a lot of us have swelling around and above the collar bone as part of our TOS. I've always assumed or been told that it's due to the swamp effect of the rib and collar bone compressing nerves, vessels, etc.

I just had a PT tell me that TOS could cause lymphedema, a backing up of the lymph system, from that compression. Has anyone ever found that they have issues with their lymph system? I tried to look this up and didn't find anything about it in TOS literature. Hmmm.

I get a lot of fluid build up in the area but you can't see it. I know this because when I go to the massage therapist I get congested nasally when she works on my shoulder area.

I think a lot of us see this in our huge fingers or arms that swell it is not just pooling blood but also pooling of lymph fluid.

Hope this helps
take care
love and hugs,
Victoria

Ditto to the nasal congestion during massage....i also get head pain to the front of my head, like a pressure headache.

hadnt occured to me that it could be down to the lymph system ....

Thank you for sharing this Fern! When I go to the doc next month I am going to specifically ask him if I might have that and if he recommends a lymphatic massage. I wonder how one can tell if one has has it.....

I know when I hold books to read for any length of time { even w/pillow to support the book} I tend to get extra swelling /puffiness/tenderness in my armpits -I think it might be some pec minor or lymph combo...

I do the lymphatic massage on myself when it happens and also extra pec minor stretches to reverse it - usually a couple days of that and those sx fade away.

i think there is a description or link in the stickys.

Or - videos - http://video.google.com/videosearch?...20&hl=en&emb=0

hi guys,
found this site thought I'd share it with ya'll!
It is very straightforward and easy to understand.
http://www.lymphnotes.com/article.php/id/53/
light massage is all that is needed!!
http://www.cancerbackup.org.uk/Resou...phaticdrainage
that one is for cancer as tumors also block lymph flow....as you can imagine.
It is still relevant to us.


hope this helps guys

love and hugs,
Victoria

Your lymphatic system drains right through the thoracic outlet (thus it's called an "outlet"). So, all that junk from your head that should be heading down into your body to escape, gets trapped at the outlet because of your compression. I know ALL about this. This seems to be my latest *big problem.* I keep getting sick, and NOTHING drains, so I stay sick. And then all that junk that sticks around creates just enough of a swelling in the area to not be noticeable visually, but to put enough pressure on the area to flare up the TOS even more, which then causes more blockage at the Outlet. It's really a downward spiral.

If you ever get sick, start taking antibiotics, and find out two hours later that your head wants to explode -- your outlet is probably blocked. All the junk breaks up and has nowhere to go. Even better, when you get that horrific, unbearable neck pain that makes you think TOS is going to kill you -- you know the type, where you can't even touch your neck with half an ounce of pressure... Yah... The outlet is probably stuck. OR if you get stabbing pain right to the side of either armpit -- outlet is blocked.

There are things that work, though. I'd advise making sure you find someone REALLY knowledgeable on lymphatic drainage to perform it for you. Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone without a medical degree unless they come highly recommended. Even then, do your homework. Luckily for us, there are medical doctors called Osteopaths (D.O.) who are usually trained in this procedure. Many of them are knowledgeable about TOS and opening up the thoracic outlet.

I literally had this done last Thursday. I have another appointment Wednesday to have it done again. If it's "really bad" it usually takes a few treatments.

Just a warning, though, it's a terribly painful procedure. Really, it's something to be ready for. Especially if you're really blocked. They basically lay you down on your back, they raise your arm straight up in the air, and they press really hard on the outlet while moving your arm around. As they press, they push the junk down. It's really NOT a good feeling. You'll get that sense of impending doom. Your arm will hurt really bad, your underarm will hurt really bad, and the outlet - forget about it. I usually can't even breathe when this is done to me. My doc keeps saying as calmly as he can, "breathe slowly..."

BUT - NEVER FEAR! My experience has been that almost immediately after they release your arm back to you, the pain goes away. And if they do enough of it, you'll feel like a SUPERHERO the next day.

DRINK LOTS OF WATER! TAKE LOTS OF GUAIFENESIN! Water & Guai will break that stuff up really well and make it easier to pass! The more liquidy you can get the junk, the better.

I don't know about you, but NOBODY presses on my thoracic outlet. Thus, you need to find someone who you REALLY trust.

My family doctor is a really good D.O. He teaches at big universities, and he's really well-known in the medical world. He's one of the very few osteopath family physicians who practices OMT (Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy) on a regular basis with his patients. If you can find someone like him, you'll be in really good hands.

Hope that helps,
J

Hi,
I just read the post about having a DO do your lymph massage. My MT assures me that you can do this for yourself. I have it also on good authority my partner who is a radiation oncologist that yes you can do lymph massage and a family member can do it on a cancer patient who has breast cancer and has lymph back up. It is only need to have very very light pressure. If it hurts then there may be something wrong. If anyone ever tried to put my arm up high in the air I'd scream as it would be hellishly painful due to my TOS. I don't know how anybody with TOS could stand the above procedure.
the only case I can think of is if you have total lymph blockage, but by then you may not be able to move your arm up due to the swelling, like my breast cancer patients. You could not move their arms as the tumor was blocking the lymph flow, but you could do a very light massage to help to relieve this type of pain although it won't stop the blockage it stops some of the pain.

I am only speaking from my own experience as a nurse and as information my MT has given me as well as my DH. I hope I have not offended only offering a different side to this story.

pls refer to this article with this quote
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/health/05cons.html
"Even after diagnosis, it may be hard to get access to good treatment. The preferred therapy for lymphedema, called complete decongestive therapy, involves a time- and labor-intensive gentle massage technique to stimulate new pathways for the lymphatic fluid. Many insurance policies cover the therapy, which can cost thousands of dollars.
It is performed by certified lymphedema therapists, who have completed at least 135 hours of training. The National Lymphedema Network’s Web site, www.lymphnet.org, has a directory of certified therapists that can be perused by state or region."


http://www.aumbodyworks.com/ldt.htm this site states the following
OK, I'm sold on why it's good. How is it done? Is it painful?
"1. Lymphatic Drainage is a hands-on technique designed to attain and sustain proper functioning of the human fluid system.
2. Lymph Drainage Therapy is an original hands-on method of lymphatic drainage developed by Bruno Chikly, MD, DO (hon.). Created out of his research on the lymphatic system, LDT takes traditional lymph drainage techniques and adds a new level of precision in keeping with the latest scientific discoveries and exact anatomical science.
3. The therapist utilizes gentle manual maneuvers to aid in the recirculation of body fluids. While the exact amount of pressure applied depends on the area and pathology involved, it averages an extremely light five grams, or the equivalent weight of a nickel. With that pressure, it is not painful at all.
4. Using this technique, trained therapists are able to detect the specific rhythm, direction, depth and quality of the lymph flow anywhere in the body. From there they can use their hands to perform Manual Lymphatic Mapping of the vessels to assess the overall direction of lymphatic circulation, areas of stagnation, and the best alternate pathways for draining lymph and other body fluids."

love and hugs,
Victoria

I'm thinking maybe Jennys DO is doing some specific tissue release along with lymph tx.

From what I've read and seen videos of - in general lymph massage is a very light brushing of the skin towards the heart/core.

Hi all. I realize time has passed but I want to report back. I've been doing the lymph drainage therapy weekly for about 3 mos now. I feel somewhat less symptomatic but have also been staying off of the computer and handwriting as little as possible. My therapist does a combination of lymph drainage and cranial-sacral therapy. It's not painful as Jenny described but there are times when it hurts for a moment as she breaks up a fascial train (I think this is the term). Other than that, she moves my head and neck and arms around and does the more subtle lymph drainage. Not as light as brushing the skin as Jo describes--but it is a light touch. I haven't had swelling of the arm or bruising into the hand (from when the vein backs up) for awhile. However I haven't been able to exercise to the extent that those symptoms might be problematic but I am optomistic that this combination of therapies is at least leaving me somewhat more able bodied. My flares are usually not as long lasting nor as bad but I did get a mighty one from the treatment last week. What is very interesting is how she can work on my head or neck and I will feel such a strong pulling into my elbows and even into the hands. It's an interesting realization of how connected these body parts are.

I'm looking forward to investigating the sites you've listed so that I can continue on with some self-help therapy myself. The one thing I did learn is to place the fingertips above the collar bones and press lightly into the swollen skin; hold for a count of 5 or so; remove them for the same count and repeat as necessary. It helps to get the lymph system flowing where it pools there.

BTW-I dd have a recommendation to try to wear a sleeve around my arm to keep the swelling from occuring during walking or exercise. It could be designed either for lymphedema or for athletes to warm their extremities pre-game. These can be found at places like Sportmart. The off-the-shelf ones are less expensive solutions. Both compress the arm while exercising or any time one wants to attempt to keep the swelling from appearing. The lympedema ones can be ordered online but you need to be measured. If anyone is interested I could try to get more details.

Here's an example of one but I think for me it should be the hand that should be compressed as a vascular surgeon rec.
http://www.jumpusa.com/nba_shooting_...FRhhnAodOzVr9w

be well!