microman,

You are grossly misrepresenting the article you linked to. As they say, the devil is in the details. It is a study of multi-vitamin use. Multi-vitamins are dosed based on RDA levels (Recommended Daily Allowance). RDA levels are minimums to avoid malnutrition, not to increase health status. The areas of benefit they are tracking are cognitive decline in well-nourished elderly, recurrence of myocardial infarction, prevention of chronic disease, and similar normal progressions. They do not define what they label as harm other than an implied harm to the wallet.

"With respect to multivitamins, the studies published in this issue and previous trials indicate no substantial health benefit. This evidence, combined with biological considerations, suggests that any effect, either beneficial or harmful, is probably small. As we learned from voluminous trial data on vitamin E, however, clinical trials are not well-suited to identify very small effects, and future trials of multivitamins for chronic disease prevention in well-nourished populations are likely to be futile."

What they are not addressing is how the B vitamins and D-3 help the brain tolerate stress. They are also not addressing the brain compromised/injured population except those with MCI or other dementias.

They are not addressing the population who are deficient for a myriad of reasons.

They are not addressing the anxiety and depression issues that can result from over-stressed brains, especially stress sensitive injured brains, that are reduced in some or even many with proper supplementation.

These arguments have been going on for decades. The pharmaceutical industry has railed against vitamins and supplements claiming poor evidence of efficacy and allude to possible harm but they then promote use of their expensive drugs with TV ads that are mostly all the precautions and risks.

I'd much rather take supplements that my body already knows how to use than take drugs that are foreign and often toxic to my system. The high doses you try to claim are nothing like the mega-nutrition doses used safely by millions of people. There are a few vitamins and supplements that require extra caution like Vit A but 400 iu's of Vit E is well know for its safety. Even 2 grams a day of Vit C is very safe. Some take 10 grams or more to what is called bowel tolerance. Too much Vit C gives one loose stools.

The US federal government requires that iodine be added to table salt and Vit D be added to milk because those are well no deficiencies that impact public health. My brother suffered from Rickets due to Vit D deficiency before Vit D was added to milk.

You are free to choose to not use any vitamins or supplementation. Nobody is going to fault you.

But, it is another issue altogether for you to say we (myself specifically) are being irresponsible.

Regarding the issue of cancer vs vitamins....

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/feature-s...t-cause-cancer

And Dr. Amen MD has been working with brain damage and ways to heal:

http://www.amenclinics.com/latest-ne...lthy-protocol/

http://www.amenclinics.com/blog/must...ons-seriously/

He appears often on PBS pledge weeks, with his lectures. One of them concentrates on concussion injuries.

The choice to take vitamins /supplements is always up to the individual.
Same for Rx medications and mainstream vs alternative care...

Some key points as I see them, as to whether optimum nutrition can be acquired by foods alone.
*Not everyone is able to, or wants to eat "organic".
*Many people eat a lot of processed, junk foods & beverages and don't read labels or know about basic nutrition.
*Many soils now are depleted of nutrient & micro nutrients.

A compromised body often will benefit from added vitamins /supplements.

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The information posted on this site is by the members sharing, we all can choose what to take away from our reading and use it or not.

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[The material on this site is for informational purposes only, and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment
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It doesn't have to be organic, just fresh, and last time I looked basic foods like spinach, kale, broccoli, sweet potato, apples etc were readily available and not expensive - certainly cheaper than eating processed food. If people don't care about what they eat then that's their lookout, they obviously like obesity and diabetes. If any good has come out of this PCS hell it'd that I now have a lot more interest and knowledge about nutrition than I did before and it's common sense that popping a few vits isn't going to make up for living on junk food and pop. In most cases they're probably just a psychological prop.

...btw here's one of many articles I found regarding the taking of supplements.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...d-cancer-risk/

Again, the devil is in the details.

In that cancer risk study, those taking Vit E or selenium or both increased their risk of cancer by by a combined average of 1.4%.

What is not described is how they defined a prostate cancer diagnosis. Were these prostate cancers the slow growing cancers that have minimal risk to life or the fast growing cancers that can be deadly ? Most men die with prostate cancer but very few die from prostate cancer.

From the report linked:

The initial report of the Selenium and Vitamin E Cancer Prevention Trial (SELECT) found no reduction in risk of prostate cancer with either selenium or vitamin E supplements but a statistically non-significant increase in prostate cancer risk with vitamin E.

Results This report includes 54 464 additional person-years of follow-up and 521 additional cases of prostate cancer since the primary report. Compared with the placebo (referent group) in which 529 men developed prostate cancer, 620 men in the vitamin E group developed prostate cancer (hazard ratio [HR], 1.17; 99% CI, 1.004-1.36, P = .008); as did 575 in the selenium group (HR, 1.09; 99% CI, 0.93-1.27; P = .18), and 555 in the selenium plus vitamin E group (HR, 1.05; 99% CI, 0.89-1.22, P = .46). Compared with placebo, the absolute increase in risk of prostate cancer per 1000 person-years was 1.6 for vitamin E, 0.8 for selenium, and 0.4 for the combination.

mark,

I do not believe I have grossly misrepresented anything, particularly considering the title of this thread ("A few warnings and questions about supplements"). Supplements should not be used unless needed. When they are used, they may be used for long periods and it is reasonable to discuss risks linked to these.

Currently on the forum, there is a propensity by largely you (but not solely) to push the vitamin sticky regime on new and existing members. This makes me uncomfortable and I will not apologise for pointing this out as I do feel it being done irresponsibly. If your supplement works for you, that's great. It does not mean it is universally beneficial and safe for everyone, though.

To provide our community with information linking risks to chronic consumption of nutrient supplements, I felt obligated to post this so everyone can make informed decisions. Note, I am not going to get into citing one paper after another to prove a point(s), though I could if I felt better. This, however, would defeat my original intentions, which were two-fold: i. inform the NT community that blind consumption of micro/macro nutrients may not be beneficial and, more consequently, may pose long-term risks, and ii. that the blind recommendation to adhere to the vitamin sticky regimen that occurs on the NT-PCS forum should not be permitted in the manner it is.

In contrast to the second point, and in my view how this should be approached, new and existing members could be encouraged to eat a healthy diet and, if they’re diet is less-than-ideal, go to their physician and have blood tests done to screen for vitamin and hormone levels (some of our members have done this and I know this has been discussed in several threads). This would permit the synthesis of a supplementation program that is unique and relevant to that individual, rather than one deriving largely from a single person. Further, this would possibly keep costs down and reduce any unnecessary risks that are known at this time or that may be elucidated in future.

There is intense interest in supplements at this time. In line with this and some of the research high-lighted with the editorial I linked, there will be a large quantity of data produced over the next 5-10 years. My guess is that scientists will identify a number of issues linked to long-term supplement consumption; again, this is speculative on my behalf.

Lastly, I like what you said: “You are free to choose to not use any vitamins or supplementation. Nobody is going to fault you.” Fortunately and unfortunately your opinion carries a lot of well-earned weight on NT, so your suggestion to follow this regime is likely followed blindly by many, and that I don’t think is a good thing. Information begets informed choices, and I’m only bringing this to light in the hopes of wellness for everyone. If people want to use supplements, I'm not against that but do so knowing that high doses of vitamins may carry known and unknown risks.

I am going to have to intervene here.

We do not restrict information shared here to only that which is considered to be "scientific". Members are welcome to post about any treatments they choose to, just as members are free to ignore anything they disagree with. This is a patient community where all aspects of treatments, conventional and alternative, are welcome to be discussed. All views are allowed, provided they are shared respectfully and within our guidelines.


There is a disclaimer on every page that states:

For those that choose to take Vitamins & supplements, here is a brand rating site that will help you find best product/brands.
Don't waste money on products that may be low quality or mislabelled.

www.labdoor.com

Microman,

I have never said there is any reason to not eat a healthy diet. The regimen includes comments about avoiding most sugars (especially HFCS), MSG and artificial sweeteners. Non-processed foods are better than processed foods.

Blood work for vitamins and mineral levels and hormones can be helpful but few doctors even pay attention to these issues unless there is a serious lack or imbalance. The range for Vit B-12 goes from 3-400 pgms/mL to 970 pgms/mL. Many with symptoms do better at the 970 pgms/mL level.

The studies mentioned all stated that the benefits of vitamins at usual levels and the risks of vitamins at the usual levels are statistically insignificant. But, they did not study the benefit to those struggling with PCS, PCS related anxiety or PCS related depression. They agree that more research needs to be done to see if there is a statistically relevant correlation.

I have continued to state that the injured brain needs more nutritional support. Many concussion experts include nutritional support beyond healthy diets in their protocols.

Should I not recommend the Vitamins sticky because there is a researched non-statistically relevant risk when many say they have had substantial benefit ?

I ignore when people say, You must eat organic. It's a choice people can make.

Organic increases food costs by 50 to 100% and more. I buy a few items in the organic isle and cringe at the premium for organic. There are plenty of studies that say eating organic is a waste of money except for a few foods that can be washed better or avoided without weakening a diet.

Some have tried the vitamin regimen and decided it was not something they were going to continue. Others have found great value. Some have never tried it at all.

I just learned an additional value to anti-oxidants. One of the problems with injured nerve/brain tissue is an increase in free radicals and the damage they do. Anti-oxidants help to reduce free radicals. An anti-oxidant rich diet can get expensive, especially during the non-growing seasons.

I'll try to remember to say, 'For many, they are not getting enough nutrients for their injured brain so supplementing with vitamins and minerals can be helpful. Or, Many find the Vitamin regimen to be helpful. I do not demand or expect everyone to follow my comments.

Many push mindfulness and other meditation activities and alternative therapies and practices that I disagree with. I personally even consider some to be harmful.

But, people make their own choices.

I hope you will allow those choices to continue without conflict.

I encourage you to post a diet that increases anti-oxidant levels, provides good minerals, good B vitamins (especially B-12) and is affordable and within the food preparation skills and time limits of the average person.

I agree it is up to the individual to decide what they eat or swallow but taking vitamin supplements is no replacement for a crappy diet, I think that's obvious.