Mark, your views on PTSD are well informed but dreadfully narrow minded.

Here's my experience: On my 21st birthday I was drinking with a bunch of my friends, in a fit of celebration I attempted to do some sort of a gymnastic maneuver in my back yard, but I failed. I fell on my head. Then I got back up. This was my initial head injury.

Ever since that day whenever I would go out with my friends (or, a little bit later, whenever I'd see my friends at all) the spot that I hit on my head would start throbbing. I'd get panicky, my skin would become extremely pale, I'd start slurring my speech, and I'd become very much disconnected from reality. The next morning I would wake up with the absolute worst hangover you could possibly imagine - and yet I'd have had nothing to drink the night before.

This is a clear cut PTSD reaction, albeit a very uncommon one. Every time I went out with my friends my body relived the trauma of that first night when I injured myself in a perversely literal fashion. The blow to the head, the drunkenness, the hangover - It was a visceral flashback that would last from between 18 to 48 hours, depending at which point I was at in my recovery. All this from an attempted cartwheel. Something that no doctor would define as a traumatic event.

The truth is that almost anything can conceivably cause PTSD. And when PTSD does occur, physical injuries that occurred at the time that trauma was stored tend to not heal properly - it's like the mind gets frozen in time and that injury freezes itself right along with it. I'm sure you can understand how a direct correlation between PTSD and people's brains failing to put themselves back together following an impact isn't terribly difficult to establish, at the very least on a "yeah... that makes sense" level.

If you would like to see an excellent video on trauma from a leading mind in the therapy community, I would highly recommend this clip. It's about an hour long.

HI to all posting on this post.

I am a post concussion syndrome survivor. Can't even begin to relate how
many times I've had this. But I can tell you that the more times you get
a concussion the harder it is to recover. You lose a piece of yourself each
time. Thankfully I have been lucky enough to have good people around
helping me.

One of the things I've learned is that for the clumsy, dizziness and some
other off cordination feelings. Doing physical therapy was lots of help
for me.

I'm a very much person that will always have to be careful but love
life and will not let it get me down.

Donna

PCSMcGee,

It sounds more like you are having flashbacks/anxiety attacks tied to the event. PTSD symptoms would manifest more than just when you are out with your buddies. My PTSD can be triggered by a myriad of stimuli.

Sounds like you may have some unresolved neck injuries. If you do, the stress of the flashbacks can cause the muscles that connect from the back of the cervical vertebra to the occipital ( back) part of you skull can react with spasms. These spasms can cause headaches and the other symptoms you mention. Next time you have these symptoms, have someone try to massage your neck, especially up near your skull. If the muscles behind your ears are stiff, it sounds like it could be muscle tension headaches and such. The headaches and restless sleep will leave you feeling hung-over and groggy. You may even have tender spots all of the time, especially at the base of the skull.

Was your drinking the way you unwound? Do you find it difficult to unwind with your friends since you are not drinking?

Has anybody suggested relaxation techniques or other stress reducing exercises or systems?

Did you say earlier that you have given up alcohol and such?

You should, having a head injury at the same time as being drunk is a serious double injury.
Plus, drunkenness is an easy way to suffer another head injury.

When did you get wasted the first time in your life? How often did you get wasted before your 20th birthday? All of these factors can contribute to your recover and future residual symptoms.

Do you ever have irrational thoughts? Nightmares? panic attacks?

What kind of surface did you land on with your head? Just curious. Impact force does not directly relate to severity of injury. But, since you were so severely affected, you probably hit hard.

I will try to find some information on the video clip you suggested. It would not be possible for me to watch and listen to an hour long video. My brain would overload and crash hard. My auditory and visual processing is badly dysfunctional.

I just remembered something I learned about PCS vs MTBI etc.

PCS is a term used in the psychology and psychiatry fields. The term "syndrome" is used as the symptom is being studied and defined after seeing it in a population. Once the industry has decided to define it further, the symptom is called a "disorder" When it is a Disorder, it is listed in the DSM IV.

Post Concussion Disorder will be listed in the DSM V. Until then, it is Post Concussion Syndrome. Leave it to the psych community to want to define things their own way. Once it is listed in the Diagnostics and Statistics Manual, it gets a CPT (Current Procedural Terminology) code and it is easier to get an insurance company to pay for treatment.

Some use mTBI rather than MTBI. Since it is a subset of TBI, they use the lower case m. Same goes for qEEG. Quantitative Electro Encephelo Gram as a subset of Electro Encephelo Gram (EEG). QEEG is a good diagnostic tool when trying to understand MTBI. The courts and insurance companies are still slow to accept a qEEG but the research is overwhelming the naysayers. QEEG can also be used in Neurofeedback or neuro-biofeedback. Some therapists have achieved great results with neurofeedback for PCS, etc.


Donna, you are so right. I think I left most of myself behind back at each concussion. Not much of "me" left. I hope you are doing your best to protect the brains of your kids.

I just read the Whiplash@Kindling article by Dr. Scaer. I did not want to sit through his whole video. I am not impressed. He appears to be good at reading other's work then writing an encyclopedia about the subject. I have not found his writings published in any peer reviewed journal. Although he has read and cites many renowned specialists, he also does not understand the real world of physics. He improperly discussed G forces. He makes no mention of the differences between types of forces that effect the brain. Instead, he groups them all together. This does a great disservice to the reader and the author being cited.
It appears that his "research" is more anecdotal than scientific. His broad brush can easily cause one to misunderstand an issue. His BA in psychology is very old. The problem with psychologists is that if you lined all of the psychologists in America up end to end, they could still not reach a conclusion. They all want to reinvent the wheel to fit their view of the world. Even Neuro-Psychologists can't agree on a diagnosis.
The variable ideas in the psychological community is a great part of why it is so difficult for MTBI, PCS victims to get accurate and reliable diagnosis and treatment.
I have had three Neuro-Psych assessments, they all wanted to make exception to what the scores of the tests showed. The simple concept that high WAIS scores with low memory scores cannot coexists without a brain injury escapes them. They want to chalk up the discrepancy to psych factors.
A few psychs have sound understandings of PCS/MTBI. Dr. Glen Johnson is one of them. He has a web site www . tbiguide . com that has some great resources. Check it out.

I didn't say I only get flashbacks under those circumstances, I just said that I always got flashbacks under those circumstances. There's a difference.

I can be triggered by all sorts of things, but going out and seeing my friends was always the one thing that always, without fail used to get me really bad (though things have gotten MUCH better in the past 3 years). For the record, the most recent time I was triggered was about a week ago when an ATM machine ate my debit card. Before then... well, I don't remember the last time I was triggered before then, but it wasn't from seeing my friends that time either.

Feel free to think whatever you want, but I really believe you're approaching this trauma thing from far too mathematical a standpoint (I think you're often guilty of this, but you seem like a right-brained kind of person, so I guess that's only natural).

PTSD is a purely emotional response, and emotions are anything but mathematical. There is not a set formula that dictates the onset of PTSD nor is there a set formula that dictates how PTSD behaves when someone's nervous system has assumed that frozen/defensive stance. Everyone experiences different symptoms, because everyone's bodies are different and everyone's traumas are different.

Answering your questions in the order they were asked: No, no, I meditate regularly, yes, when I was 18, several, everyone has irrational thoughts, not really, used to, and a grass covered lawn. It was quite supple.

Once again Mark, I really feel like you're just too mathematical about all of this.

You are a very bright individual, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but you just strike me as a non-believer. And I'm not talking about religion here, I'm talking about how it appears that you accept every symptom you have now as being a symptom that you're going to have for the rest of your life, and should you injure yourself again tomorrow you'll accept your new symptoms as falling into that same boat. Medical literature backs you up on this, as it's often accepted that any symptoms that haven't been resolved within a year of the initial injury should be considered permanent. But this is a faulty assumption. It's wrong. There is no expiration date on healing.

This is a rambling reply, but all I'm trying to say here is that trying to figure out what someone's future is going to look like, or how someone's brain will react, is a fruitless venture. You can ask all the questions you want, but ultimately you have no idea what that person's life has in store for them. They may never heal, or they may heal tomorrow. They may not heal for 5 or 10 years, then find a therapy that works perfectly for them and get a whole new shot at a full life right then and there. You never know.

So I guess my point here, is that I would appreciate it if you worked to share your knowledge of the brain (which is vast) with others without TELLING them (or just me) what you believe is happening with them. Because you don't know what's going on between my ears, nor do you know what's going on between anyone else's ears. You can have ideas, and guesses, and thoughts (and I hope you share these), but what you actually KNOW about the future is almost nothing. Just like the rest of us.

I understand. I don't know if this helps, but this video is only about half an hour long:

http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/rscaer.htm

If you can get through the first 5 minutes or so I think you'll see him talking about the differences between your beliefs of trauma and mine.

As Dr Scaer said in one of his writing, His version of mind trauma only fits half of the diagnostic criteria of PTSD in the DSM IV. He appears to try to address the overly reactive individuals' symptoms to PTSD when they also can simply be from an injury to the impulse control and other stress response parts of the brain.

I have an injury to the part of the brain that controls adrenaline. I can overreact easily and quickly. It is called adrenal-cortical-hyperfunction. I can quickly get loud in a stressful situation. The stress over-response is a common part of PCS. It is a part of the diagnostic criteria for PCS.

Dr. Scaer may use the term PTSD but it sounds like he is talking about a common symptom of PCS.

PCSMcGee, it sounds like if you truly do suffer from PTSD, that it is not from the injury but rather from the stress and trauma of trying to live with the aftermath. What I mean is, after you were hurt, you developed symptoms that caused confusion and other stressors. As your brain tried to make sense of your symptoms and as the medical community discounted your symptoms, you mind got caught in the myriad of thoughts such as, Why doesn't anybody believe me? Are my symptoms real or am I going nuts? Why am I not getting better? Why can't I do what I used to do? These thoughts can definitely cause PTSD.

It is not uncommon for PTSD to be caused by the aftermath of an injury. There is a lot of stress on the victim after a head injury that can lead to PTSD. The injury itself is usually not the cause. Studies show that there is usually external stress triggers. People in car accidents have law suits that heap stress on them. Some have stress from the medical establishment. Other can be stressed by very minor situations since their stress tolerating mechanisms are not functioning properly. The changes in job capabilities and risk of losing a job can also add to the stress load.

Dr Scaer has tried to make the connection to the injury too strong. He sounds like he may tend to discount the physical nature of the injury and instead try to link the ongoing symptoms to a psychological component of the injury. That is a very common viewpoint. I have had many doctors say my symptoms are all in my head. They say that just because they cannot image them with an MRI, CT or other imaging tools, the symptoms must be psychological.

My point is that the studies show and the psychs that have assessed me say the one of the most common problems with PCS is the subject's need to learn coping skills, need to accept the current condition as long term, etc. The concept is that the acceptance of the injury and learning of coping skills reduces the stress levels thus facilitating better healing. The longer the subject fights the symptoms and does not modify their behavior or lifestyle, the longer it will take for healing. There are two therapies, the psycho-therapy to moderate the thinking issues, and the physical or occupational therapies to learn or relearn lost functions and to learn work-arounds and accommodations for the lost functions that are slow to heal.

I have to avoid many environments. They just over-stimulate my brain.

The over-stimulation is not a PTSD symptom. It is the result of injuries to the corpus colosum, the main switch board of the brain. Almost all impacting head injuries have some level of injury to the corpus colosum. The shearing and tearing of the connections between the corpus colosum and the different lobes of the brain creates a problem with the transfer of information that is common to PCS subject. It may have "some" of the same symptoms as PTSD but those symptoms are more related to PCS than they are related to PTSD.

I once had all of the symptoms of a heart attack, chest pain radiating up to the left jaw and left shoulder. The ER doc was very concerned and did all sorts of cardiac tests. My heart was fine but they wanted to "watch" me. I went to see my chiropractor and I had injured my back causing muscle spasms to the same areas that are effected by a heart attack. I was fine after some chiropractic treatments. The medical establishment was still concerned.

There is a saying, if you have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like a nail. Psychologists tend to define events around psychological causes or terms. Just because they can does not make their diagnosis correct. This is by far the most common area of confusion and disagreement between knowledgeable PCS professionals and those who think they understand our symptoms. I have two brothers who are psychology students. One is just an information junkie, the other is working on his doctorate. They tend to look at all of the worlds problems at psychological.

Dr Amen has a clinic that follows the concept of "heal the mind, heal the body." It sounds similar to Dr Scaer's concepts. Dr. Amen includes nutritional therapies which are valuable to all, whether it is PCS or PTSD.

Nobody knows which symptoms are permanent and which are just slow to heal. Accepting a long term healing prognosis aids in the healing process when the subject learns to live with their current condition rather than stress out waiting for everything to return to normal. There is no longer any "normal."

That's a well put response though, I feel I must point out, it's pretty obvious which hammer you have in your hand.

Rest assured that I'm living my life today, I just have loftier aspirations for tomorrow.

Witty comment. It shows that you have some intelligence to work with.

Dr Scaer is "trained ?" in psychology. He is also trained in neurology. He worked as a pain and rehabilitation specialtist. Such specialists usually are board certified as Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation or with the American Academy of Pain Management It appear he has neither certification, only Neurology.

One of the symptoms of PCS can be rigid thought processes. This is not so common in PTSD.

Dr Scaer has not been published in any peer reviewed journals as listed by PubMed. He lists a few publications on his own web site. I am disturbed by his credential as a Work Comp examiner. Work comp examiners are paid by the Work Comp insurance companies. This can easily explain his predisposition to psychological causation. His writings about whiplash show how biased he is in claiming whiplash injuries are more psychological than physiological. His basic denial of the laws of physics is to his own great discredit. He sounds like he has been bought and paid for by the insurance industry.

By his standards, your symptoms are all psychologically caused. He would want to look into your life history and find the traumatic events that predisposed you to the symptoms you currently experience.

Read his The Dissociation Capsule and his other articles. He starts with the hypothesis that some events have just too little force to cause physiological injury. In such cases, he attributes the symptoms to a cumulation of traumas through out life. These traumas, though having no residual physiological component, have a cumulative psychological component that builds to the current symptomatology. One of his explanations is based on his belief that delayed onset of symptoms is only of a psychological nature.

He completely ignores the FACT that neurologic tissues, specifically axons, are genetically programed to self destruct when they are malfunctioning. This is explained as a function of the Schwann cells that interleave the myeline membrane that insulates the axons. There is another source of this self destruct mechanism. The neural cells contain tRNA, that is transmitting RNA. tRNA tells the injured cells and those in close proximity to self destruct. This process is thought to be to prevent malfunctions that cause other damage out side the injured area and/or to prevent corrupted messages from being sent. Dr. Scaer ignores this process and instead attributes all delayed onset symptoms to psychosomatic causes or somatization. This a very broad brush to use but one often used to placate the insurance companies. it appears that he had set up a business/clinic model of getting reimbursed for treating the psychosomatic causes or somatization rather than treating physiological causes. His hammer is this treatment model. His clinic was primarily treating pain and stress issues, not cognitive and memory issues.

The studies show that this methodology APPEARS to work but in reality, except in the pain cases, many patients just get frustrated and discontinue pursuing further treatment or diagnosis.

Many with the memory and cognitive problems, if they can not maintain a job productively, end up burdening society as homeless, substance abusers, and/or prison inmates. The insurance companies do not care as long as they do not have to pay out.

We as tax payers and members of society SHOULD CARE.

At this point you seem like a brick wall so your long post on Doctors. i'm not even gonna read anymore,when it comes to PCS the doctors ''most of them'' seem like the idiots I had one tell me you know more than me about it,so Mark you sit and think that you will never recover thats you but as for me i will recover and your words are a mute point to me,sorry to be a *** but your posts are anything but helpfull 95% of the time there just depressing open up some damn.