[Dontbeamelvin]

Hi all,

I am writing this to inform everybody of something that may be causing your thoracic outlet syndrome. This is not a sure cure for everybody as there are many different reasons for thoracic outlet syndrome. I recommend taking a quick read of this article as much of it pertains to depressed scapula.

Overcoming Chronic Neck Pain: Postural Causes and A Unique Exercise Fix | Fix The Shoulder Blades — The Exercise

There's a lot of info in this article relating to studies that have shown that a depressed scapula or shoulder can actually cause thoracic outlet syndrome symptoms. This article provides a lot of information on how to go about fixing this problem. It also has links to studies of people who have dealt with this problem and fixed it. I am currently working on the workouts in this article and am actually seeing results finally.

I am also going to provide you all with a link to a blog that I came across. This particular person had depressed shoulders and chronic neck pain along with thoracic outlet syndrome. If you are in the pain that I have been in I highly recommend you take the time to read his experience. He talks about going through PT doing the typical stretching routines and not finding success. He finally comes across a PT who notices his depressed shoulders and put him on a strengthening routine that he outlines in his blog. He includes videos and lifestyle changes that improved his life tremendously.

Remy's Remedies

I have tried to get ahold of this particular person but it doesn't seem that the comments on his site are working unfortunately. But I would like to give a big shout out to him regardless because I feel like I may have finally found the answer to getting out of my chronic pain. Therefore because I finally have hope and this forum has been a great place for me I thought I would share this with all of you in case it might help.

I am still going to PT and I brought this up with them and fortunately they are very receptive to my ideas. They did indeed tell me that this goes against traditional thought. But after months of minor success and setbacks we have agreed to try something different.

Also here is one more scientific article about dropped shoulder syndrome.

Dropped shoulder syndrome: a cause of lower cervical radiculopathy. - PubMed - NCBI

I hope these resources do good for some. I have spent months researching my own issues. The traditional shoulders back and down and stretching routines just weren't doing it for me and actually made things worse. I feel that I still have a long road ahead but I also feel like there may be a clear path forward now.

Best of luck! Let me know what you all think and if you pursue this avenue please share your results for others.

[DarKnight]

Hey. I actually have trapezius injury on my right side and my shoulder is a little pushed forward. the situation is quite bad that I cant elevate the shoulder up as it is stuck. but I do not have T.O.S on that side. Roo's test is false.
anatomically speaking, only an extra rib/medial scalene/anterior scalene
can cause compression in the brachial plexus area...
shoulder related injuries are different syndromes.
on my left side though - I have T.O.S(A. Scalene is deformed) but my shoulder is perfectly well, I can easily move it around/elevate it whatever.
so; bad shoulder muscles like traps and scapula in my opinion can aggravate T.O.S - not cause it.
if you are serious about studying the neck muscles and diseases...
1) study neck anatomy such as muscles and blood vessels
2) study thier function(google it)
3) perform tests that are available on youtube to see if they are injured

that's what I did and that's how I know exactly whats wrong with me.

[Dontbeamelvin]

Hate to disappoint you but if you read the links I posted you would understand how a droopy shoulder can cause tightness in the scalenes and cause TOS. Please read the material before replying as your reply might scare people away from beneficial information.

These are studies carried out by doctors in the field. So yes, droopy shoulder can and does cause TOS. Is it the sole cause? No. Of course not. Nothing is that black and white.

Thanks for your input but I do not agree with you. I have studied the neck, the nerves and vessels/arteries of the thoracic outlet. The roos test and many other tests are not even viable tests. Often times people fail these tests and have no symptoms.

I am not going to type why droopy shoulders can cause TOS because I already linked the scientific studies and info on it which you apparently did not read .

[DarKnight]

Originally Posted by Dontbeamelvin

Hate to disappoint you but if you read the links I posted you would understand how a droopy shoulder can cause tightness in the scalenes and cause TOS. Please read the material before replying as your reply might scare people away from beneficial information.

These are studies carried out by doctors in the field. So yes, droopy shoulder can and does cause TOS. Is it the sole cause? No. Of course not. Nothing is that black and white.

Thanks for your input but I do not agree with you. I have studied the neck, the nerves and vessels/arteries of the thoracic outlet. The roos test and many other tests are not even viable tests. Often times people fail these tests and have no symptoms.

I am not going to type why droopy shoulders can cause TOS because I already linked the scientific studies and info on it which you apparently did not read .

Hey again. I did read your articles but T.O.S was only mentioned 2 times, 1 time it even says " Thoracic outlet syndrome may be involved".

I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here - shoulders are dropped, so fix shoulder muscles, and that will fix T.O.S because magic? all of the sudden the scalenes will be healed? pec minor? would it not make more sense to actually work on the bad muscles such as pec minor and scalenes? work on the shoulder too just as a precaution because when the shoulder is dropped the hand is also dropped and that can further damage the muscles. that's called an aggrevator, not a direct cause - rather indirect.

and Roo's test is indeed accurate but needs to be combined with other tests such as laterally raising the hand up and waiting a few seconds, or stretching the median & ulnar nerves and seeing if they are tense(it should hurt a lot. look these stretches up on youtube). so don't doubt these tests man. they specifically activate certain nerves and they can imply T.O.S. remember that many syndromes can happen simutainsly to people like the two of us who worked infront of the PC. so you can have T.O.S from simply straining the muscles.

[Dontbeamelvin]

Originally Posted by DarKnight

Hey again. I did read your articles but T.O.S was only mentioned 2 times, 1 time it even says " Thoracic outlet syndrome may be involved".

I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say here - shoulders are dropped, so fix shoulder muscles, and that will fix T.O.S because magic? all of the sudden the scalenes will be healed? pec minor? would it not make more sense to actually work on the bad muscles such as pec minor and scalenes? work on the shoulder too just as a precaution because when the shoulder is dropped the hand is also dropped and that can further damage the muscles. that's called an aggrevator, not a direct cause - rather indirect.

and Roo's test is indeed accurate but needs to be combined with other tests such as laterally raising the hand up and waiting a few seconds, or stretching the median & ulnar nerves and seeing if they are tense(it should hurt a lot. look these stretches up on youtube). so don't doubt these tests man. they specifically activate certain nerves and they can imply T.O.S. remember that many syndromes can happen simutainsly to people like the two of us who worked infront of the PC. so you can have T.O.S from simply straining the muscles.

If you read the blog and read the exercises.. and watched the videos there are actually videos on how to strengthen scalenes. If your shoulder is dropped or droopy it puts excessive tension on the neck muscles including the scalenes. By strengthening the shoulder girdle and neck musculature it allows the shoulder to rise up and lifts the collarbone. When the shoulder is lifted the scalenes, levator scapulae, and upper trap are no longer put on a chronic stretch which causes the atrophy. So no. It's not magic. Pec minor is also a shoulder muscle. The pec minor and latissimus dorsi pull you into hunched posture and also can aid in the process of droopy shoulder syndrome. By strengthening the shoulder and stretching the lats and pecs minor, they will slowly work back to their lengthened state.

I'm not a big fan of your condescending tone in your messages. If you didn't notice I said this isn't a cure all for everyone. I also linked to several scientific studies where they had success treating some people with thoracic outlet syndrome "like" symptoms. My point is that thoracic outlet syndrome is a series of symptoms, it is not a proper diagnoses. By that I mean just saying you have thoracic outlet syndrome does not imply any cause. There are many causes of thoracic outlet syndrome. This is ONE of them. I do not have cervical ribs, and quite frankly I don't buy that I suddenly have a deformation or issue with a muscle for no reason.

My reasoning is such that I got myself here with poor habits and movement patterns, therefore there must be a way to restore proper movement and habits and heal. If you choose to believe that you have lived your entire life with a deformed scalenes that all the sudden began causing you symptoms that is fantastic. I hope you find your answer to your problems. I am just trying to provide ideas for people that are suffering as I am.

There is no need for you to shoot down ideas, and reputable research. That only adds to the hopelessness that I am sure many people feel. There is no magic in working hard to fix your body. What is "magic" to me is that you can "release" a muscle and it magically heals people. If that worked would this forum even exist? Everyone would just go to the massage therapist every once in a while and be fine.

By the way I know about the nerve glides, and yes they hurt. But imply does not mean you have it. Like I said. Many people can show false positives, this is why they are not considered reliable tests. But I am honestly done replying to you. You choose to believe what you want. I will continue to try and find answers and share what I find.

Based on what I have read from you, you have accepted the idea that you just have a bad scalene and it can't be fixed. If you feel that way, go get the surgery and be done with it.

[DarKnight]

Originally Posted by Dontbeamelvin

If you read the blog and read the exercises.. and watched the videos there are actually videos on how to strengthen scalenes. If your shoulder is dropped or droopy it puts excessive tension on the neck muscles including the scalenes. By strengthening the shoulder girdle and neck musculature it allows the shoulder to rise up and lifts the collarbone. When the shoulder is lifted the scalenes, levator scapulae, and upper trap are no longer put on a chronic stretch which causes the atrophy. So no. It's not magic. Pec minor is also a shoulder muscle. The pec minor and latissimus dorsi pull you into hunched posture and also can aid in the process of droopy shoulder syndrome. By strengthening the shoulder and stretching the lats and pecs minor, they will slowly work back to their lengthened state.

I'm not a big fan of your condescending tone in your messages. If you didn't notice I said this isn't a cure all for everyone. I also linked to several scientific studies where they had success treating some people with thoracic outlet syndrome "like" symptoms. My point is that thoracic outlet syndrome is a series of symptoms, it is not a proper diagnoses. By that I mean just saying you have thoracic outlet syndrome does not imply any cause. There are many causes of thoracic outlet syndrome. This is ONE of them. I do not have cervical ribs, and quite frankly I don't buy that I suddenly have a deformation or issue with a muscle for no reason.

My reasoning is such that I got myself here with poor habits and movement patterns, therefore there must be a way to restore proper movement and habits and heal. If you choose to believe that you have lived your entire life with a deformed scalenes that all the sudden began causing you symptoms that is fantastic. I hope you find your answer to your problems. I am just trying to provide ideas for people that are suffering as I am.

There is no need for you to shoot down ideas, and reputable research. That only adds to the hopelessness that I am sure many people feel. There is no magic in working hard to fix your body. What is "magic" to me is that you can "release" a muscle and it magically heals people. If that worked would this forum even exist? Everyone would just go to the massage therapist every once in a while and be fine.

By the way I know about the nerve glides, and yes they hurt. But imply does not mean you have it. Like I said. Many people can show false positives, this is why they are not considered reliable tests. But I am honestly done replying to you. You choose to believe what you want. I will continue to try and find answers and share what I find.

Based on what I have read from you, you have accepted the idea that you just have a bad scalene and it can't be fixed. If you feel that way, go get the surgery and be done with it.

" If you choose to believe that you have lived your entire life with a deformed scalenes that all the sudden began causing you symptoms "
I didn't say that. only a VERY small precentage of T.O.S sufferers are born with a deformity. most of them get the deformity by doing repetitive hand motions over a long period of time without rest(or having extra rib grow all of the sudden). I got that info by data that I read online from PubMed etc.
Now coming back to your droppy shoulder... yes I understood that collarbone theory very well and I agree with it to an extent. but I will continue to support my position that it can put extra pressure on neck & chest muscles, therefore contributing to existing T.O.S. but I will not agree that it is a direct cause and that is where we will not come to agreement. maybe in rare cases it will actually cause T.O.S.

[Dontbeamelvin]

Originally Posted by DarKnight

" If you choose to believe that you have lived your entire life with a deformed scalenes that all the sudden began causing you symptoms "
I didn't say that. only a VERY small precentage of T.O.S sufferers are born with a deformity. most of them get the deformity by doing repetitive hand motions over a long period of time without rest(or having extra rib grow all of the sudden). I got that info by data that I read online from PubMed etc.
Now coming back to your droppy shoulder... yes I understood that collarbone theory very well and I agree with it to an extent. but I will continue to support my position that it can put extra pressure on neck & chest muscles, therefore contributing to existing T.O.S. but I will not agree that it is a direct cause and that is where we will not come to agreement. maybe in rare cases it will actually cause T.O.S.

That's fine. Don't need you to believe it. Lol there's plenty of studies on pubmed that prove it can cause it.

[Dontbeamelvin]

For those of you following this post. I would like to add that trigger point work in the lower trap as well as the latissimus dorsi seem to help tremendously in practicing to raise the shoulder blades. These two muscles in particular can radiate pain down the inner side of the arm into the 4th and 5th fingers. They also work to depress the scapula, so if they are tight you will find a lot of restriction in the upward rotation of the scapula. The upper traps will feel tight and if you try to do shrugs you'll notice it's very difficult. I'd recommend investing in a lacrosse ball and releasing these muscles before doing any upper trapezius exercises, and also think about releasing them if you are having a lot of pain down into the 4th and 5th fingers. Releasing is a great way of symptom control but strengthening and lifestyle changes seem to be the only way to get lasting results. Cheers.

[Dontbeamelvin]

Figured I would add this link.

How to truly identify and treat thoracic outlet syndrome (TOS) - Treningogrehab.no

I think I may have posted it somewhere else as well.

This is a rather technical article. I hope in the future once I have gotten myself back to mostly normal or normal to write a bit of a guide from my own perspective. Until now I will share what I learn in bits in pieces as a sort of journal.

[Jomar]

You can also add info links to the TOS sticky threads, for future members.