NeuroTalk Support Groups - Decision needs to be made

NeuroTalk Support Groups (https://www.neurotalk.org/)

- Thoracic Outlet Syndrome (https://www.neurotalk.org/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/)

- - Decision needs to be made (https://www.neurotalk.org/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/36957-decision.html)

I definitely agree on the baby steps, patience and listening to what you body is telling you..

Muscle tensing is a gentle form of strengthening where no weight is pulled or lifted. I use that often.

First, to Humorme, I am so glad that you have joined our group because you truly challenge me intellectually and visually and so I like that burst of challenge! Thank you! Now for the substance, let's rumble!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by humorme (Post 205442)

If I had not strengthened my back muscles, I'd be worse off. It was KEY to my recovery and/or progress and/or reduction of flare ups and pain. Ok, yeah, that's true for everyone. You need to strengthen the back and the stomach muscles for good muscular / skeltal health.

The above said, I have always maintained that one listen to one's own body for indications of what is or is not appropriate. This statement "depends" upon whether you've already had some surgeries, hernia, stitches, etc. and you KNOW without a doubt, what you can and can't do there, so don't do it! Stick up for yourself and say no! If one doesn't at least TRY, one will never know. FALSE FALSE FASLE And sometimes trying requires a LOT of effort (time/patience). /;This is too vague of a comment to matter As I said in another post...I did not see/feel improvement for at least 6-9 months. I had to trust the process and what was told and my own education about the body's mechanics. It makes perfect sense that merely standing straight is not sufficient IF the shoulders are rounded forward and held there by tight pec minors. It makes perfect sense if the opposing back (rhomboids/mid-traps) muscles are disinclined to hold the shoulders back because they are weakened by the short pec minors. The body becomes used to this position and in time compresses everything in the vicinity. Open the area up...reverse the compression...pull the shoulders back and KEEP them held back and voila...less/no compression!

I agree, not everyone may be able to tolerate the work necessary...but to not even try IMHO is a set up for disaster. The simple act of lying on a foam roller as suggested earlier should be helpful...if that can't be tolerated, one can lie on the floor and try to let the shoulder drape back...work up to a rolled up towel and progress from there. Progression is key. I did it with towel, then roller then roller with weights and then they gym with cable rows and the like which strengthened the back muscles while lying on the roller stretched the pec minors to allow them to lengthen so that the stronger back could then hold them in the corrected (held back) position.

This does not apply to everyone but it applies to many and I will not give up repeating this very important thing. There were MANY days I thought this was all pointless. There were MANY days I had the 2 steps back and couldn't see the 1 step forward. The progression sped up in the past 6 months because one has to just PERSEVERE. To give up was NOT an option for me.

Please do NOT discourage people from trying. I do NOT believe that the doctors are NOT recommending efforts like the above at least to TRY to see if they can be tolerated. Baby steps. I know my doctor promised nothing but did say it would take a LOT of dedication and hard work. Same with the PT. Both said many have given up and they both were disillusioned by their lack of persistence. Both are pleased with my sticktoitness and have used it with others to encourage them to keep at it. The PT has even named a maneuver after me because of something I found that helped me that she agreed would help others "get it."

There is nothing wrong with patting oneself on one's back for a job well done!

But I really thing that whatever is hurting, we need to take a close look at the repetitive movement that is involved and consider if the person has something wrong with their own body, or something wrong with the equipment that they are using, or something wrong with the expectations of the country in expecting people to do this movement so often and with such intesity that the body is not made to do that and perhaps to change the job such that the person has either more rest times in between (to allow the same work to go on, like a pianist), or, as in produce packaging, to change up the various jobs and share them around so that no one person is doing the same thing, all day and night long. Encouraging good health, good PT, good accident prevention and helping workers to get back to work, whether as a cabbage picker or a world class pianist is the same. To care about the human being and to do what is right for that human. To treat each "worker" as if the "worker" were your very own child.

"One minute the body may tolerate very well something like the foam roller and another minute it may not."

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE BUT IN MY CASE MY BODY IS CONSISTENT IN WHAT IT TOLERATES ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS. WHAT HURTS TODAY TO DO HURT YESTERDAY AND THE DAY BEFORE AND SO ON.

"And sometimes trying requires a LOT of effort (time/patience)."

ONCE AGAIN I'M JUST SPEAKING FOR MYSELF BUT IT ISN'T ABOUT TIME & PATIENCE, THE ISSUE IS PAIN.

" But I do NOT like reading posts that say "don't do X" As you all say...EACH of us is different....Neither of us KNOW the person posting and THEIR particular and unique situation"

TRUE, BUT I THINK A LOT OF US HAVE BEEN THROUGH SIMILAR ATTEMPTS AT THERAPIES WITH BAD RESULTS FROM THE SAME EXERCISES. WE ALL NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND ARE AT DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE DISEASE PROCESS AND HAVE DIFFERENT LIMITS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, WE SHOULDN'T JUST RUSH OUT AND TRY EVERYTHING THAT SOMEONE HAS CLAIMED WORKED FOR THEM. WE DEFINITELY DON'T WANT ANYONE HURTING THEMSELVES ANYMORE THAN THEY ALREADY ARE!!!

"The body becomes used to this position and in time compresses everything in the vicinity. Open the area up...reverse the compression...pull the shoulders back and KEEP them held back and voila...less/no compression!"

AFTER READING WLADISLAW ELLIS MD'S ARTICLE ON TOS, IT APPEARS TO BE A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN JUST OPENING UP THE AREA OF COMPRESSION. I SUGGEST READING IT, IT HAS SOME EXCELLENT INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT.

"The PT has even named a maneuver after me because of something I found that helped me that she agreed would help others "get it."

WHAT IS THIS MANUEVER???

In general, although we may suggest or recommend home treatments, meds, types of therapy, courses of treatment and the like, other than the ice paks and epsom salts bath type of remedies posters are reminded to check with their Dr's or PT's about what is best in THEIR individual situation.

Many TOSer's can turn their condition around if caught EARLY enough - that is the key! And that time frame probably differs from person to person, depending on type, cause and severity of TOS, and certainly the length of time it takes from onset to dx and treatment. Inappropriate PT can and often does make TOS worse, and what is appropriate for one may be disastrous for another. It is VERY important to find a trained Dr, PT, chiropractor, massage therapist or other medical professional who is knowlegeable about TOS and has experience with it.

It's good to hear you are having success with re-training your posture. Your methods sound much like the Edgelow technique - is this what your PT is using? Many have had good results using his technique, although it does take patience and effort, you are right!

Why not simply share your story about the progress you've made since starting this approach? There's no need to make others feel as if they haven't tried hard enough - that's up to the individual to decide, and most here have been through the gamut of therapies and treatments, believe me. And many TOSer's (myself included) will have serious difficulty ever rebuilding muscle strength, due to hypermobility - lax tendons and ligaments, plus sick or damaged nerves don't make for a good prognosis.

People tend to get their backs up when told what they should do, or should have done - but if you share what WORKED for you, you're bound to have more willing listeners - and at least a few interested in finding out more.

Just my thoughts. Peace,
beth :)

humorme,
I was wondering what the maneuver is too.
Can you describe it?

oh come on - now your just teasing us by not describing it:p!
did PT pull your arms down & back behind you and stretch/hold them?

Did you ever have top rib mobilization or Nimmo ?{kind of mix of TRP & slow deep pressure massage}
When I was all locked up with upper body spasms, my chiro did those for me, it was amazing how such simple things could make such a difference. At that time he worked on the pec major, scalenes, SCM.
A week later he got the INF Stim and it really helped with the lingering tightness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo55 (Post 206083)

oh come on - now your just teasing us by not describing it:p!

Take a hackie sack. Put it under your upper spine about T1-T4. Lie on your back legs bent feet on floor. Squish the hackie sack without lifting your butt off the floor. Voila. If it works for you...great. Want me to explain WHAT it does? I can't....well, not really. Want me to explain WHEN one is ready for this? I can't. I'm not a PT. I was merely told that it helped me. I could sort of see this FOR ME. I was told it was helping others. Until I came up with the hackie sack part, the PT was having difficulty communicating what she wanted her patients to DO and HOW to get the task accomplished. Sometimes were are told in PT to perform a movement and we don't understand or see WHY. Trust process sometimes. I doubt the explanation of the maneuver helped anyone but if it did...great. It is way out of context.

Hmm, I'm thinking must be some sort of semi isometric motion of "squishing" the hackie sack that works some certain rib or lower traps/lats muscles.
I'll have to look at one of our anatomy charts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo55 (Post 206092)

Hmm, I'm thinking must be some sort of semi isometric motion of "squishing" the hackie sack that works some certain rib or lower traps/lats muscles.
I'll have to look at one of our anatomy charts.

Bottom line...it's out of context. For someone who might not be anatomically "ready" for the maneuver, it may and probably is premature. Again, I'm not a PT and do not know WHEN a person might be "ready" for this particular maneuver hence my reluctance to outline it here.

By all means people should get familiar with their body to see what it may need. Hence...listen to your body. Get out a "Henry" and push him around and see what might help you.

I glanced at the one article recommended. Every article I've read has similar concepts...the main..."decompression" whether through PT, or surgery. Opening up the TO is, IMHO, a decompression...at least strengthening my back allowed my nerves to be decompressed such that I'm not in the pain I was once it. Do I still have flare ups? Yeah...but not as frequently and not as intense and usually when I do I know why. I also know I must keep up the work for the rest of my life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo55 (Post 206083)

Did you ever have top rib mobilization or Nimmo ?{kind of mix of TRP & slow deep pressure massage}
When I was all locked up with upper body spasms, my chiro did those for me, it was amazing how such simple things could make such a difference. At that time he worked on the pec major, scalenes, SCM.
A week later he got the INF Stim and it really helped with the lingering tightness.

Like many, I've been pushed, proded, probed, electrified, manipulated, ajusted, poked, crunched etc., etc. I've been seen by massage therapists, deep tissue specialists, acupuncturists, herbalists, chiros, osteo doctors, and my neurologist. I've read more than I care to but in the process been fascinated by what the body can do. I've done Yoga, weight training, resistence, and other forms of exercise and gotten benefits from each...I've also learned what NOT to do with each. Everything taught me something to help me find a remedy. The manuever came about because of my "efforts" at experimentation and my knowledge from ALL the experiences and PT.