Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Thoracic Outlet Syndrome/Brachial Plexopathy. In Memory Of DeAnne Marie.


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Old 09-29-2007, 09:36 PM #1
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Default Thyroid-TOS connection

Hi,

So many times this comes up. There is absolutely no connection between the two. No way no how.

They are TWO DIFFERENT body systems. I have asked a TOP endocrinologist I worked with at a medical college and she said, NO WAY.

I asked Dr. Roos (grandfather of TOS and teacher of many fine TOS surgeons) he said, NO. Well, first he smiled, then said no.

I asked Dr. Brantigan, he replied & I asked him if I could quote him and he said yes. Here's his answer:

>>>> It's nuts. Lots of women in their 40’s have hypothyroidism but there is no way it is related to TOS. Cob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would hope this helps the many questions there are. TOS is found mostly in women in their 40's and 50's which is when most thyroid (especially hypo) is found. I worked for many years in endocrine and I know without a doubt one has nothing to do with the other.

I know many will still try to find a connection or not believe it no matter what. But I would hope this helps free up spare time to enjoy many other things in life then worrying about something that isn't connected. It's bad enough having to deal with TOS, but if one keeps trying to add onto TOS when there is no need too, it will make the TOS seem not so bad if it isn't connected to everything we have wrong with us. I have other things wrong and having worked in medicine I know how the body works and I have no problem dealing with each body system separate, it makes things not so over whelming.

At least that's how I view things.
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Old 09-29-2007, 09:47 PM #2
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Default oops

Sorry, new at this. I didn't see my post up so I did it again and added something. But in case it doesn't show up................


I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, (hypothyroid)
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:34 PM #3
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Happy-
No one is saying that TOS and thyroid are related as one entity. The point to all the thyroid related posts is that hypothyroid and hyperthyroid contribute to MUSCLE SPASM AND WEAKNESS.

Given the problems we all have with TOS causing muscle spasm and weakness it is important to be able to separate the dx'es and get properly treated for BOTH not just one or the other.

In Shelley's case, for instance, she was having neuropathy symptoms that felt like RSD, with all over burning and redness, she was told she had "quick" reflexes, involuntary muscle jerks, and horrible emotional problems. She was told to deal with the emotional problems and the rest of it was attributed to the TOS. By putting in countless hours going to many many doctors on her own $, she finally solved her SEPARATE thyroid problem, and her TOS is manageable now because the thyroid is not contributing to over stimulated muscles in places like the shoulder girdle where TOSser's need stability the most.

I was told that I was tired all the time because i had three kids and chronic pain. I continued to believe for a year that TOS was my only problem, I had several blood work ups including a full rheumatologist work up, we missed hypothyroid for that full year, and my primary care doc is an endocrinologist. Well, guess what, when i found out and treated my separate thyroid problem, a lot of things i thought were TOS symptoms went away...my muscles are more relaxed, and therefore my body functions better. Now when things act up, i am able to separate which symptoms go with which problem and attack them separately. Treating only TOS will not solve thyroid problems, and vice versa. pointing out to TOS sufferers that hypothyroid is a common problem and has common symptoms is an excellent way to help OTHERS get checked for thyroid problems as well, and possibly help them if there are coexisting conditions.

SO PLEASE before you come on here and say that people are so awfully wrong and making things worse than they really are....read what we are actually saying.

At least that's how I view things.
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Old 09-30-2007, 12:23 AM #4
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You explained it well Jokat!
just something we all should be aware of, that other conditions can occur right along with TOS and make us to feel worse.
If we are aware of this we just might be able to feel a bit better by making sure that the thyroid is at it's best function.
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Old 09-30-2007, 06:43 AM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannakat View Post
Happy-
No one is saying that TOS and thyroid are related as one entity.


Also, with all of the possible conditions out there - cancer, IBS, diabetes, etc. There ARE certain ones that seem to come up before, during or after our TOS diagnosis. We don't all have allergies, for instance. We don't all have spine disease or arthritis or RA. We don't all have cancers, or heart conditions. (My heart is perfect per my docs...)(Which is also not to say that TOS doesn't affects vascular systems.) But a couple of things keep coming up, and we note them. We discuss them. Thyroid, depression...these are a couple that can make TOS much worse... We LIVE this, so with all due respect, we do and will connect the dots, as many of us are extremely well-educated, enough so to read and comprehend an enormous amount of medical literature.

There ARE related body systems when discussing the autonomic nervous system and digestion, for instance, (I hope I'm saying this right), and sometimes IBS predates or postdates the TOS for the reason that the damaged nervous system is not signalling to urinate or release / digest the colon.

Hashi's I believe is waaaay too prevalent in our community to be a mere coincidence with gender and age as you assert. Thanks for the middle-aged woman jab, but I've got a little bit of sense by now, too...haha. (I was diagnosed with Hashi's at about 33, had it for years prior, and did not get or have TOS until end of age 42. Are they connected? Not directly.

But it is something we've noted that we have a LOT of, and, as already succinctly stated, any thyroid issues must be identified and fixed or they can be miscontrued as TOS symptoms or make the TOS worse.)

I can say my doseage of synthroid was "x" for about 8 years with regular maintenance testing, and when I got TOS, they had to quadruple it to get it to level properly again.

TOS is a complex disease...The nervous system, and neurological aspect of it are farther-reaching than most "ortho-hand" docs are willing to realize.

No one has EVER said TOS caused Hashi's, or vice-versa, or even has made a statement of a direct causation here that I have read.

But, being that our condition is rare, and that in my case, not a single of the 28 doctors agreed on much of anything, I sit as a scientist searching for my own treatments, therapies, health regimens and hope for a return to regular, functioning society.

Just as an aside, your Dr. Brantigan is not without his great breadth of thought on TOS and its reach...may I offer that when I saw him, he explained to me that I had TOS, but also had a debilitating immunological condition that most likely would not show up on testing nor have a name - he said there a many of these unnamed illnesses yet to be discovered. He refused surgery on me, due to the unknown aspect of his suspicions. Dr. Annest went ahead with surgery, and although I am still in horrificpain most of the time, it did help in other ways. I respect Dr. B. very much.

Lastly, I get tired of hearing that TOS is a MIDDLE AGED Womens' disease...it just isn't anymore. If you had come to my home, you would have seen several very young women there. I think that my TOS and others' was caused by overwork on the computer, and now, that can hit young women in highschool or college. That does not count those who get TOS via catastrophic accident.
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Old 09-30-2007, 02:31 PM #6
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yes, I dx'ed hashimotos this year, but had low basal body temps and extreme emotional instability (a sure sign of thyroid issues) a minimum of 5 years ago. I had racing heartbeat and other hyper thyroid symptoms from midway through my third pregnancy 2.5 years ago, If one of my two OB's had thought to have me tested, my muscles might have been in better shape when i was doing yoga and injured myself to get TOS at 33, about 1.5 years ago.

thyroid and TOS are not neccessarily only for old women. younger women started using computers more and earlier. Frankly i keep my little kids off, figuring they'll do plenty of computer work when they are in school. I worry about my teen and her bad posture, started taking her to the chiro with me for preventative maintenance and someone who is not me to reinforce the need for good posture. Also, since now i know of my own thyroid problems, we can keep a closer eye on her to catch a problem earlier than 5 at least 5 years after the fact. I think thyroid is just better dx'ed today, not really more or less prevalent.


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Old 09-30-2007, 07:59 PM #7
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Happy,

I am guessing that you must have read my post. Great!

And I sure hope that by ending your post Cob were signing your name and not inferring "close of business" meaning the topic is closed. Because that would be very narrow minded and imposing.

This is a forum which by definition means...A public meeting place for open discussion or voicing of ideas.

And thats what I was doing in my post about my thyroid condition.

I respect your opinion but its just that....your opinion and that of your TOP endo (ooooooooo impressive) at a medical college.

I was posting both my opinion and information about my personal experience which I made very clear was mine.

If you read the post you would have read....Please know that this post applies to my situation and in no way am I suggesting that anyone's situation is similar nor should they do what I did.

So if you would like to discuss the topic lets please do it in the spirit of sharing and learning and not impose your rule of thought as the only one.

And in no way was I saying that thyroid causes TOS. Because if that was the case logic would stand to reason I would be cured once my thyroid was taken out.

But I am not cured of TOS. Nope its still there and confirmed.

And if you read my post carefully I was not referring to just hypothyroidism but rather a not so common complication of Hashimotos thyroiditis that I personally had called Hashistoxicosis or Thyrotoxicosis.

Its not easy to diagnose at all because most blood tests for thryoid come back normal. Mine did all the time. BUt the key was how progressively worse I got when treated with thyroid meds.

So I was posting information about that condition which both my TOP endo and surgeon (chief of head and neck surgery at a TOP teaching UNIVERSITY - actually #1 in the west according to US news and World Report - now aren't you impressed) both agree that I had.

And this condition atleast for me (notice caveat) did make my TOS worse because it affected my muscles in the shoulder region which the literature I posted explained. And the goiter which was 3x its normal size was putting pressure on structures in my neck.

My purpose in posting was to let folks with Hashi's and TOS (because many of us have both) know that if they had Hashi's and their msucles are weak or they cant tolerate the meds that they may want to ask their docs about it given how severly it can affect your msucles.

So again the Thyroid does NOT cause TOS but in my case the goiter and the Hashistoxicosis was making my TOS worse. Two separate body systems, but in my case they existed separately and one did make the other worse.

And for me (again caveat) taking my thyroid out was my personal choice on how to treat my specific problem which was more than "just hypothyroidism".

And I can say in my case it has made a world of difference. The pain and muscle spasms are way down. THe twitching is non existant. My emotions of extremes have leveled off. The feeling of dying and dread is gone. My muscle mass and strength increase every day. The IBS is pretty much gone. The fast reflexes are slowing down. The pre diabetes is getting better and my glucose and insulin are returning to more normal levels. Heart palpitations down and I am off beta blockers. Actually I am off all meds except the occasional ultram for pain. I can sleep and think and live again.

I still have TOS and will continue to manage that but the thyroid surgery has definitely for me made it more manageable. And looking back maybe the thyroid was the worse of the two separate problems.

Maybe in the beginning of your post you should have said Shelley I am happy that you found some relief, good for you for continuing to search for a solution to your problems. Yeah that would have been nice.

So yes...I agree the thyroid does NOT cause TOS. But it sure can negatively affect it if you have a very bad one.

I will point you however to a TOP endo in Houston, Dr Rihda Arem that writes in his book The Thryoid Solution that he has seen a connection between neck injuries and thyroid problems. So I guess TOP endos can have differing opinions.

So we can agree to disagree and continue to help people with our personal experiences.

All the best Happy!

Last edited by watsonsh; 09-30-2007 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 09-30-2007, 11:00 PM #8
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Default the meaning of "cob"

Charles Otto Brantigan. See the reference. This poster is "quoting" Dr. Brantigan.

Hope this helps...
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:14 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley View Post

Maybe in the beginning of your post you should have said Shelley I am happy that you found some relief, good for you for continuing to search for a solution to your problems. Yeah that would have been nice.

So yes...I agree the thyroid does NOT cause TOS. But it sure can negatively affect it if you have a very bad one.

I will point you however to a TOP endo in Houston, Dr Rihda Arem that writes in his book The Thryoid Solution that he has seen a connection between neck injuries and thyroid problems. So I guess TOP endos can have differing opinions.

So we can agree to disagree and continue to help people with our personal experiences.

All the best Happy!

Thanks for sharing Shelley, This topic has long been a misinturpeted one. Several of us over the years have had the problems with the stangulation from a neck injury inciting the thyroid symptoms thus falring the TOS symptoms.

Same ol' same ol' from the same ol'
We either are on the train or not.....
Quote:
"So many times this comes up. There is absolutely no connection between the two. No way no how."

TOS has far too many variables to say for certain....and one doctor from another do not agree, how can we?

I am so very happy you have found relief.
It was really miserable there for you and broke my heart that you could not find relief. Although it meant another surgery. It seems worth it for you.

It also encourages me to follow up with my situation also..
Oh, and the delayed mamagram, and the almost three year put off of the you know what test, you know where!

Keep gettng better...
Dianne

PS TOS is affecting my eyesight too!
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:41 PM #10
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Shocked Sometimes a difference of opinion is just that

I am very wary of new posters who appear out of nowhere, with no explanation, no introduction, and who just post a BIG conclusion disagreeing with a supposed conclusion by the Board - which in fact we all agree to disagree. Everyone here gets that, and we have a good time with it...we (I) enjoy hearing all of the different opinions, but usually recognize the posters as valid, active members of this community.

My concern is that "Happy" has no prior or subsequent post than this one...so I do not get personally in an uproar over it, and hope no one here does either. Like Di said, this is a recurring theme.




I wish everyone a great day, including HappyHappyHappy, especially since I have been SadSadSad since 2002 when I came down with TOS from my computer!

Last edited by Chemar; 10-01-2007 at 02:34 PM. Reason: small admin edit needed as per guidelines
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