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mTBI in bed seems unlikely, or does it?

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Old 02-05-2018, 09:30 PM   #1
Evol
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Default mTBI in bed seems unlikely, or does it?

Dear all,

For almost a year I have been having severe migraines and concentration issues for longer periods of time after even slight bumps to the head, although I do not recall any serious injury definitely. For the axiety I have been seeing a psychologist who helped me to regulate my perception on my body, for the better hopefully.

The last two weeks however I have been feeling a lot of symptoms (some of which never before), but struggle to accept a link to a particular cause, because it seems so insignificant. This leaves me confused and now my anxiety is returning slowly.

On Monday the 24 in half sleep, I forced or let my head fall onto the pillow from a short distance and it was stopped a pile of clothes stacked underneath. Immediately after the impact I felt nausea and in shock and disbelief, I returned to sleep.

The next week I had pressure on the spot of the hit and my balance seemed to be shifted slightly forwards. Fortunately I am in between two jobs at the moment, so I could rest the week and see my symptoms completely resolve until the next Monday.

In the early morning of the next Tuesday, also in half sleep my head fell from a small distance onto the matrass or the pillow and I only felt a slight hit. I felt a short offset of nausea, but started fine into the day. The next days I felt increasingly exhausted and overwhelmed and resided from activities by thuesday. Then I began to feel a slight nausea from time to time, in particular triggered by smartphone usage. I also felt mentally slowed down and I felt off, which I interpreted as a slight spacial disorientation. However, the particular symptoms of the week before did not reappear.

As for now I feel better and the feeling off is thank God gone, but I still feel mentally slowed down.

I am afraid I might have sustained a concussion. If I had fallen onto a hard surface and had I not had had psychosomatic symptoms in the past, I would not have so much doubt. But as it is, I wonder how much I might have imagined or could come from an infect, which I feel from time to time. Also I had slight spacial disorientation from at most subconcussive hits, but not so presistent.

I am sorry that I bother you with my story, but I know that amongst whatever symptoms remain, my judgement and attitude towards this will play a major part. And I feel that you of all people have the best understanding of this kind of situation and the clearest view.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:45 AM   #2
Mark in Idaho
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Evol,

Welcome to NeuroTalk.

You did not suffer a concussion hitting a pillow or pile of clothes with your head. Not even a sub-concussive impact.

Your head suffers far greater impact from just walking. Steps and stairs cause even more impact without danger. Coughing, sneezing, turning your head to the side, and more normal movements have more forces.

I'm confused. You said "I wonder how much I might have imagined or could come from an infect, which I feel from time to time. Also I had slight spacial disorientation from at most subconcussive hits, but not so presistent." " triggered by smartphone usage"

Can you explain what you mean?
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Idaho View Post
Evol,

Welcome to NeuroTalk.

You did not suffer a concussion hitting a pillow or pile of clothes with your head. Not even a sub-concussive impact.

Your head suffers far greater impact from just walking. Steps and stairs cause even more impact without danger. Coughing, sneezing, turning your head to the side, and more normal movements have more forces.

I'm confused. You said "I wonder how much I might have imagined or could come from an infect, which I feel from time to time. Also I had slight spacial disorientation from at most subconcussive hits, but not so presistent." " triggered by smartphone usage"

Can you explain what you mean?





I saw a doctor because I suspected some of the symptoms could come from an infect, which caused me slight fever only on saturday. She confirmed I had a raised temperature, but it never felt that the nausea could be completely attributed to that. Slight nausea was correlated with smartphone usage and "it felt like coming from the head" rather than from the stomach or as a sign of weakness of the body. (I know doctors can hardly diagnose concussion, even if they are aware).


Once I slammed my lower jaw into my upper jaw while awakening. This caused me to feel weird when going for a walk the next days and headaches. I found it quite absurd and fortunately I did not loose it over that. But it showed me I could develop symptoms in this spectrum without necessarily having to be concerned.




With "imagining symptoms" I mean at least being worsened by my perseption of them. I probably should not have used this phrase, because many here had their symptoms not taking seriously with reference to this formulation. I am sorry.


Even though I try to think about the perception of my body and well-being objectively, this does not always help. My worst case hypothesis is that the clothes were compressed by me sitting on them with elasticity of the pile reduced, but it is unlikely and probably does not make a difference. Even if I measured or calculated the forces, the way the impact felt is still subjective and cannot be traced back.

I found it most important to get an outside perspective. This does not allow me get lost in a cycle of fear, but on the other hand also possibly leads to good advice if I should really need it.

Therefore I am very greatful for your answer and I have a bad conscience, because you have to read through this long text and others have had it worse without getting this support.

This whole "thing" (the last year) has really put things into perspective for me. I really think different now of what a fulfilling life might look like and what I can expect of myself and others. I see the value of human qualities much more clearly now. For that I am also greatful.

All the best to you.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:15 AM   #4
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It might be best to get a complete check up from your doctors for your symptoms.
Especially if you don't recall having any major head hits before this all started..
They may need to rule in or out other conditions that might cause your symptoms..
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:13 PM   #5
Mark in Idaho
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Evol,

I guess when you say 'infect,' you mean infection. I could not tell if it was a typo. In US usage, infect is a verb, not a noun. When a bacteria infects something, it gets an infection. Maybe just a translation error. Now I understand.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'from smart phone usage.' Making a call. Playing video games, EMF from radio waves, scrolling through various screens, watching videos.....?

You sound like you have a strong need to understand every little detail.
Here are some details.
If a 1 kg object falls from 1 meter onto a resilient surface/pillow/stack of clothes:
If the resilient surface absorbs/depresses 0.1 meters, the force is 98N or 9.8Gs.
If it is depressed 0.3 meters, the force of impact is 32N or 3.2 Gs.
If it falls from 0.5 meters and depresses the pillow 0.1 meters, the force is 49N or 4.9 Gs.
If it depresses the pillow 0.3 meters, the impact force is 16N or 1.6 Gs.
9.8N is 1 G if the object is 1 kg.

The brain endures 4 Gs just walking, even more when walking down steps.

Think of head and brain like a raw egg. If that raw egg can get dropped on a surface without breaking the shell or yolk, that is a low impact force.

You head and brain can tolerate many times more impact force than a raw egg.

Where have you learned your information about concussions? Do you research online? Have you seen a presentation, TED Talk, movie, ??
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:35 PM   #6
Evol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Idaho View Post
Evol,

I guess when you say 'infect,' you mean infection. I could not tell if it was a typo. In US usage, infect is a verb, not a noun. When a bacteria infects something, it gets an infection. Maybe just a translation error. Now I understand.

I still don't understand what you mean by 'from smart phone usage.' Making a call. Playing video games, EMF from radio waves, scrolling through various screens, watching videos.....?

You sound like you have a strong need to understand every little detail.
Here are some details.
If a 1 kg object falls from 1 meter onto a resilient surface/pillow/stack of clothes:
If the resilient surface absorbs/depresses 0.1 meters, the force is 98N or 9.8Gs.
If it is depressed 0.3 meters, the force of impact is 32N or 3.2 Gs.
If it falls from 0.5 meters and depresses the pillow 0.1 meters, the force is 49N or 4.9 Gs.
If it depresses the pillow 0.3 meters, the impact force is 16N or 1.6 Gs.
9.8N is 1 G if the object is 1 kg.

The brain endures 4 Gs just walking, even more when walking down steps.

Think of head and brain like a raw egg. If that raw egg can get dropped on a surface without breaking the shell or yolk, that is a low impact force.

You head and brain can tolerate many times more impact force than a raw egg.

Where have you learned your information about concussions? Do you research online? Have you seen a presentation, TED Talk, movie, ??


Thank you for your advice.


I am sorry, I am german born and obviously "infect" is a "false friend".


I do everyday tasks on my phone, as my PC is broken. I am aware that this has higher potential of inducing problems, but I try not to spend to much time in virtual reality anyway.


I am about to have a master in mathematics, I have a natural and a trained need to understand things. This is a sword with sharp edges on both sides.



I understand that the (de)acceleration of the head is it what does the damage. I appreciate the egg model, at least for linear accelerations. I have read that around 40G is on the lower spectrum of subconcussive hits, but the distance of deacceleration is most difficult to estimate in practice. Also rotational components need to be evaluated and difficult to estimate as I understand it.


I got informed not only out of fear but also out of interest. My sources range from medical advice over Ted talks to some medical papers. I find many dissonances. Still I find it reassuring to know. It leaves less room for imagination.
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:22 PM   #7
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You can use the Reply Button to save on visual overload & scrolling.
I had trouble locating it long ago as a new member..
Here is a image showing location..

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Old 02-07-2018, 06:44 PM   #8
Mark in Idaho
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Evol,

I still don't understand why you think your smart phone can cause symptoms."I do everyday tasks on my phone, as my PC is broken. I am aware that this has higher potential of inducing problems"

Yes, 40G is the low threshold of subconcussive impacts. BUT, subconcussive impacts are not individually a cause of injury. It takes hundreds and thousands to cause a problem. The key problem with subconcussive impacts is a person can suffer many in a short period of time without taking a break to let the cobwebs clear.

Rotational components are hard to quantify except they are not casual rotations. They are very fast as in degrees per millisecond.

Ted talks and medical papers use extremes, not normal occurrences. Millions of concussions happen each years. Less than 1% are of any concern unless they are sequential concussions in a short time.

Less than 15% of medically diagnosed and treated concussions have any symptoms past 6 weeks or so. BUT, only a small percent of concussions are ever medically diagnosed so that 15% number becomes much smaller.
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Old 02-07-2018, 09:16 PM   #9
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I feel an urge to turn away from screens, but it is diminishing.


Thank you for the statistics on occurrence of TBI. This really put things into perspective and relieves me of some of my responsibility to worry.

I have learnt that fear is very real and one has to repsect and take seriously the emotions of oneself and of others. Still I cannot help but find parts of my own hysteria amoral. I have read so many devastating stories, but also of so much strenght in dealing with them. I am very helpful you helped me in breaking the cycle of anxiety. However, my problems are so insignificant with repsect to many others.

I liked to think that I could distance myself from the information enough, now it seems arrogant of me. There are other subjects to be fanatic about.

Conclusively, I find the empathy and honesty in this forum very inspiring.From now on this I will try to focus on when instead I would be worrying about my health.

Best wishes
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:00 PM   #10
Mark in Idaho
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Yes, there are some devastating stories. Most of the tragedies you have read about have suffered thousands of subconcussive impacts or dozens of serious concussions. But, there also many who have endured the thousands of subconcussive impacts or dozens of serious concussions and never suffered any long term effects.

We have a local man who was just inducted into the National Football League Hall of Fame at 83 years old. He was an offensive lineman, one of the most violent positions in football. He is clear headed and speaks with dignity.

I am 63 years old. I suffered a severe concussion in 1965. I have struggled with persistent concussion symptoms ever since. I graduated from high school with honors despite a challenging year after a concussion from soccer. I have had successful businesses.

If you have the math skills to get a masters, your brain is doing far better than mine was doing in college.

Find a way to retrain your thoughts to stop these irrational obsessions. Get on with your life. If you find you ever have a struggle, find a way to work through it rather than let it take control of your life.
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