Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Thoracic Outlet Syndrome/Brachial Plexopathy. In Memory Of DeAnne Marie.


advertisement
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-04-2015, 11:16 AM #41
Hiker Hiker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 111
8 yr Member
Hiker Hiker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 111
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash View Post
Holy ..
This is what I just discovered my pain area is:
http://www.physio-pedia.com/File:Self_Exercise.png

Supraspinatus pain. It just won't go away.
This is exactly where I had bad pain for over a year on both sides and where I now have atrophy. I thought for a while it could be supraspinatus, but it is the middle trap in my case. They attach to the scapula in the same place.
Supraspinatus works on arm abduction (raising arm to the side) and middle trap does scapular stabilization and retraction when reaching backwards.
If any of these movements increase the pain, it might be the clue.
Hiker is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
Akash (08-04-2015)

advertisement
Old 08-04-2015, 12:52 PM #42
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiker View Post
This is exactly where I had bad pain for over a year on both sides and where I now have atrophy. I thought for a while it could be supraspinatus, but it is the middle trap in my case. They attach to the scapula in the same place.
Supraspinatus works on arm abduction (raising arm to the side) and middle trap does scapular stabilization and retraction when reaching backwards.
If any of these movements increase the pain, it might be the clue.
TY! In my case the pain appears when I reach for a computer mouse. I first thought its due to serratus not working due to LTN getting caught in the scalenes. Since this is where the rhomboid and levator attach and both hurt if serratus is weak (unopposed), but then I realized that even though I seem to have got my serratus working somewhat, and can raise my arms now, this pain is still there at the exact spot.

Another thing is I can work with elbows to the side on laptop with horrible posture from time to time, and my shoulders hiked (which would mean Upper Trap is working, right?) but this pain occurs when i work with my hand to the side since my chair has an arm rest located to the sides.
http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/coursep...r_limb_05.html

This says serratus and upper trap become useful only after 90 degrees.
http://anatomyresources.hsc.wvu.edu/...Abduction.html
Neuromuscular deficit: Weakness/paralysis when abducting at the shoulder under resistance. In normal subjects the supraspinatus initiates the first 15 degrees of abduction along the vertical plane. The deltoid functions from 15 to 90 degrees, while synergistic actions of the trapezius and serratus anterior abduct from 90 to 180 degrees by rotating the scapula laterally. Denervation is accompanied by muscular atrophy, shoulder adduction, ‘winged’ scapula, and cutaneous deficit along the distribution of the axillary (superior lateral brachial cutaneous) nerve.

Another thing I just realized is this always made me feel worse. But this comes up as a supraspinatus stretch too in the google image search!
http://www.teachpe.com/images/jenny/...r_stretch2.jpg

I was trying to stretch my rhomboids since they would be overstrong with a very weak serratus.

So its probably supraspinatus i guess.. is that logical

Question is how to rehab it.
Akash is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-04-2015, 03:17 PM #43
Hiker Hiker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 111
8 yr Member
Hiker Hiker is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: CA
Posts: 111
8 yr Member
Default

Yes, for me computer mouse is the worst offender. I think this is the prolonged static load on the muscles that is the problem, not so much a particular motion.
I switched to a handheld trackball which I hold behind my back so that I don't need to use any shoulder muscles. It helps.
Hiker is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-05-2015, 12:20 AM #44
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrodethan View Post
Hey jzp119
We could be in a similar situation, however it's been 10 years I've been trying to fix this and finally now I'm gonna go all out to fix it. It may require me traveling to US from Australia as there doesn't seem to be a lot of experts here at all.

What set me off to get serious about this was reading about Baseball pitcher Chris Young and how he made a complete recovery from similar symptoms to mine. Link; tos.wustl.edu/en/Patient-Features/Chris-Youngs-Story

My case;
- 33 year old male
- Football, surfing and martial arts non-stop growing up
- Around 22 I hurt my shoulder lifting weights
- Diagnosed with torn rotator cuff (supraspinatus)
- Never really healed despite $$$ spent on PT etc.
- PT had me doing painful neck stretching causing pins and needles (This may be the source of my problem)
- Realized my scapular is winging and my shoulder is a few inches higher
- Winging seems to be Dorsal Scapular Nerve related (Rhomboids/Lev Scap) as my serratus seems ok and the winging itself is subtle
- EMG says everything normal except 'Borderline changes in Rhomboid/Levator Scap.'
- MRI etc. no problems found
- Neurologist baffled and wants to show me to his colleagues
- All up I've prob seen 20 doctors and PTs
- Kept training in the gym fpr last few years with progress being 3 steps forward 2 steps back. i.e. Make progress one week>symptoms flare up>I lose strength>start again>repeat
- Symptoms are; Dull ache, heavy arm, pins and needles in fingers, shoulder clicking, shoulder arm weakness
- I always get this burning in neck area and a strange burning/pulling feeling in my trap/neck when I sit at a computer


Had some frustrating days but I'm pretty confident I'll get it fixed. Basically now I'm ready to do whatever it takes to get it fixed, will pay anything to go overseas and get the surgery. Will try here first but it's not looking good so far. I will keep you/this thread updated, hopefully you can do the same.

This pic of a model illustrates one of my main problems, I have built my trap muscles up significantly but on the injured side there is a chunk missing (the bit up near the neck that runs at an angle). Possibly levator scapula.

Can someone post this I don't have enough posts
i.imgur(dot)com/JHV5wsH.jpg

Yep we have the exact same symptoms and likely the exact same (or similar) problem. Do let me know how your recovery goes alright? Feel free to PM me or anything. I am glad you are optimistic and looking to get things fixed 100%, that's always the best mindset. It can be hard to maintain when the aching shoulders are at their worst.
jzp119 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-05-2015, 02:38 AM #45
jarrodethan jarrodethan is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2
8 yr Member
jarrodethan jarrodethan is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 2
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash View Post
Holy ..
This is what I just discovered my pain area is:

Supraspinatus pain. It just won't go away.

And my symptoms to a T:
- I always get this burning in neck area and a strange burning/pulling feeling in my trap/neck when I sit at a computer

And:
- Symptoms are; Dull ache, heavy arm, pins and needles in fingers, shoulder clicking, shoulder arm weakness

I think I injured my Supraspinatus or the nerve itself when I fell with my arm outstretched.

Can you tell me some of the PT you did?


Before you move to the US, I'd suggest you seek out Lynn Watson, she is a PT with TOS experience from Australia with several papers to her credit.
Hey, cool to hear someone feels the same weird sensation
But here's where I might confuse you a bit, my supraspinatus tear was confirmed by ultrasound and did take a long time to heal but I'm sure it is definltely healed by now as I can easliy abduct my arm and am strong (lateral raise in weightlifting).
So the original diagnosis of of supraspinatus tear is different to my current TOS sypmtoms, and quite possibly my original tear may have been caused by the then unrecognised TOS.

As for PT I did; nothing seemed to make it significantly better. I did external rotations and shoulder abduction with therabands mostly. I finally made progress when I started lifting decent weights and concentrating on the back muscles. Dumbbell rows significantly strengthened my trap and rhomboids and provided stability. Doctors are now shocked at first when the hypertrophy of my trap muscles in the injured shoulder. If you want to know more details let me know.

Either way I'm going to get to the bottom of it so I'll keep you posted
Also I'll check out Lynn Watson, I appreciate the tip
jarrodethan is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-05-2015, 11:21 AM #46
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Default

There are only three things I can think of when abducting the arm in "computer mouse" position.

Serratus problem
Trapezius issue (upper, mid traps)
Supraspinatus -
Deltoid

I am thinking it shouldn't be Long Thoracic Nerve/Serratus as if we are sitting with arms very slightly abducted, the Serratus requirement should be minimized, correct?

Is your pain area the same as I linked?
http://www.physio-pedia.com/File:Self_Exercise.png
Akash is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-07-2015, 05:19 PM #47
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrodethan View Post
Hey, cool to hear someone feels the same weird sensation
But here's where I might confuse you a bit, my supraspinatus tear was confirmed by ultrasound and did take a long time to heal but I'm sure it is definltely healed by now as I can easliy abduct my arm and am strong (lateral raise in weightlifting).
So the original diagnosis of of supraspinatus tear is different to my current TOS sypmtoms, and quite possibly my original tear may have been caused by the then unrecognised TOS.

As for PT I did; nothing seemed to make it significantly better. I did external rotations and shoulder abduction with therabands mostly. I finally made progress when I started lifting decent weights and concentrating on the back muscles. Dumbbell rows significantly strengthened my trap and rhomboids and provided stability. Doctors are now shocked at first when the hypertrophy of my trap muscles in the injured shoulder. If you want to know more details let me know.

Either way I'm going to get to the bottom of it so I'll keep you posted
Also I'll check out Lynn Watson, I appreciate the tip

Supraspinatus injury is very common with scapular instability. Mine has tendonosis. I think that it is mostly a symptom of a larger problem. But what do I know.

Also, jarroddethan, please share any info with me, because our conditions are so similar that your progress might be super helpful.
jzp119 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
Akash (08-07-2015)
Old 08-07-2015, 05:36 PM #48
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzp119 View Post
Supraspinatus injury is very common with scapular instability. Mine has tendonosis. I think that it is mostly a symptom of a larger problem. But what do I know.

Also, jarroddethan, please share any info with me, because our conditions are so similar that your progress might be super helpful.
So a weak, misfiring serratus --> scapular instability---> supraspinatus tendinitis.

Can strengthening the rotator cuff take some of the load off the traps and scapular stabilizers?

I think mine are very weak as I get my humeral head click/impinge when I reach overhead.
Akash is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-08-2015, 04:57 PM #49
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Akash Akash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 330
8 yr Member
Default

JZP, just sent you a PM. Please check.
Akash is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 08-09-2015, 12:18 AM #50
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
jzp119 jzp119 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 66
8 yr Member
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akash View Post
So a weak, misfiring serratus --> scapular instability---> supraspinatus tendinitis.

Can strengthening the rotator cuff take some of the load off the traps and scapular stabilizers?

I think mine are very weak as I get my humeral head click/impinge when I reach overhead.
Yep I think so but I think it would go more like this (in my non medical meaningless opinion)

For unknown reason, be it postural change, trauma, the scalenes become the primary stabilizing muscles of the cervical spine--> the brachial plexus become pinched between the anterior and medial scalene--> the increased size of the scalenes may cause the first rib to rise, further compressing the nerves--> serratus misfires-->shoulder blade unstable-->decreased subacromial soace--> supraspinatus injury
jzp119 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
"Thanks for this!" says:
Akash (08-09-2015)
Reply

Tags
ntos, scapular winging, shoulder impingement, tos, training

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Msudawg89 Thoracic Outlet Syndrome 83 08-29-2019 01:18 PM
Thoracic outlet syndrome and shoulder tendonitis saragir Thoracic Outlet Syndrome 17 07-28-2014 01:01 PM
anyone had a winging scapular richard d Thoracic Outlet Syndrome 6 12-12-2007 01:58 PM
Thoracic Outlet Syndrome moneymaker8 New Member Introductions 1 05-28-2007 05:20 PM
Thoracic outlet syndrome extileman Thoracic Outlet Syndrome 6 12-26-2006 11:49 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin • Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.7.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
 

NeuroTalk Forums

Helping support those with neurological and related conditions.

 

The material on this site is for informational purposes only,
and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment
provided by a qualified health care provider.


Always consult your doctor before trying anything you read here.