Traumatic Brain Injury and Post Concussion Syndrome For traumatic brain injury (TBI) and post concussion syndrome (PCS).


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Old 10-29-2017, 04:43 PM #1
StayPositiveNStrong StayPositiveNStrong is offline
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Originally Posted by Danielson View Post
15 months is a long time, are you sure that the cause was the car accident and not something else, like a bad hit in kickboxing sparring? (by the way, I also trained MMA and have done a couple of sparring, coupled with partyng and driking, the month after the accident when I still believed that my symptoms were a stress-related psychomatic disorder, so I can emphatize a lot with you, altough my symptoms came right away a day and half after the accident).

Also, did you have not cognitive deficit such as trouble thinking, trouble reading, trouble putting your feelings in actual toughts and sentences and/or memory problems?
As I've never had health issues or surgeries before, the car accident is the only physical event that occurred during that time frame I can use to correlate with my symptoms which are typical for PCS. The only cognitive deficiency I had in the beginning was staying focused. My brain couldn't handle the work load of viewing a computer monitor for more than 1-2 hours without long breaks in between. The psychological issues still linger -fear of my condition getting worse and trying to find the root cause of my dizziness. It is possible that I might've developed something else before my car accident or it could be that my my neck injury was slowly taking a toll on blood flow to my brain in combination with liquor and over-stimulation. All the exams I've been taken (MRI with contrast, CT scan, SPECT scan, VNG, VEMP, BPPV, Heart stress test, EKG, blood work) the results for each have always come back negative for any problems. The last exam I'm going to request is called a "Carotid & Vertebral Dopper Exam" which will determine if there's any issues with blood flow to the brain.
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Old 10-29-2017, 06:15 PM #2
Mark in Idaho Mark in Idaho is offline
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SPNS,

Are you saying that since you never had problems from your kickboxing before the T Bone accident that you don't think kickboxing would be the cause of your symptoms that manifest 15 months after the car wreck? Did you have any other symptoms after the car wreck other than the short lived mental confusion/freeze (that was not physiological shock)?

The mental confusion can just be a moment of startle where you brain has had so much stimulation that it has to stop or freeze to sort it out. It is one part of the fight, flight, or freeze response to trauma and startle. Yes, it can be a concussion, too.

Concussion is a process that happens over a few days to a few weeks. PCS from a concussion does not develop 15 months later unless there has been additional trauma at the 15 month mark.

PCS is when concussion symptoms that first manifested at or closely after the head trauma continue beyond the 6 week to 3 month time frame. Even delayed onset concussion symptoms manifest within a few weeks, usually because of high stress living.
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:12 PM #3
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SPNS,

Are you saying that since you never had problems from your kickboxing before the T Bone accident that you don't think kickboxing would be the cause of your symptoms that manifest 15 months after the car wreck? Did you have any other symptoms after the car wreck other than the short lived mental confusion/freeze (that was not physiological shock)?

The mental confusion can just be a moment of startle where you brain has had so much stimulation that it has to stop or freeze to sort it out. It is one part of the fight, flight, or freeze response to trauma and startle. Yes, it can be a concussion, too.

Concussion is a process that happens over a few days to a few weeks. PCS from a concussion does not develop 15 months later unless there has been additional trauma at the 15 month mark.

PCS is when concussion symptoms that first manifested at or closely after the head trauma continue beyond the 6 week to 3 month time frame. Even delayed onset concussion symptoms manifest within a few weeks, usually because of high stress living.
Hi Mark. I did not have any other symptoms right after the car wreck. It was only until the 15th month mark that I had my first vertigo attack (possibly a mini TIA that lasted a few seconds) and developed the typical PCS symptoms. I would like to clarify that the kick-boxing was aerobic, I did not spar with other people or take hits to the head. Now wether or not it's PCS that caused the PCS symptoms, I have not been told that by any specialist I've seen. That is a conclusion I've come up with after researching PCS symptoms. I strongly believe something either affected the blood flow due to the neck whiplash, there's something else the doctors missed or it's become a psychological issue and there's nothing physically wrong with me as the previous exams/tests show.
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:18 PM #4
Mark in Idaho Mark in Idaho is offline
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So, you developed symptoms and researched and chose the accident as the cause and PCS as the diagnosis. I don't think there is any evidence to link your symptoms to the accident.

The typical PCS symptoms can also be caused by many other issues.

My observation is you had a TIA or something similar and were struck hard with a 'What the ..... happened?" anxiety. With this anxiety, you became super sensitive to any sense of dizziness. Now, you maintain this super sensitivity to any dizziness.

I deal with 2 kinds of dizziness. The blood pressure kind that resolves when I give my BP a chance to catch up after getting up from a chair. The other dizziness manifests when I am overstimulated. I can usually overcome it by stopping to focus and catch my bearings. I can also get a sense of dizziness from thinking about dizziness. If I stop what I am doing to check to see if I am dizzy, I will notice some sensation of dizziness. If I ignore it, it goes away.

A similar situation happens with headaches. When somebody on NT complains about head aches, as I write a post, I will notice a head ache.

This is a known phenomenon sometimes called a memorized response. Thinking about a past condition can cause the symptoms of that condition to manifest. Therapy (CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) can help to break the memorized response.

A large part of balance is dependent on visual perception. Any visual problems can cause a sense of dizziness.

The tests you have already had likely cover any issues the Doppler will find other than imaging plaque that has formed in your arteries.
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Old 10-30-2017, 07:43 AM #5
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Originally Posted by Mark in Idaho View Post
So, you developed symptoms and researched and chose the accident as the cause and PCS as the diagnosis. I don't think there is any evidence to link your symptoms to the accident.

The typical PCS symptoms can also be caused by many other issues.

My observation is you had a TIA or something similar and were struck hard with a 'What the ..... happened?" anxiety. With this anxiety, you became super sensitive to any sense of dizziness. Now, you maintain this super sensitivity to any dizziness.

I deal with 2 kinds of dizziness. The blood pressure kind that resolves when I give my BP a chance to catch up after getting up from a chair. The other dizziness manifests when I am overstimulated. I can usually overcome it by stopping to focus and catch my bearings. I can also get a sense of dizziness from thinking about dizziness. If I stop what I am doing to check to see if I am dizzy, I will notice some sensation of dizziness. If I ignore it, it goes away.

A similar situation happens with headaches. When somebody on NT complains about head aches, as I write a post, I will notice a head ache.

This is a known phenomenon sometimes called a memorized response. Thinking about a past condition can cause the symptoms of that condition to manifest. Therapy (CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) can help to break the memorized response.

A large part of balance is dependent on visual perception. Any visual problems can cause a sense of dizziness.

The tests you have already had likely cover any issues the Doppler will find other than imaging plaque that has formed in your arteries.
Mark, your conclusion is that anxiety is creating the sense of dizziness after I had a TIA and that I should seek cognitive therapy? Can we fully rule out PCS as the cause of the dizziness 15 months after my car accident? If this is truly now a cognitive issue would physical or vestibular therapy still be useful? From my research TIA symptoms only last minutes to hours so it couldn't be the TIA causing the dizziness. I do wear glasses when working on the computer but I've never experienced double vision or any other eye problems. I believe you might be right, when I was taking an SSRI my dizziness became less apparent and when I took a valium to treat my anxiety the dizziness was completely gone until the effects wore off. If someone truly had PCS would taking an SSRI or Valium eliminate the headaches, dizziness and other symptoms that accompany a PCS?
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:23 AM #6
Mark in Idaho Mark in Idaho is offline
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Anxiety is causing you to be super sensitive to any sense of dizziness and magnifying it. This process is similar to PTSD flashbacks.

Can we rule out PCS? I say yes, A 99% chance it has nothing to do with PCS. Even if it did, it would not change anything.

Vestibular therapy could cause a placebo effect or it could just show that your dizziness is within the range of normal.

SSRIs and benzos (valium) do nothing to reduce the dizziness, head aches, etc. of PCS from a curative perspective. They do help the mind stop focusing on symptoms and making those symptoms worse due to that focus.

Many with PCS have achieved great improvement with SSRIs because it allows them to forget these memorized symptoms and start a return to normal thoughts and life. It helps to break the cycle so one can move forward.

The acute symptoms of a TIA only last minutes to hours but some subtle symptoms can remain for longer periods. It took my wife a few weeks to get free of the leaning to the left feeling. And, it only takes minutes to hours for the anxious brain to memorize and become sensitive to a symptom.

Don't discount vision issues. Double vision is not the only manifestation of vision that causes problems. A behavioral optometrist can do a thorough assessment. https://nora.cc/healthcare-locator.html Nystagmus, convergence insufficiency and other issues can change the way the brain combines vision with balance. But, it sounds like you have already had a lot of testing in that area.

If you were to just accept your dizziness as a minor inconvenience and your new normal and move on, I bet in a few months, you will not be noticing any dizziness like you do today.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:47 AM #7
StayPositiveNStrong StayPositiveNStrong is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Idaho View Post
Anxiety is causing you to be super sensitive to any sense of dizziness and magnifying it. This process is similar to PTSD flashbacks.

Can we rule out PCS? I say yes, A 99% chance it has nothing to do with PCS. Even if it did, it would not change anything.

Vestibular therapy could cause a placebo effect or it could just show that your dizziness is within the range of normal.

SSRIs and benzos (valium) do nothing to reduce the dizziness, head aches, etc. of PCS from a curative perspective. They do help the mind stop focusing on symptoms and making those symptoms worse due to that focus.

Many with PCS have achieved great improvement with SSRIs because it allows them to forget these memorized symptoms and start a return to normal thoughts and life. It helps to break the cycle so one can move forward. Thank you again for the invaluable knowledge you have provided. I now have enough information to pursue the next course of action. I wish you and your wife the best Mark.

The acute symptoms of a TIA only last minutes to hours but some subtle symptoms can remain for longer periods. It took my wife a few weeks to get free of the leaning to the left feeling. And, it only takes minutes to hours for the anxious brain to memorize and become sensitive to a symptom.

Don't discount vision issues. Double vision is not the only manifestation of vision that causes problems. A behavioral optometrist can do a thorough assessment. https://nora.cc/healthcare-locator.html Nystagmus, convergence insufficiency and other issues can change the way the brain combines vision with balance. But, it sounds like you have already had a lot of testing in that area.

If you were to just accept your dizziness as a minor inconvenience and your new normal and move on, I bet in a few months, you will not be noticing any dizziness like you do today.
Thank you for your input Mark. I will find a behavioral optometrist as well -this is not something I have looked into yet. You are right, the SSRI's did help with not focusing on the dizziness. It didn't resolve the dizziness 100% but it got me close enough to feeling normal again.
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