I have seen the term sub-concussive thrown around quite often when browsing the forum and researching online. I can't really find any statistics regarding what amount of g forces is actually considered a sub-concussive impact.

For example:

Today I was sitting next to my buddy on a couch, and he gave me a hard shove, my whole body shifted quickly. Is this considered a sub-concussive impact?

What about heading a soccer ball?


Just curious - thanks for any responses.

If you use sub-concussive as the search word in our forum search tool it will bring up past postings & threads. It has been talked about often.
http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/search.php

Heading a soccer ball would often be considered a sub-concussive impact but getting a shoulder shove would not.

BUT, sub-concussive impacts are not a cause of injury individually. It takes hundreds in a short period of time for the cumulative effect to make a difference. The common sub-concussive issue is a football player sustaining 800 or more in a 3 or 4 month season. This is often smacking helmets at the line of scrimmage or repeated hard tackles smacking the helmet on the ground. Or, a soccer player sustaining 10 to 20 headers during each practice for an entire season.

Unless you buddy smacked you in the head, that would not be any kind of head impact.

What about something like headbanging, I think that type of vicious movement would constitute as sub-concussive impacts?

I often wonder how my high level soccer playing impacted my concussion recovery (never played since concussion). I played from the age of four until around seventeen, often seven days a week. I remember after some practices where we headed a lot; I would have brutal headaches. Often when people think of concussions they think of large events, like a car accident, but not small events such as heading a soccer ball that have a cumulative effect.

I also have many friends whom were avid soccer plays who have similar issues as I do. I wonder if some changes can be made to the game of soccer to prevent this?

The daily heading drills are the worst part of soccer, worse than the occasional real concussion. Your denial of the headaches was a big mistake. Just wait. I bet there will be some huge law suits against AYSO, FILA, US Youth Soccer, etc. in the next few years. Rugby is just as dangerous.

Idaho Youth Soccer is outlawing heading below 10. Calif did already.

I'd like to see no heading under 18 in the goal area and no heading drills. The goal area is where head to head concussions happen most, especially during corner kicks. If heading was removed from the sport, ball handling would still carry the fans. I saw Pele' play in '72. His ball handling was mesmerizing.

We had a center on my high school team who was amazing. It was amazing to watch Rui and Tony walk right through the defense. We rarely had to head the ball. We won games with exquisite ball handling. More than half the team grew up kicking sheep bladders around the dirt in Portugal since they could walk. One season, we outscored the opposition 56 to 1. We shut out ever team but one during the regular season. We had refs disqual some goals out of pity for the other team.

I'd watch no header soccer.

So, you need to determine to take care of your brain with good brain nutrition, good sleep and no toxins (alcohol, minimal caffeine, etc.).

And, Don't let anybody you know do any headbanging. A few years ago, a mom on NT had a son who ended up in a full time psych facility from a night of headbanging.

My best to you.

Youth soccer no longer allows heading in kids age 10 and under, and only permits heading during practice for kids 11-13. This is as per recent US Soccer Federation guidelines.

Also remember that a concussion can occur even without a blow to the head!

As I mentioned earlier, heading practice is worse than the occasional header during a game. The frequency of heading creates a bigger risk.

US Youth Soccer is just starting to understand the issues. 14 years should be the minimum age based on brain physiology.

PlaySmart, Are you a PCS sufferer or an activist for PlaySmart ?

Please feel free to introduce yourself and tell us how we can help you.

Can you help us understand what you mean by "Also remember that a concussion can occur even without a blow to the head! " ?

PlaySmart StaySmart is a nonprofit organization that my brother and I founded over a year ago. We are 2 high school students that have as our misssion to make sure every kid that steps onto a playing field knows the signs and symptoms of concussions and the importance of reporting those symptoms so they get early treatment.

If kids report early, they get treated early and then they can get back on the field and play the sports they love. We give talks to schools and groups and we distribute videos and materials free to any school that needs them. **.

My brother suffered a concussion on the playground as a kid and my best friend had a severe one when we were playing lacrosse. Seeing him totally confused was a frightening experience I will never forget. He got treated early and by a concussion specialist and he is fine today.

To answer your question about blows to the head--- whenever the brain moves either back and forth or side to side quickly and violently there is a risk of concussion. If your head snaps back by a violent push, the neck muscles are not strong enough to keep the head stable. The brain therefore goes back and forth in the skull . That is one of the reasons why concussions are higher in girls and young kids----their neck muscles are not as strong.

I know Dr Cantu and the Boston group promote the idea "To answer your question about blows to the head--- whenever the brain moves either back and forth or side to side quickly and violently there is a risk of concussion. If your head snaps back by a violent push, the neck muscles are not strong enough to keep the head stable. The brain therefore goes back and forth in the skull . That is one of the reasons why concussions are higher in girls and young kids----their neck muscles are not as strong. "

I've read their data. It is incomplete. I have a early publication copy of Dr Cantu's book of a few years ago. I was a reviewer. I was shocked to see such a strong claim. Stronger necks protect the neck as much as they protect the brain.

But, if one looks at the pure physics of impacts, this hypothesis is weakened. It is more likely an upper neck injury that manifests with concussion like symptoms. Yes, there are still symptoms. U Buffalo research says up to 80% of concussion symptoms are neck injury related.

I'm surprised Dr Cantu, as neurosurgeon, is not seeing the evidence of upper neck injuries. They are subtle and do not show up on normal CT Scans or MRI's. It take a special skill set to recognize these subtle injuries. But, when treated, the recovery progression can change dramatically.

The neck issue may just be a multiplier that makes a minor concussion have much worse symptoms when there is a neck injury component. Anecdotal evidence suggests this is the case. Unfortunately, the research is vastly incomplete.