at all and loading the dishwasher is akin to fingernail torture. Before that I was doing acrobatics, construction, stage work, kayaking, rucking, rigging and lifting even with the bum arm, I think that's what helped stave it off for so long. I ran a Lot up until recently. It helped distract my neck and shoulders from cramping, and when that started to fail I switched to barefoot which worked Amazingly for a while. After shoulder surgery the bouncing weight of my arm became too much.
Now I'm on old lady level. I do a lot of meditating, modified yoga, biofeedback, and low impact resistance work for my core, shoulders, and neck. I have PT 3x a week, and If I'm feeling wild I walk my dog. I used a rake the other day and my family prepped for me to be totally incapacitated for the following week. It's. Maddening. I'm clearly not in a place to give solid advice on how to keep the symptoms at bay, but the best I can offer is keep your activity level high and keep limber while still being patient with your mortal body. Coming to a full halt is going to make recovery a lot harder whatever path you wind up going down.

Originally Posted by jzp119

Yes please send articles!

Purgatory is the perfect word for it. Just done. I know exactly what you mean. I feel like Ive just lost the last 3 years without doing the stuff I really like doing. Doctors dont really seem to care though? Like as long as we can painlessly lay in bed and eat cheetohs were healthy enough for them. Its brutal, I just want to climb stuff and lift things for once.

The idea of getting another EMG makes my skin crawl. Just thinking about it in terms of wait times til I even get scheduled for an EMG, then the doctors follow up, would take 10-14 months alone. I likely wont be feeling better, like back to normal better, for a very long time. Sigh.

What bothers me the most is that its always "youre young it'll heal" but when I imevitably have the exact same symptoms in 30 years they'll say "youre 50! Thats what happens when your 50!"

Im sorry about your healthcare experience. The whole thing is BS. Like wtf? There are people that smoke, eat bad food, never exercise, do drugs, drink excessively and they get amazing health care to improve their quality of life. But active people under the age of thirty have their nerves being compressed and we can get help???? I swear to god in a hundred years they will look back on the treatment that TOSers got and shake their heads. Seriously, rest it? My entire life is "resting it".


A real medical doctor suggested that, because you're female, you should not do anything active? Holy ****, Its like if the 1950s could manifest as one single person, it would be that doctor. I hope he crashes his porsche.

And the surgery can be successful. But there are literally thousands of posts on here about it making people worse, and not a single success story of return to competetive sport or real athletics/fitness. I would think if they were out there, at least one success story would be on one of these forums just to say, hey im better, I know I would. Most docs tell me that regardless of whats wrong, having a problem for 3 years will have irreversible side effects. But wait.. You had a friend who.. Actually got better.. Like real weight lifting bodybuilding? Completely back to normal??? I need to know more about her situation. Did she have the one where just the vein is pinched? Those people seem to have better outcomes. This is one of the best things ive heard in a long time. I was under the impression that this was a death sentence.


And im so sorry about losing so much because of this, i completely understand how you feel. It's extremely hard to handle. developing nerve atuff as an athlete/heavy worker is almost worse than if you were a non athlete. In your case you had so much more to lose compared to the average hunchback computer desk folks. This is one of my biggest pet peeves as well with explaining this disorder to people. Like im interested in RETURN TO PREVIOUS ACTIVITY, not being pain free so long as I NEVER use my arms. I feel so much empathy for you because I totally understand losing so much of your identity to this.


As far as sleeping goes, the only way I can sleep is if I do some combination of upper trap work, lower trap work, serratus work, roll my chest with a lacrosse ball, foam roll my upper back, and stretch everything as good as possible. I also HAVE TO sleep on hard floor on my back with almost no pillow. It sounds crappy but im used to it now and the floor helps my symptoms alot. I find that I feel amazing in the morning for about an hour then eventually my shoulders go to hell. I dont know what you've tried to improve sleep quality, but Doing some exercises and stretches and sleeping on hardwood on my back got me back to sleeping normally, its progress. Honestly my symptoms get brutal when I even lay on a bed or a couch for more than 20 minutes. Anything with cushion is a no go.


There has to be a way to reclaim previous quality of life. This cant just be it. Please PM me! I would love to talk back and forth. Its hard to read a long post and not forget to include something while replying. So forgive me if I did!

Originally Posted by jarrodethan

Hey jzp119
We could be in a similar situation, however it's been 10 years I've been trying to fix this and finally now I'm gonna go all out to fix it. It may require me traveling to US from Australia as there doesn't seem to be a lot of experts here at all.

What set me off to get serious about this was reading about Baseball pitcher Chris Young and how he made a complete recovery from similar symptoms to mine. Link; tos.wustl.edu/en/Patient-Features/Chris-Youngs-Story

My case;
- 33 year old male
- Football, surfing and martial arts non-stop growing up
- Around 22 I hurt my shoulder lifting weights
- Diagnosed with torn rotator cuff (supraspinatus)
- Never really healed despite $$$ spent on PT etc.
- PT had me doing painful neck stretching causing pins and needles (This may be the source of my problem)
- Realized my scapular is winging and my shoulder is a few inches higher
- Winging seems to be Dorsal Scapular Nerve related (Rhomboids/Lev Scap) as my serratus seems ok and the winging itself is subtle
- EMG says everything normal except 'Borderline changes in Rhomboid/Levator Scap.'
- MRI etc. no problems found
- Neurologist baffled and wants to show me to his colleagues
- All up I've prob seen 20 doctors and PTs
- Kept training in the gym fpr last few years with progress being 3 steps forward 2 steps back. i.e. Make progress one week>symptoms flare up>I lose strength>start again>repeat
- Symptoms are; Dull ache, heavy arm, pins and needles in fingers, shoulder clicking, shoulder arm weakness
- I always get this burning in neck area and a strange burning/pulling feeling in my trap/neck when I sit at a computer


Had some frustrating days but I'm pretty confident I'll get it fixed. Basically now I'm ready to do whatever it takes to get it fixed, will pay anything to go overseas and get the surgery. Will try here first but it's not looking good so far. I will keep you/this thread updated, hopefully you can do the same.

This pic of a model illustrates one of my main problems, I have built my trap muscles up significantly but on the injured side there is a chunk missing (the bit up near the neck that runs at an angle). Possibly levator scapula.

Can someone post this I don't have enough posts
i.imgur(dot)com/JHV5wsH.jpg